Refused entry with service dog

[mrsklamc]

I feel they should have been allowed to stay, but I feel they should be required to provide documentation that the dog was trained. I know we were NOT allowed to ask for any documentation, it was all on the owners word.

That is federal law; however a service dog can be charged for any damages done so you could have sued for pain & suffering I would guess. ( I assume medical was covered by your employer.)

 

[Christine]

First, let me say that I feel you dad was treated horribly and I feel bad for him. Because I work for DoD, we have several Wounded Warrior employees who have service dogs that come to work and I think it's a wonderful program. I can't imagine any establishment refusing people; however, there are a few questions I'd just like to pose to the group on this discussion.

At what point does a service dog's presence violate another customer's own issues? For instance, the OP states that she finally heard from a restaurant employee that several other customers complained that they would leave "if that dog came in." A small number of people have severe dog phobias that are quite stressful to them. Additionally, there are folks who are fairly allergic to animal dander. I'm one of them. Not to dogs, thank goodness, but VERY allergic to cats. Granted, the risk of allergic reaction here is minimal as the dog does not live in the restaurant and spread dander; however, it can be very distressing if you are allergic or phobic and seated next to the object of your misery. It appears that we had several patrons on hand that had a problem with the dog for one reason or another. They were already there and eating. They didn't have the choice to see the dog first and then make the decision to eat elsewhere. Does this man's disability with PTSD trump whatever issues these restaurant patrons were having? That is always the question with disabilities and when they start "competing."

And while I think service dogs are wonderful and should be allowed everywhere, sometimes that might not be the wisest decision. Did this particular restaurant have seating that was very close? If so, maybe this is not the type of restaurant your dad is going to be able to visit with his service dog. I know in my area we have some restaurants (like our local Chili's) where you are basically sitting on top of the next person and certainly a dog sitting near your own table is going to be infringing on the space of your neighbor, big time! Other restaurants have a more generous floor plan and are more suited for this.

Just some thoughts. I guess the question is "whose disability trumps other's?" I've faced the question myself many a time with my son's peanut allergy. Did his requirement to be in a peanut free zone as a child infringe on another child's health/welfare. Sometimes it did and he had to NOT participate in something.

 

[aaarcher86]

PTSD dogs are NOT emotional support dogs-they are dogs that are especially trained for the individual they work with-to be aware of changes in body chemistry or emotional stress than may indicate the onset of flashbacks, to assist as does any other service dog, with any physical disablities the person may have, and to provide a buffer between their handler and other people or situations that may trigger attacks. PTSD is a serious disablity for many of our OIF/OEF vets and PTSD dogs are essential to many of them functioning normally. These dogs are not the 'comfort' or emotional support animals people try to pass off as service dogs-they are truely service dogs, each trained for a specific handler and his or her issues. The resturant that denied the OP and her father service because of the dogs presence violated the ADA and further, disrespected someone who sacrificed a normal life to protect their freedom to own and run a business.

I totally agree that there are legitimate, trained, service dogs used for PTSD. I've also seen a lot of ESDs used for PTSD in particular, which is why I personally asked. Not every dog for PTSD is a service dog. I don't like grabbing for pitch forks in situations like this until this is known only because it seems that there are tons of people that have "ESDs" and don't actually know what that means for their dog legally.

If OP says it's a trained service dog, I'll believe them, and agree that the restaurant was in the wrong and should be held liable.

Would I hire a lawyer? No. It'd be more trouble than it's worth to me, and it doesn't sounded like dragging the dad through a case like that would be helpful for him. I'd definitely be contacting the restaurant higher ups though, and the woman who sits on council (although I'm not sure what all she could do).

 

[aaarcher86]

Ok. I will get jumped on for this and that is ok. I understand this is a very heated topic. I understand the trepidation of the hostess and whomever needed to seat this party. I formerly worked at a very large chain retail establishment. I was bitten by a "service dog". I reached for the payment and the dog lunged from the seat of the cart onto the counter. My boss was at the next register and was very upset. She called corporate because we were not allowed to ask the owner what service the animal does, or if he had any certifications. I ended up with quite a mark on my hand and lots of doctor visits etc. Nothing was ever done. The owner claimed to the police (that were called in due to a dog bite by another customer) that her dog was a service dog for her PTSD and in order to leave her home he had to be with her. He also peed on the floor in the back of the store while we were waiting. I understand why some people have their service animals. But I personally feel the ada needs to require a specific training program or certification of these animals. Yes, they are wonderful and they help their owners live full and more comfortable lives, but until something is done the ada looks like a joke for saying you can't ask if an animal is trained or certified.

The police should be able to ask for documentation once the dog bit you to make a bite report. I would have pressed charges. Trained service animals do not behave like that. People's pets who are pawned off as service dogs do.

I personally hope at some point the law changes and requires documentation of dogs being service animals if requested.

 

[eyehartdisney]

This is a trained dog who has the documentation to back it up. The training took months, and was rigorous. As far as other patrons go, we asked if we could just be seated far away from them, as the restaurant is fairly sizeable. We were told we could eat out on the deck (it was raining.) And we did, in fact, provide documentation to the restaurant. It is not required by law, but frankly education is the better part of valor in this instance imo. This was a swanky restaurant, and I honestly think it was just a matter of 'standards' and 'keeping the riffraff out.' If at any point the management had been anything other than horribly rude, and cruel, I might concede this being a matter of ignorance, but it was one of the most humiliating things I've ever been through... and it wasn't even me, it was my father.

As far as comfort animal vs. service dog, comfort animals require zero training, and are only required to be admitted to where you live. All you need to do to get one is have a psychiatrist note. Cooper is a fully trained service dog. Miles apart. Even if he's a psychiatric service dog, that is protected under law. It is specifically stated in our state's laws, I am unsure if it is mentioned in the federal laws, but the cop said it was, so I would go with yes, it is.

 

[Gracie09]

First, let me say that I feel you dad was treated horribly and I feel bad for him. Because I work for DoD, we have several Wounded Warrior employees who have service dogs that come to work and I think it's a wonderful program. I can't imagine any establishment refusing people; however, there are a few questions I'd just like to pose to the group on this discussion. At what point does a service dog's presence violate another customer's own issues? For instance, the OP states that she finally heard from a restaurant employee that several other customers complained that they would leave "if that dog came in." A small number of people have severe dog phobias that are quite stressful to them. Additionally, there are folks who are fairly allergic to animal dander. I'm one of them. Not to dogs, thank goodness, but VERY allergic to cats. Granted, the risk of allergic reaction here is minimal as the dog does not live in the restaurant and spread dander; however, it can be very distressing if you are allergic or phobic and seated next to the object of your misery. It appears that we had several patrons on hand that had a problem with the dog for one reason or another. They were already there and eating. They didn't have the choice to see the dog first and then make the decision to eat elsewhere. Does this man's disability with PTSD trump whatever issues these restaurant patrons were having? That is always the question with disabilities and when they start "competing." And while I think service dogs are wonderful and should be allowed everywhere, sometimes that might not be the wisest decision. Did this particular restaurant have seating that was very close? If so, maybe this is not the type of restaurant your dad is going to be able to visit with his service dog. I know in my area we have some restaurants (like our local Chili's) where you are basically sitting on top of the next person and certainly a dog sitting near your own table is going to be infringing on the space of your neighbor, big time! Other restaurants have a more generous floor plan and are more suited for this. Just some thoughts. I guess the question is "whose disability trumps other's?" I've faced the question myself many a time with my son's peanut allergy. Did his requirement to be in a peanut free zone as a child infringe on another child's health/welfare. Sometimes it did and he had to NOT participate in something.

The idea of other patrons allergies/phobias has been addressed in the regs of the law. The person with the service do has just as much right as anyone else to be in the establishment. If another patron doesn't like it they are free to leave or move.
As for infringing on others space, many items used in every day life infringe on others space. Would you say a person with a wheelchair shouldn't sit in a restaurant with tight setting because it infringes on others space? A service animal is an extension of the disabled person, much like a wheelchair or a set of crutches.

 

[Christine]

The idea of other patrons allergies/phobias has been addressed in the regs of the law. The person with the service do has just as much right as anyone else to be in the establishment. If another patron doesn't like it they are free to leave or move.
As for infringing on others space, many items used in every day life infringe on others space. Would you say a person with a wheelchair shouldn't sit in a restaurant with tight setting because it infringes on others space? A service animal is an extension of the disabled person, much like a wheelchair or a set of crutches.

But it's not the same, and I say this with the utmost admiration and support of service animals. I am 100% behind the program and what it's about. As I said, they are in my workplace and there's no problem.

If you say the law has addressed the competing disabilities, than I will take your word for it as I have not read the law.

It still comes down to one person's disability competing with another. If the law says that one person has just as much right as another--well, that can't really work. If you've got a severe phobia (and this is a documented mental illness in the DSM) and you have PTSD--we have two emotional disorders here. The phobic person is already in the restaurant eating and the service dog comes in. Of course, the phobic (or allergic person) can leave. That's their right. But they are halfway through a meal that they've paid for and now someone else is coming in and basically saying, "I know you are here already but my right to dine out trumps your right to dine out." It's a tough call and I think it has been an issue that is always hard to figure out how to handle.

Now, as for the space issue: you don't really mean to equate an animal with a wheelchair do you? A dog in your personal dining space is very different from a large chair. I don't know one person who has a phobia or allergy to a wheelchair and would find having a wheelchair next to them a stressful.

But having just said all the above (which is just hypothetical, devil's advocate stuff), based on what the OP says, the pushback was not due to anything like this and was more of a snobbery issue and that's just very unacceptable.

 

[SueM in MN]

This is totally false, and I don't know why you would make a sweeping statement like that when you clearly have no idea what the law is.

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

This document has all the basic information about Service Animals and also references on how to contact more information and assistance.

If it is a small mom & pop restaurant, they may not know the law (ignorance is not a defense though).
If it is part of a large chain, there is no question - they would have a policy and someone in charge of ADA compliance. If it's a chain, I would contact the company and ask for that person. They usually are very aware (and helpful) with educating the company/individual staff.

If another customer actually had an allergy or disability related issue with the dog being there, at a knowledgeable place the restaurant staff should have said something other than "other customers are threatening to leave if we let your dog in". They should have said something like "we need a bit of time to get a table away from a guest who has a disability related being close to a dog." Or "we have other guests with disabilities who will need to leave if your dog comes in....we expect they will be done in xxx amount of time. Would you like to wait here or come back?"

Service animals have to be under control & house trained. The business can require them to leave if they aren't but that's no help once you've been bitten.

True.
A lot of companies are not aware of that though. On one of the last Service Dog threads, a server said her restaurant had a 'service dog' that was walking around and trying to steal food from other tables.
She was under the impression they could not do anything. But, even if the dog was a fully trained Service Dog, as you mention, they could have required the dog to leave and given the owner the option to return without it.

That is federal law; however a service dog can be charged for any damages done so you could have sued for pain & suffering I would guess. ( I assume medical was covered by your employer.)

Ok. I will get jumped on for this and that is ok. I understand this is a very heated topic. I understand the trepidation of the hostess and whomever needed to seat this party. I formerly worked at a very large chain retail establishment. I was bitten by a "service dog". I reached for the payment and the dog lunged from the seat of the cart onto the counter. My boss was at the next register and was very upset. She called corporate because we were not allowed to ask the owner what service the animal does, or if he had any certifications. I ended up with quite a mark on my hand and lots of doctor visits etc.

Nothing was ever done. The owner claimed to the police (that were called in due to a dog bite by another customer) that her dog was a service dog for her PTSD and in order to leave her home he had to be with her. He also peed on the floor in the back of the store while we were waiting.

I understand why some people have their service animals. But I personally feel the ada needs to require a specific training program or certification of these animals. Yes, they are wonderful and they help their owners live full and more comfortable lives, but until something is done the ada looks like a joke for saying you can't ask if an animal is trained or certified.

You can ask 2 questions - the information is listed on the link above.
There was a woman who we saw multiple times on one trip to WDW who had her little 'service dog' in a dog stroller. Luckily, the dog stroller restrained the dog because he barked, jumped and snapped at people who were doing nothing more than walking past. The dog's owner did nothing to correct him, in fact she encouraged it, "Did that person scare you? Mommy will take care of it."
We also saw a woman with a dog in a purse that she brought to the DVC Member get together at Boardwalk. When she set the purse down on a couch, her dog stole snacks off the table and then proceeded to pee on the couch and the carpet.
Those dogs may have been providing some service, but should have been asked to leave because they were not trained or under control.
No business has to put up with that, but most are unaware and afraid of being on the wrong side of the ADA. So, it's important to know the law and document the reasons if an animal is asked to leave.

 

[Mokat76]

OP, I hate how badly your father and your family were treated. The whole incident stinks. I think you're handling it pretty well but I'd caution you about going with the nuclear option right off the bat while you're angry. It's so easy now to get everyone spun up and rabid about an issue for a day or two but to what end?

You already have the police involved. You apparently have the interest of a city councilwoman. You will never change those people who don't trust service dogs for whatever reason. You can change staff behavior. What do you want? Revenge? An apology? Remediation and retraining? Bringing in the media or the DOJ at this point may be overkill unless you sense the restaurant management team has no intention of changing its team's practices.

What your dad experienced should never have happened. Before YOU take the next steps, what does HE want to do? Why not cool down first, then act.

 

[Luvchefmic]

I have to admit OP (and other posters) when I first saw the thread I reacted " Oh no here we go again" and then you said the name of the group Cooper and Dad are a part of This is legit PTSD is legit this is not a " I have to have my dog with me because I LOVE him/her"

http://www.patriotassistancedogs.org/


It is disgusting that we ...our world, ME ...react with mistrust...I feel terrible that I did, I have become so leery of everyone trying to " pull a fast one" that I admit I have started to become less than compassionate

If what OPs family experienced helps to open my heart and my eyes again than the experience is a valuable lesson Hopefully some others will re-think also I never used to be this way, and due to personal experience I should know better PTSD has hit our family

A major part of the problem is a simple internet search and you reach all types of " no hassle, no proof needed " to "register" a dog buy a vest, ID tag, etc In the time it takes to reach your home just like that you can take your dog anywhere


Until there is a better way we have to change our way of thinking I know I learned a lesson Yes there will always be the phonies that are trying to take advantage I don't know what to do about that

I do hope your family does get assistance from the group and like I said in my original post to also reach out to Wounded Warriors

 

[Gracie09]

But it's not the same, and I say this with the utmost admiration and support of service animals. I am 100% behind the program and what it's about. As I said, they are in my workplace and there's no problem. If you say the law has addressed the competing disabilities, than I will take your word for it as I have not read the law. It still comes down to one person's disability competing with another. If the law says that one person has just as much right as another--well, that can't really work. If you've got a severe phobia (and this is a documented mental illness in the DSM) and you have PTSD--we have two emotional disorders here. The phobic person is already in the restaurant eating and the service dog comes in. Of course, the phobic (or allergic person) can leave. That's their right. But they are halfway through a meal that they've paid for and now someone else is coming in and basically saying, "I know you are here already but my right to dine out trumps your right to dine out." It's a tough call and I think it has been an issue that is always hard to figure out how to handle. Now, as for the space issue: you don't really mean to equate an animal with a wheelchair do you? A dog in your personal dining space is very different from a large chair. I don't know one person who has a phobia or allergy to a wheelchair and would find having a wheelchair next to them a stressful. But having just said all the above (which is just hypothetical, devil's advocate stuff), based on what the OP says, the pushback was not due to anything like this and was more of a snobbery issue and that's just very unacceptable.

Your the one who brought up the space issue and to a person with a service dog it is the same as a wheelchair or a prosthetic leg or any other medical device. And you don't have to take my word about competing disabilities, a 15 second google search will bring up all the relevant information for you.

And people are allergic to all kinds of things. If someone is allergic to perfume, should anyone who enters a restaurant after them not be allowed to wear perfume? Or smoke? In some people the smell of smoke causes asthma attacks. Should anyone who smokes not be allowed in restaurants after they have smoked?

 

[Piper]

I have a very small (she weighs 9 lbs) diabetic alert dog. She is trained and most people have never heard her bark. She does bark if someone touches out front door--that is one of her jobs (to let me know someone is at the door as my hearing is somewhat compromised by a stroke.) She also lets me know if a timer beeps by touching my leg and then standing in front of whatever appliance the timer is on.

She doesn't look like a service dog, but she was trained to "go" on command, and a squirrel could run right in front of her and she would ignore it. Even when other dogs bark at her, she never barks back. I use a scooter and she sits on the floorboard of the scooter and will not get off unless I say "okay." If I am not in my scooter, she lays at my feet (that's where she is right now.)

I guess the point of this is that a service dog has been trained to have "manners" when in public. A dog who barks at others or uses the restroom in an establishment hasn't been properly trained. People who pass their pets off as service dogs make it difficult for those of us who have true, trained service dogs!

 

[disneychrista]

This is totally false, and I don't know why you would make a sweeping statement like that when you clearly have no idea what the law is. http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

What part of my statement was false? The part where I asked what service the dog provides ( which business owners can legally ask) or the part where I said comfort animals are not covered under ADA?

 

[Gracie09]

What part of my statement was false? The part where I asked what service the dog provides ( which business owners can legally ask) or the part where I said comfort animals are not covered under ADA?

That dogs that detect seizures etc are the only ones allowed entry under the Ada. The only requirement is the dog (or small horse) is trained to provide a service to the owner. A comfort animal is not trained to provide a service. Simply being there is the only thing it does:

 

[disneychrista]

That dogs that detect seizures etc are the only ones allowed entry under the Ada. The only requirement is the dog (or small horse) is trained to provide a service to the owner. A comfort animal is not trained to provide a service. Simply being there is the only thing it does:

This is not what I said. I said hearing, seeing, detecting seizures, ETC.

Information about the service that Cooper provides was not available in the first post. It is clear that Cooper does provide a service under the ADA and should have been allowed.

 

[Christine]

Your the one who brought up the space issue and to a person with a service dog it is the same as a wheelchair or a prosthetic leg or any other medical device. And you don't have to take my word about competing disabilities, a 15 second google search will bring up all the relevant information for you.

And people are allergic to all kinds of things. If someone is allergic to perfume, should anyone who enters a restaurant after them not be allowed to wear perfume? Or smoke? In some people the smell of smoke causes asthma attacks. Should anyone who smokes not be allowed in restaurants after they have smoked?

Ok Gracie I'm not sure why but you seem very heated about this. The "space" issue had to do with an animal being in someone's personal space versus an inanimate object. If you can't see the difference in these things, I don't know what more to say.

On the allergy issue, I did downplay that but it can lead to discomfort for people and of course no one is suggesting that people stop wearing perfume.

The facts are that dogs can make some people uneasy. Phobias are real. At some point, a customer can feel fear of a service dog. Whose right has more sway? It's clear that you believe that anyone needing a service animal has weightier rights than those who have opposing issues with dogs. I'm still undecided. And no need to rant at me about reading the law. I believed you.

 

[RitaE]

I've always been of the opinion that the disabled community is doing themselves no favors by resisting a formalized certification or licensing procedure for service animals.

In fact, if I had a service animal that had probably cost me thousands of dollars and endless hours of training had been pumped into that animal to create a service dog --- I'd be pissed off to no end to see all these people around who use the disability law as a backdoor to get to bring their cute little pets all over the place, making the public resent and question me.

 

[Zooshoveller]

There needs to be government certification. They put the ADA in place, they need to be held accountable so issues like these stop.

OP, I believe your dad has a true service dog. But showing me a certification honestly means nothing. There are plenty of sites online where someone can just buy a certification. People can print their own. Vests are cheap. I shouldn't have to stop working, google a company, and decide if it's legit. You, your family, and others shouldn't have to go through what you did because of ignorance of the law (or just being jerks). I work at a zoo and we randomly get service animals. "Oh, he's legit. He has papers and a vest." Yeah, well now we have a dead kangaroo because your pet is out of control. (Don't get me started on the other stories.) The government needs to step up and fix this. Imagine if there where government issued licenses with a picture of the animal, breed, other info. Just show it like you would your own state issued id. That would be legit, no questions asked.

OP, you and others have my deepest sincerest sympathy. There are just so many fakes ruining everything and hardening hearts.

 

[aaarcher86]

I have a very small (she weighs 9 lbs) diabetic alert dog. She is trained and most people have never heard her bark. She does bark if someone touches out front door--that is one of her jobs (to let me know someone is at the door as my hearing is somewhat compromised by a stroke.) She also lets me know if a timer beeps by touching my leg and then standing in front of whatever appliance the timer is on. She doesn't look like a service dog, but she was trained to "go" on command, and a squirrel could run right in front of her and she would ignore it. Even when other dogs bark at her, she never barks back. I use a scooter and she sits on the floorboard of the scooter and will not get off unless I say "okay." If I am not in my scooter, she lays at my feet (that's where she is right now.) I guess the point of this is that a service dog has been trained to have "manners" when in public. A dog who barks at others or uses the restroom in an establishment hasn't been properly trained. People who pass their pets off as service dogs make it difficult for those of us who have true, trained service dogs!

I really couldn't agree with this more!

Service dogs come in all shapes and sizes and do a variety of things. And it's incredibly aggravating and insensitive that people use a loophole in the law to get away with bringing princess pooch everywhere. Service dogs behave just like yours, with manners.

It's going to end up coming down to a "service dog" injuring someone (like the woman in Sue's post who's dog was trying to bite people walking) before things will change. I haven't met a single service dog owner that would mind showing their dogs certification if asked in a place like Disney or a restaurant. I think it's a shame that it's come down to needing to do that these days.

 

[mrsklamc]

Service animals that help with seeing, hearing, detects seizures, etc are the only ones under ADA that have to be allowed entry.

This part. OP stated her father has PTSD. This as a response made it sound like you did not realize that comforting her father is a function of a trained animal that does have to be allowed entry under the ADA.