rental concerns

[KAT4DISNEY]

Since dues are based on calendar year, your MFs are the same whether you choose MB or not. I suspect the points hit your account because that's the "normal process". The MB shows as a manual adjustment in the transaction history. The rebate check is like any other rebate check that arrives in the mail from a manufacturer (not "instant rebate").

They do refer to it as a rebate (not rental income). The fine print states this in terms of tax treatment:

View attachment 801323
The term "rebate" is specifically addressed in IRS Pub 551 (page 5):

Yes, the dues calculated are the same because the resort is open but what they are applicable towards are different depending on the UY. Technically each UY is paying dues for different points when purchasing directly and the date of the purchase makes a difference. If a Feb UY had taken advantage of this and sold back their 2023 points the dues that were calculated from the time they purchased thru the end of the year would have been for 2023 points. If we say that was a Sept 1st contract date then that Feb UY will be paying 4 months dues on those 2023 points and also be paying 1 month of dues on them next year (1 month applies to the 2023). A Dec UY who received 2022 points (their current) and for example signing on Sept 1 was paying 3 months of dues on the 2022 points and 1 month dues on their 2023 points. The Dec UY got a "rebate", using DVC's terminology, on the 2022 points, paid 3 months of dues on those particular points while Feb paid 5 months of dues on the 2023 points they "rebated". None of this affects taxes - it's just how it works in the calendar year in conjunctions with a UY.

For tax purposes it's expenses paid and income received in the calendar year. If they determined it's a rebate and not rental income well, consult your own tax advisor.

 

[kilik64]

I don't get the gnashing of teeth and consternation regarding rentals.

Points are points, rooms got booked with points, someone is staying in the room, who cares who it is. The resorts are sold to be at capacity, the amount of points sold equals the amount of points need to rent every room, every day of the year.

If you are waiting until 5 or 6 months out to book, that's on you when what you'd like to have is gone. Go stay at SSR (it's rather lovely with the latest reno, my family loved it!) as its known as resort of last resort for a reason.

Just reads as sour grapes to me. If you're not blaming "renters" you'd be blaming something else.

 

[GoingSince1990]

I don't get the gnashing of teeth and consternation regarding rentals.

Points are points, rooms got booked with points, someone is staying in the room, who cares who it is. The resorts are sold to be at capacity, the amount of points sold equals the amount of points need to rent every room, every day of the year.

If you are waiting until 5 or 6 months out to book, that's on you when what you'd like to have is gone. Go stay at SSR (it's rather lovely with the latest reno, my family loved it!) as its known as resort of last resort for a reason.

Just reads as sour grapes to me. If you're not blaming "renters" you'd be blaming something else.

If I am looking for a reservation at 5 months out, I am thrilled if SSR is available and will happily book it, as opposed to going on a rant about renters. Maybe I am too easily pleased.

 

[AZMermaid]

Although I’ve rented my points and agree that anyone can rent…. When I see the same owner have 3-4 Aulani hotel rooms booked for dedicated rental at 11 months when there are only 8 of them…. I do feel annoyed. And I don't even want those rooms! But also try to tell myself that if an owner found a renter who wanted 4 hotel rooms at 11 months… it’d be the same thing. But it somehow feels different to grab them up.

 

[intamin]

Although I’ve rented my points and agree that anyone can rent…. When I see the same owner have 3-4 Aulani hotel rooms booked for dedicated rental at 11 months when there are only 8 of them…. I do feel annoyed. And I don't even want those rooms! But also try to tell myself that if an owner found a renter who wanted 4 hotel rooms at 11 months… it’d be the same thing. But it somehow feels different to grab them up.

Feels like it's just the principle of the matter. Same for walking reservations. While technically allowed it just feels.. wrong and is detrimental to all other owners at a resort who also would like to get some of these coveted rooms.

 

[Philsfan77]

Feels like it's just the principle of the matter. Same for walking reservations. While technically allowed it just feels.. wrong and is detrimental to all other owners at a resort who also would like to get some of these coveted rooms.

I think this is really the issue for some people. Walking already triggers a lot of conversations about modifying DVC policies on booking, which will ultimately restrict all owners. Now it's becoming pretty clear that the walkers are also the renters, which is leading to even more of these threads and discussions here and on the dvc facebook groups. Roughly 44% of reservations on the largest DVC confirmed rental brokers site are BWV standard view studios and AKV-value studios. Arguably the 2 hardest rooms to get at 11-months and 2 of the lowest inventory categories make up an insanely large share of the 1300+ confirmed rentals that one site has. Flip side is Poly standard view (largest studio category for DVC) makes up 1% of all rentals on that site.

I am just glad we typically stay in 2-bedrooms and don't have to worry about this.

 

[GrumpyInPhilly]

I think this is really the issue for some people. Walking already triggers a lot of conversations about modifying DVC policies on booking, which will ultimately restrict all owners. Now it's becoming pretty clear that the walkers are also the renters, which is leading to even more of these threads and discussions here and on the dvc facebook groups. Roughly 44% of reservations on the largest DVC confirmed rental brokers site are BWV standard view studios and AKV-value studios. Arguably the 2 hardest rooms to get at 11-months and 2 of the lowest inventory categories make up an insanely large share of the 1300+ confirmed rentals that one site has. Flip side is Poly standard view (largest studio category for DVC) makes up 1% of all rentals on that site.

I am just glad we typically stay in 2-bedrooms and don't have to worry about this.

Just saw your post. Nothing to add to it but just wanted to say: GO PHILS!

 

[Philsfan77]

Just saw your post. Nothing to add to it but just wanted to say: GO PHILS!

Keep it Rolling!

 

[pianomanzano]

Roughly 44% of reservations on the largest DVC confirmed rental brokers site are BWV standard view studios and AKV-value studios.

Hopefully these owners walking these reservations (which is probably more so for the value studios) are getting paid more than the normal rental rate. Too much effort to book value studios to only get paid 16 or 18/pt when you can easily get 23-25/pt for a value studio renting it out yourself.

 

[pianomanzano]

Just saw your post. Nothing to add to it but just wanted to say: GO PHILS!

7 more Topper!

-south philly phan

 

[CarolMN]

I am just glad we typically stay in 2-bedrooms and don't have to worry about this.

You do if you are a BWV owner.

Fortunately, those who routinely book the 1-bedrooms don't have to worry too much about it, though.

 

[Philsfan77]

You do if you are a BWV owner.

Fortunately, those who routinely book the 1-bedrooms don't have to worry too much about it, though.

This is true! Forgot about them being all lockoffs there.

 

[meekey7197]

That is insane and really frustrating

Agreed. That’s bananas…

 

[pixieprincess925]

This is true! Forgot about them being all lockoffs there.

Yes! I book 2-bedrooms because of the size/ages of my family. But I'm being blocked from standard view on my BWV contact (usually travel in the fall). And I don't always know my plans at 11 months on the dot, so I have to make adjustments to my schedules or pay the premium to have views of trees

 

[LawrenceFamily]

Some may not like what I'm about to say, but I look at this very simply. If someone has purchased a contract for tens of thousands of dollars to obtain points at a resort, then in my eyes, they can do with them what they want. If they want to use them to book a 7 day trip at 11 months out and sell it as they know that they wont be able to go this year (due to any circumstances) then good luck to them. The idea that people should 'think about those people who want to book at 7 months' is simply naive.
If you want to be guaranteed a resort at a certain time of year, buy the points there. It's pretty simple. If you don't, then you have no right to whinge or 'feel frustrated' as you have no right to those dates, rooms or bookings - it just screams entitlement.

 

[DanCali]

Some may not like what I'm about to say, but I look at this very simply. If someone has purchased a contract for tens of thousands of dollars to obtain points at a resort, then in my eyes, they can do with them what they want. If they want to use them to book a 7 day trip at 11 months out and sell it as they know that they wont be able to go this year (due to any circumstances) then good luck to them. The idea that people should 'think about those people who want to book at 7 months' is simply naive.
If you want to be guaranteed a resort at a certain time of year, buy the points there. It's pretty simple. If you don't, then you have no right to whinge or 'feel frustrated' as you have no right to those dates, rooms or bookings - it just screams entitlement.

What you say about 7 months is totally fine.

The problem I notice is that there are room types that are hardly available at 11 months because they are walked and, on top of that, many are showing up as rentals. AKV Value studio is a classic example, but probably BWV Standard and even BLT Standard views are often walked. If you look on Redweek, there are currently 435 rental listings listings at Jambo house (no filters - all room types and sizes) and of those 352 listings are for value studios, many listings broken up as 1-night stays... that's a pretty crazy ratio especially given that there are just 18 value studios and over 100 non-value studios just at Jambo. It also appears that almost all of those listings (and for other DVC resorts as well with scarce room types) are uploaded by the same rental brokerage. It's the same situation with BWV - out of 200 total listings, there are 170 for studio with "varies" (i.e., standard) view and almost all uploaded by the same entity (there are only about 50 "standard" view studios and about 200 preferred/boardwalk view studios).

I don't know how this happens because the effort to get a value room at AKV even once is substantial - you need to see on what days it may be available at 11 months out (usually, because of walking it's not even there) and then be quick enough to grab that one single room right at 8am. And then you may need to walk it for some time. So maybe they pick up the rooms as walkers drop them? Maybe they even have a computer checking for dropped days every few minutes and picking those up?

I don't begrudge an owner using some of their points to rent anything they want at their home resort or elsewhere. In fact, I plan on doing it myself with 2-3 reservations a year at various places when I have extra points. But what I see on Redweek seems, at least to me, like a very organized commercial operation if there ever was one... I may be totally off base and maybe there's a good explanation how one brokerage controls so much of the scarcest inventory.

I'll just add that some of the walking I observe (not AKV or BWV, but BLT Standard View studio for example) is often "unnecessary" in the sense that what you want may not be available at 11 months out but it's available 10 days later after those days are dropped. But, because of that situation, owners who would not ordinarily walk also start doing it, fearing of missing out, which makes availability worse.

 

[Sandisw]

What you say about 7 months is totally fine.

The problem I notice is that there are room types that are hardly available at 11 months because they are walked and, on top of that, many are showing up as rentals. AKV Value studio is a classic example, but probably BWV Standard and even BLT Standard views are often walked. If you look on Redweek, there are currently 435 rental listings listings at Jambo house (no filters - all room types and sizes) and of those 352 listings are for value studios, many listings broken up as 1-night stays... that's a pretty crazy ratio especially given that there are just 18 value studios and over 100 non-value studios just at Jambo. It also appears that almost all of those listings (and for other DVC resorts as well with scarce room types) are uploaded by the same rental brokerage. It's the same situation with BWV - out of 200 total listings, there are 170 for studio with "varies" (i.e., standard) view and almost all uploaded by the same entity (there are only about 50 "standard" view studios and about 200 preferred/boardwalk view studios).

I don't know how this happens because the effort to get a value room at AKV even once is substantial - you need to see on what days it may be available at 11 months out (usually, because of walking it's not even there) and then be quick enough to grab that one single room right at 8am. And then you may need to walk it for some time. So maybe they pick up the rooms as walkers drop them? Maybe they even have a computer checking for dropped days every few minutes and picking those up?

I don't begrudge an owner using some of their points to rent anything they want at their home resort or elsewhere. In fact, I plan on doing it myself with 2-3 reservations a year at various places when I have extra points. But what I see on Redweek seems, at least to me, like a very organized commercial operation if there ever was one... I may be totally off base and maybe there's a good explanation how one brokerage controls so much of the scarcest inventory.

I'll just add that some of the walking I observe (not AKV or BWV, but BLT Standard View studio for example) is often "unnecessary" in the sense that what you want may not be available at 11 months out but it's available 10 days later after those days are dropped. But, because of that situation, owners who would not ordinarily walk also start doing it, fearing of missing out, which makes availability worse.

Is it possible that it’s a brokerage that is like a David’s or DVC Rental in that they do it on behalf of many owners? I don’t go on Redweek.

Also, if many are for one night, those ones would seem like someone picking things up when they show back up?

There is certainly something none of us can know….whose the actual owner of those and how many memberships were these booked on?

I wonder how many owners who rent a lot keep their name on it until the end and just rent for once less in occupancy?

 

[DanCali]

Is it possible that it’s a brokerage that is like a David’s or DVC Rental in that they do it on behalf of many owners? I don’t frequent Redweek.

Also, if many are for one night, those ones would seem like someone picking things up when they show back up?

There is certainly something none of us can know….whose the actual owner of those and how many memberships were these booked on?

And, the other piece that we can’t know is how many advertised ones end up actually rented? I wonder how many owners who rent a lot keep their name on it until the end and just rent for once less in occupancy?

I wasn't sure I can post the name but since you threw out a couple of names I will say it's https://rentals.*******.com/page/2/ (please remove if not allowed to mention that in this context). I didn't check deeply but the listings on Redweek probably mirror what they have listed on their web page under "confirmed reservations" - it's so many of them that they must use some API process to transfer the data to Redweek. You can see much of that info re AKV value studios and BWV standard studios on that broker's website too.

The number of 1 to 3-day reservations does suggest that maybe they pick those up somehow but, to do that consistently well, that would require lurking on the DVC website 24 hours a day, so that's why I suggested perhaps they do it with some automated process. The sheer number of available reservations makes me believe this is highly organized since for individual owners to go through all that is a huge effort just for an extra $5/pt on 9-14pt individual reservations. But whether it's the broker or actual owners, that seems like a great amount of scarce inventory going to rentals just for the sake of getting $27/pt on those rooms. And this leaves owners, and even the occasional renters, with much less availability.

 

[drusba]

If, on a rental site, there are a lot of one day, two day, and some three-day reservations for BWV standard view studios, AKV value studio, and possibly AKV club level studios, those reservations are likely not due to walkers but to members who are grabbing something as walkers pass through. As to making original reservations right at 8 a.m. eastern 11-months out for any of those three rooms, the professional renters would have the same problem as everyone else trying to make a reservation. Year round, those rooms fill within nanoseconds after 8 a.m. at 11-months out. Walkers, to succeed, would have to be making the attempt daily and often for a long time to make a ressie and hope they get lucky, and walkers are not likely looking for only one to three nights.

If all you want is one to three nights (to do a rental later) it is actually easier to reserve one of those rooms a little after 11-months out . That is because one or two nights will often open up for a short time soon after 11-months out as result of walkers passing by and dropping days.

And the sites offering those reservations must have differing practices. For example, a sponsor of this site, DVCRentalStore.com, carries a lot of confirmed reservations for rent. I went through a list of about 430 of them about two weeks ago, and the listings spanned over an almost 11-month period, and it did not appear to have many that one could conclude are ones provided by professional renters. There were a lot of reservations that started less than 31-days out, which I assume would not be from professional renters, since the failure to rent would likely mean the points are lost because of the holding rule. Also, the reservations were not heavily concentrated in the very high demand times, e.g., there were no reservations for Marathon weekend in January. Moreover, about 30% of the reservations were for OKW, SSR and Kidani, resorts that most often are open at 7-months out. Few were reservations for hard to get rooms at 11-months out, e.g., for the combination of BWV standard view studios, AKV value studios, and AKV club level studios, there was only one reservation in the entire list (for a BWV standard studio). The list far more created the impression that most of the renters were people who made reservations that they learned later they could not use, or were likely members trying to recover some of their dues.

I also have seen comments that DVC should go after those brokers and shut down their operations. For the ones I check once in awhile, DVCRentalStore, David's and rarely a couple others, there is no legal basis for DVC/DVD to sue them. Contrary to claims asserted by some, they are not organizations that own a lot points that they are renting, which could give DVC/DVD a basis to pursue them as a member using the reservations for a commercial purpose. Their business is one as a broker, which acts to match people who want to rent a room with members who desire to rent. and it is the member who makes the reservation, not the broker. They have no contracts with DVC/DVD and DVC/DVD lacks a legal basis to sue them.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Contrary to claims asserted by some, they are not organizations that own a lot points that they are renting, which could give DVC/DVD a basis to pursue them as a member using the reservations for a commercial purpose. Their business is one as a broker, which acts to match people who want to rent a room with members who desire to rent. and it is the member who makes the reservation, not the broker. They have no contracts with DVC/DVD and DVC/DVD lacks a legal basis to sue them.

How are you that confident that any particular broker doesn't own any contracts? We know for a fact that the board sponsor purchases a significant number of contracts through their "Instant Sale" program. We also know for a fact that the sponsor operates one of the top-two DVC rental sites as well, under the same corporate umbrella. I'm not suggesting the board sponsor is a corporate renter, but it would be quite easy for another rental site operator to purchase contracts under a separate LLC, one that isn’t public-facing, and rent them out for profit.

Vacation point rental brokers aren’t regulated in any way, shape, or form by anyone, so there’s no way to know for sure who owns any points that are being proffered for rental.

And I'm not buying that random owners are somehow landing so many AKV values, just by picking up walker scraps...

One of the bigger rental brokers has roughly 1200 confirmed rentals on their site. Of those 1200 they have 433 (over 33%) are tied to Jambo house. Of those 433 at Jambo House 367 are AKV values. I’ve been following this for a few months now and a lot go live on the site shortly after the 11 month window. There are a couple stretches where 7-10 values are listed on their site covering 1 day. When there are only 18 of them, and one rental broker has 10 listed for a given date it more or less confirms your suspicions.

10 out of 18 of the highly-coveted AKV values all somehow grabbed as walker scraps for the same calendar day, by people who grabbed them solely for the purpose of renting them, then miraculously ending up on the same rental broker website?