rental concerns

[CarolMN]

Personally, I don't like walking at 11 months, and I'm not too thrilled with those members who book a sought-after reservation in order to rent it. I have almost zero sympathy for those who cannot get into a popular resort at 7 months.

Even so, I cannot think of a way for DVCMC to legally stop walking without creating negative consequences for other Members, or without creating extra work/cost (in which case "not gonna happen").

So I say, "Better the devil we know than the devil we don't". Be careful what you wish for. We all live under the same booking rules. We'll have to be content with that.

P.S. This topic comes up periodically, and while it's always interesting to read all the various points of view, there truly isn't anything new on the topic. YMMV.

 

[Brian Noble]

I cannot think of a way for DVCMC to legally stop walking without creating negative consequences for other Members

Exactly. For example, Wyndham allows you to add days to a reservation, but to drop days you have to cancel the entire reservation and rebook it. This prevents walking, but it also risks losing the reservation if there is no other open inventory.

 

[Sandisw]

How are you that confident that any particular broker doesn't own any contracts? We know for a fact that the board sponsor purchases a significant number of contracts through their "Instant Sale" program. We also know for a fact that the sponsor operates one of the top-two DVC rental sites as well, under the same corporate umbrella. I'm not suggesting the board sponsor is a corporate renter, but it would be quite easy for another rental site operator to purchase contracts under a separate LLC, one that isn’t public-facing, and rent them out for profit.

Vacation point rental brokers aren’t regulated in any way, shape, or form by anyone, so there’s no way to know for sure who owns any points that are being proffered for rental.

And I'm not buying that random owners are somehow landing so many AKV values, just by picking up walker scraps...

10 out of 18 of the highly-coveted AKV values all somehow grabbed as walker scraps for the same calendar day, by people who grabbed them solely for the purpose of renting them, then miraculously ending up on the same rental broker website?

Just to share from my own info that I gathered, those instant sale prices are well below the ROFR threshold and think the thought was they would be taken in ROFR…granted, the last year, that program may have not worked in the same way…with ROFR basically dead.
We contemplated it but sold it for a few dollars more…and we were encouraged to at least try to list for a bit more than that as they were pretty confident we’d get the low price we wanted….and we did…and we did get ROFRd…so, not sure that the program gets a lot of takers.

I know it’s not a popular mindset, but if those reservations are booked across multiple memberships, which are owned by different owners, then just seeing them does not really mean anything…

I mean, if I decide to rent, I will also use a broker, and the same one, so I guess I don’t see it completely out of the realm to see that?

Regardless, to get 10 rooms for the same night for something like AKV value still takes a lot of work….so more power to whomever spent that much time if it is the same entity or individual doing it., so I personally think it was indeed multiple people grabbing on different memberships…even if they were all connected in some way.

I definitely think we have more owners renting than years before and even more who rent enough to cover dues of ownership…or for other reasons…but still can’t say that it bothers me what others do because I like having it as an option.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Regardless, to get 10 rooms for the same night for something like AKV value still takes a lot of work….

Yes, yes it does...

 

[DaveNan]

Do not underestimate some people's application of technology. "Professional" high volume /premium unit renters, whether they are individuals or companies might have a technological advantage beyond fast computers and fast internet. They could have studied the DVC webpages and underlying calls and written scripts to execute automatically. The script could use a time based process to start at exactly 8:00:00.00000. The scripts can automatically select rooms and hit "continue" with no user interaction. They are not reserving the rooms, their computers are executing programs at the exact moment to reserve the room. A person at a keyboard will never beat them. There is nothing in doing this, that violates the POS. If there is money to be made, someone will develop a way to take advantage of the situation. There are tons of scripts (automatically executed internet programs) used to get hard to find merchandise to resell it at a profit PS4 and XBox). Scripts to get ADR's...... Scripts to get concert tickets..... I expect one or more of these renters has written a script to book rooms.

 

[Brian Noble]

There is nothing in doing this, that violates the POS.

It's possible that the web site terms & conditions forbid screen scraping/bot use/direct API calls, but those kinds of restrictions are hard to enforce. For example, Ticketmaster has such rules, but that doesn't stop anyone.

 

[JackosinDIS]

Do not underestimate some people's application of technology. "Professional" high volume /premium unit renters, whether they are individuals or companies might have a technological advantage beyond fast computers and fast internet. They could have studied the DVC webpages and underlying calls and written scripts to execute automatically.

I’m almost certain that some renters are using such technology. There are people on some sites (came across one post earlier today in fact), advertising confirmed reservations for value/ club studios for pretty much all of the major holiday dates next year. To get one of those dates is fairly lucky… to have 4 reservations across marathon weekend, May 4th, Independence Day and labor day is not a coincidence!

 

[bobbiwoz]

Just saw your post. Nothing to add to it but just wanted to say: GO PHILS!

Go Phillies!

As far as renting, we did so twice through a broker. This was pre Covid, and I doubt we ever would have points to rent again.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

How are you that confident that any particular broker doesn't own any contracts? We know for a fact that the board sponsor purchases a significant number of contracts through their "Instant Sale" program. We also know for a fact that the sponsor operates one of the top-two DVC rental sites as well, under the same corporate umbrella. I'm not suggesting the board sponsor is a corporate renter, but it would be quite easy for another rental site operator to purchase contracts under a separate LLC, one that isn’t public-facing, and rent them out for profit.

Vacation point rental brokers aren’t regulated in any way, shape, or form by anyone, so there’s no way to know for sure who owns any points that are being proffered for rental.

And I'm not buying that random owners are somehow landing so many AKV values, just by picking up walker scraps...

10 out of 18 of the highly-coveted AKV values all somehow grabbed as walker scraps for the same calendar day, by people who grabbed them solely for the purpose of renting them, then miraculously ending up on the same rental broker website?

I encourage anyone who does not enjoy the current status quo to write and complain to Disney. Rental sites listing hundreds of the hardest to get reservations indicates to me that the system is broken, and will likely only get worse. To the person who hypothesized that the mega renters are using some type of automated system to constantly hit the DVC website to grab these reservations as soon as they appear, I’ll bet that’s not far off the truth (given how hard it is to grab, ro fexample AKL value studios), and also given that we know these types of tools exist, on websites that are rightly blacklisted from this forum.

If Disney gets enough complaints in writing they’ll act. Unhappy owners unable to book hard to get rooms, even at 11 months, because of mega renting companies, means less people buying DVC direct (and I guarantee the mega renting companies aren’t buying DVC direct).

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Do not underestimate some people's application of technology. "Professional" high volume /premium unit renters, whether they are individuals or companies might have a technological advantage beyond fast computers and fast internet. They could have studied the DVC webpages and underlying calls and written scripts to execute automatically. The script could use a time based process to start at exactly 8:00:00.00000. The scripts can automatically select rooms and hit "continue" with no user interaction. They are not reserving the rooms, their computers are executing programs at the exact moment to reserve the room. A person at a keyboard will never beat them. There is nothing in doing this, that violates the POS. If there is money to be made, someone will develop a way to take advantage of the situation. There are tons of scripts (automatically executed internet programs) used to get hard to find merchandise to resell it at a profit PS4 and XBox). Scripts to get ADR's...... Scripts to get concert tickets..... I expect one or more of these renters has written a script to book rooms.

Scripts like this aren’t even theoretical. There are (or at least was, I haven’t checked in a while) websites, thankfully blacklisted from this forum, that offered a subscription type service that did this for you. Of course, it also required you to give them your DVC login, and was quite sketchy, but it is definite proof that these types of tools exist.

 

[Brian Noble]

If Disney gets enough complaints in writing they’ll act.

They might, or they might not. From Disney's perspective, those points are sold, the fees are being paid, and who uses it and for what purpose isn't really that important. It depends a little bit on what that letter says.

"I'm upset" is one thing. "I'm upset and I'm not buying so much as one single additional point from you until you get spec renting under control" is likely to get Disney's attention more quickly.

Of course, that also means you have to resist addonitis, so don't cry wolf on this one!

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

They might, or they might not. From Disney's perspective, those points are sold, the fees are being paid, and who uses it and for what purpose isn't really that important. It depends a little bit on what that letter says.

"I'm upset" is one thing. "I'm upset and I'm not buying so much as one single additional point from you until you get spec renting under control" is likely to get Disney's attention more quickly.

Of course, that also means you have to resist addonitis, so don't cry wolf on this one!

I forget the stat, but someone at some point on these boards posted a spec about the number of direct purchases that are “add-ons” versus new buyers, and a larger than you would expect share (well than I expected anyway) were add-ons. I think Disney cares about the customer satisfaction of their direct point owners since a happy customer buys more points.

 

[Genie+]

When people see long lists of confirmed rentals that doesn’t even include all the reservations that have already been taken. So seeing 500 reservations listed over 11 months of dates - that’s just what remains. You’d need to track and count unique reservations. There’s no denying usage patterns are different between personal and business.

 

[AZMermaid]

I did email my concerns with high volume confirmed reservation renters for VGC and got a good reply back. It wasn’t anything super telling, but I felt heard and like they were aware of the problem. I suggested a limit of reservations where the lead guest wasn’t the owner to something like 5 a year. The exact number isn’t super important to me and yes, like always this would affect some “normal people” at times. So is it perfect no. Can you rent to a group of two and keep your name as the lead as a workaround, yes. But it’s something.

 

[Matty B13]

I did email my concerns with high volume confirmed reservation renters for VGC and got a good reply back. It wasn’t anything super telling, but I felt heard and like they were aware of the problem. I suggested a limit of reservations where the lead guest wasn’t the owner to something like 5 a year. The exact number isn’t super important to me and yes, like always this would affect some “normal people” at times. So is it perfect no. Can you rent to a group of two and keep your name as the lead as a workaround, yes. But it’s something.

There is an easy way to go around this rule by just leaving the owners name on the reservation, but this would affect people who need the max room occupancy limit. But this would be an easy rule for DVC to implement and keep an eye on.

 

[crisi]

Personally, I don't like walking at 11 months, and I'm not too thrilled with those members who book a sought-after reservation in order to rent it. I have almost zero sympathy for those who cannot get into a popular resort at 7 months.

Even so, I cannot think of a way for DVCMC to legally stop walking without creating negative consequences for other Members, or without creating extra work/cost (in which case "not gonna happen").

So I say, "Better the devil we know than the devil we don't". Be careful what you wish for. We all live under the same booking rules. We'll have to be content with that.

P.S. This topic comes up periodically, and it's always interesting to read all the various points of view, there truly isn't anything new on the topic. YMMV.

If it were me running the zoo, I'd not let you drop days from the start of the reservation until - oh say the 9th month or something - you'd be able to walk if you had a ton of points you were willing to tie up for one reservation. I think that would be a doable systems change - not terribly expensive. Of course, you could always cancel the whole thing. I don't think that would have a ton of negative consequences for anyone but the walkers.

 

[crisi]

It's possible that the web site terms & conditions forbid screen scraping/bot use/direct API calls, but those kinds of restrictions are hard to enforce. For example, Ticketmaster has such rules, but that doesn't stop anyone.

They almost certainly do - unless Disney has an open API into their systems to allow access to certain types of information. Bots/screen scraping and apis from external sources all put load on systems that, unless Disney is getting a benefit from, they don't want to pay for. But you are right, unless you are willing to spend a lot of time reviewing the traffic and blocking IP addresses, its hard to stop.

 

[crisi]

There is an easy way to go around this rule by just leaving the owners name on the reservation, but this would affect people who need the max room occupancy limit. But this would be an easy rule for DVC to implement and keep an eye on.

And then the member needs to stop by the front desk during the stay and check in. I'd amend the five rooms to be five when the member isn't also present - so if you want to book four studios for friends to go to Disney with you, you could.

 

[Philsfan77]

Some may not like what I'm about to say, but I look at this very simply. If someone has purchased a contract for tens of thousands of dollars to obtain points at a resort, then in my eyes, they can do with them what they want. If they want to use them to book a 7 day trip at 11 months out and sell it as they know that they wont be able to go this year (due to any circumstances) then good luck to them. The idea that people should 'think about those people who want to book at 7 months' is simply naive.
If you want to be guaranteed a resort at a certain time of year, buy the points there. It's pretty simple. If you don't, then you have no right to whinge or 'feel frustrated' as you have no right to those dates, rooms or bookings - it just screams entitlement.

Agree 100% on the 7-month thing.

Do not underestimate some people's application of technology. "Professional" high volume /premium unit renters, whether they are individuals or companies might have a technological advantage beyond fast computers and fast internet. They could have studied the DVC webpages and underlying calls and written scripts to execute automatically. The script could use a time based process to start at exactly 8:00:00.00000. The scripts can automatically select rooms and hit "continue" with no user interaction. They are not reserving the rooms, their computers are executing programs at the exact moment to reserve the room. A person at a keyboard will never beat them. There is nothing in doing this, that violates the POS. If there is money to be made, someone will develop a way to take advantage of the situation. There are tons of scripts (automatically executed internet programs) used to get hard to find merchandise to resell it at a profit PS4 and XBox). Scripts to get ADR's...... Scripts to get concert tickets..... I expect one or more of these renters has written a script to book rooms.

Bingo...this is exactly what is done for ADR's (seems Disney is clamping down on these given a few have closed up shop), and i feel pretty strongly this is what Standby skippers uses and why most people can't get a ride like slinky dog until after 11AM even though they feel like they are logging in right at 7:00:00 as well. The one thing the genie+ glitches the last 2 weeks showed me clearly is standby skippers is good at what it does, because in those nanoseconds when the system restarted and worked, they were snagging reservations (slinky dog was out to 3:05 the one day, yet the system for us common folk wasn't working until after 9AM) and virtual queues. Even the 3 times I got it to populate a genie+ return time during one of the glitches, by the time I selected accept, the system had crapped out again, but the return time for slinky kept pushing out further.

 

[drusba]

Note that DVC could actually do away with walking easily. The current system where you can reserve 7 nights at 11-months out (home resort)/7-months (other resort) from arrival date was not the original rule that was in place for many years. Under that original rule, a member could not make a reservation until 11/7 months out from date of departure from a DVC resort.

There was a form of walking that some did but it could easily be unsuccessful. Members would book the first night of their desired stay 11-months out, e.g. on October 23 book the night of Sep 22 in the next year with a Sep 23 departure date. Next day, they would try to add Sep 23 with a Sep 24 departure date, etc. That process could easily fail because anyone else could book that second (etc) day for the same room at the same time the member was trying to get it.

If DVC returned to that system, then under the demand that exists now, rooms like BWV standard and AKV value and club level studios would likely be virtually impossible to get by anyone for multiple successive days. However, DVC, when it gets a lot of complaints about something does not usually consider finding the member-friendliest solution but instead the easiest one that simply resolves the complaints being made, and for it to return to the past reservation system would do that without members having a basis to complain about the change because it is one that had already been used in the past. Thus, those calling for members to make massive complaints to DVC about walking may want to consider that possibility before leveling such complaints.