Rant about state testing in schools

Caradana said:
Not true @ mine; actually, Teacher Prep was the only program at mine that required you to stay in school an extra half-semester to finish. Where did you go to college that this was true? And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you foresake engineering to become, functionally speaking, a teacher?

Yes, after completing my BS and MS, here I sit, teaching my kids. Isn't your mother a teacher, as well? I guess that would account for your defensiveness, but the fact that many people choose Elementary Education as an easy major nationwide is an accepted generality. It's nice to know, that Ivy League schools are the exception.
 
See, I knew when I posted that that someone would take it personally. PLEASE keep in mind that I am speaking in absolute generalities about the entire teaching profession, not any one person in particular. EVERY generality is going to have it's exceptions (not all rocket scientists are geniuses, either).

But think about the absolutely brightest kids you were in school with. I'm talking about the top 10% of your class; kids that tested well AND got good grades. How many of them became teachers ? Of the brightest people I know, only one - a girl I dated when I was younger that eventually dumped me, proving said intelligence ;) ) had "the calling". The others all became doctors, lawyers, and various business people.

Oh, and I live in one of the toughest states in the country in which to get your teaching certification...and ironically, it's one of the worst primary and secondary education systems. Why the discrepency ? Money.

Unfortunately, the teachers union has become so politically powerful that any real measurement of teacher performance is unlikely. The only outlet the government is left is to test the students. But again, the government - and the misleadingly titled "No Child Left Behind" law - do not go far enough. Simple testing, with the threat of having the school "taken over" by the state, isn't enough. We need to eliminate the cause of the low test scores...and that cause, all too often, boils down to poor teaching.

As I mentionied before, our kids are falling far behind the rest of the industrialized world in crucial subjects like science and math. Do you think it's because our kids are just dumber than those of other countries ? Or could it maybe be that our education system needs an overhaul ?
 
wvrevy said:
See, I knew when I posted that that someone would take it personally. PLEASE keep in mind that I am speaking in absolute generalities about the entire teaching profession, not any one person in particular. EVERY generality is going to have it's exceptions (not all rocket scientists are geniuses, either).

But think about the absolutely brightest kids you were in school with. I'm talking about the top 10% of your class; kids that tested well AND got good grades. How many of them became teachers ? Of the brightest people I know, only one - a girl I dated when I was younger that eventually dumped me, proving said intelligence ;) ) had "the calling". The others all became doctors, lawyers, and various business people.

Oh, and I live in one of the toughest states in the country in which to get your teaching certification...and ironically, it's one of the worst primary and secondary education systems. Why the discrepency ? Money.

Unfortunately, the teachers union has become so politically powerful that any real measurement of teacher performance is unlikely. The only outlet the government is left is to test the students. But again, the government - and the misleadingly titled "No Child Left Behind" law - do not go far enough. Simple testing, with the threat of having the school "taken over" by the state, isn't enough. We need to eliminate the cause of the low test scores...and that cause, all too often, boils down to poor teaching.

As I mentionied before, our kids are falling far behind the rest of the industrialized world in crucial subjects like science and math. Do you think it's because our kids are just dumber than those of other countries ? Or could it maybe be that our education system needs an overhaul ?


You could blame some teachers for poor teaching, but I think the real problem is in the parents. Parents do not see themselves as teachers, but they are the childs first teachers. Parents are too busy to help kids with homework. Parents don't discipline kids. Parents and kids have no respect for teachers. Teachers need help in teaching the children and it is the parents responsiblity to help. I am not saying all parents are like this, but enough to have a problem with education.
 
I agree with many of the things that gottaluvpluto said, but I do think many parents are trying their best. They just aren't sure what to do. Two things could really help parents and the education system in general. One would be universal preschool. That would be preschool that is part of the public school system and helps get ALL kids starting on the same page, so to speak. We unfortunately live in a society where many kids don't grow up in homes where parents read to them and prepare them for the world of school. There's also a lot in today's society competing with the joys of reading and learning for the preschool set. You have tv, videos, gameboy, play station, and computer games.

The other major change would be lower the student: teacher ratio. Any teacher will tell you if they have fewer students in a class they will be more effective. Of course, there are other reforms that could also help raise the bar, but fewer students in each classroom is a good start.
 

There is no one magic bullet that will improve our education
system. Parents, teachers, and the kids themselves all have
a responsibility to the success of schools. Which is why one of
biggest pet peeves is when people say "schools need to be held
accountable"......no duh, but what about the students and their
parents??? Where is their accountability in NCLB??

On another note, addressing the issue of the "brightest" kids from
high school not becoming teachers, I have 2 very good friends who
are both engineers (electrical and aeronautical), and they are extremely
smart and make great money, but both aren't exactly happy with their
jobs. I asked them why not go back to school, get your education
degree, and get into teaching field?? There response was "Are you
kidding me?!?!!? Why, I asked???? Money, more schooling, etc.??
Nope, they said dealing with uninvolved parents and unmotivated
kids is something they couldn't handle.
I guess sometimes being the "best and brightest" doesn't always mean
being the "best and brightest" when it comes to dealing with people.
 
gottaluvPluto said:
You could blame some teachers for poor teaching, but I think the real problem is in the parents. Parents do not see themselves as teachers, but they are the childs first teachers. Parents are too busy to help kids with homework. Parents don't discipline kids. Parents and kids have no respect for teachers. Teachers need help in teaching the children and it is the parents responsiblity to help. I am not saying all parents are like this, but enough to have a problem with education.


AMEN to that! There are waaaayyy too many parent out there who expect the schools to raise their children but are quick to find fault when their child causes problems and the school puts disciplinary measures into place. I homeschool but not because I don't think most teachers do a fabulous job. I do it because there are too many people out there who send their kids to school with no respect for anyone and anything AND because I am sick of law makers with no educational background making up things about what kids should be taught when. (Lots of other reasons not related to this thread as well.)
 
wvrevy said:
But think about the absolutely brightest kids you were in school with. I'm talking about the top 10% of your class; kids that tested well AND got good grades. How many of them became teachers ? Of the brightest people I know, only one - a girl I dated when I was younger that eventually dumped me, proving said intelligence ;) ) had "the calling". The others all became doctors, lawyers, and various business people.


Had to respond to this....actually two of my sisters who are both genius IQ levels are teachers. So was my mother who is one of the most intelligent people you would hope to meet. Why did they become teachers? Because they love kids and wanted to make a difference in their lives. And they seem to not be bored with their friends which leads me to believe that they are not hanging out with a bunch of dimwits. This nonsense has been out there for years as far as not the best and brightest. Politicians cause the problems with the educational system, not teachers.
 
gottaluvPluto said:
You could blame some teachers for poor teaching, but I think the real problem is in the parents. Parents do not see themselves as teachers, but they are the childs first teachers. Parents are too busy to help kids with homework. Parents don't discipline kids. Parents and kids have no respect for teachers. Teachers need help in teaching the children and it is the parents responsiblity to help. I am not saying all parents are like this, but enough to have a problem with education.

Bingo! I teach in Kentucky - we have one of the most ridiculous testing systems on earth. Kids are in no way accountable - but I am? I have way more problems with parents than with kids. And 90% of the problems I have with kids could be resolved with a little constructive cooperation between parents and teachers.
 
jackskellingtonsgirl said:
Last week we get the "official" document. PERFECT score. He missed NONE. How am I supposed to feel about this? Do we jump for joy and thank our lucky stars that our public school made DS spend an extra 15 hours getting ready? Do we figure that Saturday school probably wasn't necessary? How hard was that test, anyway? If they were TRULY concerned that he wouldn't pass yet he got a perfect score then something seems amiss. Either they WAY misjudged my child or they WAY misjudged the material on the test.
When my brother was in second grade, his teacher was getting her masters. She asked my Mom if she could borrow my brother because he was an average student and didn't appear to be motivated. My Mom said yes, since the project was on how to motivate the unmotivated student. Once my brother had undivided attention and they worked at his pace, he did wonderfully. Turned out that he was bored with his classroom work and didn't have to put in any extra to get by, so he didn't. It worked out to be good for my parents to know what he needed, but the teacher told my Mom that she wished she'd more accurately identified an unmotivated student for her project. My brother made it too easy. He's a pharmacist now.

My point is this... maybe your DS took the "criticisms" (I can't think of a better word to describe what I mean) and thought, "I'll show them." He definitely stepped up to the plate when it mattered. Good for your DS! I'm sure your DS will be very successful with his future, too. Sounds to me like he's a typical boy.
 
swilphil said:
The other major change would be lower the student: teacher ratio. Any teacher will tell you if they have fewer students in a class they will be more effective. Of course, there are other reforms that could also help raise the bar, but fewer students in each classroom is a good start.
I am in agreement with the 'lower student to teacher ratio' suggestion.

My first approach to lowering this ratio would be to get the trouble makers and the unmotivated out of the regular classrooms. There is a small number of students in classes that need to be in some sort of juvenile detention. These few students serve to disrupt the class, slow down the progress, and take up an inordinate amount of the teacher's time that could be spent on preparing better lessons, tutoring more deserving students, or <gasp> resting.

Then there are the pampered students who have never been made to learn a thing but have been 'socially promoted' so that they arrive in high schools without the most basic skills. These are the students that the standardized testing are supposed to identify = and hopefully force the schools to either detain them in lower grades, or alter their habits so that they actually learn something in the first 8 years of their schooling.

Both the above situations are caused by parents. Too many parents just dump their problems into the school system to baby-sit them. We should demand that these parents raise their children to live in society, or else make them take care of them themselves. They should have to take their little darlings to work with them.

I think that a teacher can easily handle 25 students in a class - - - IF - IF ---- all those students are really interested in learning something.
 
wvrevy said:
As I mentionied before, our kids are falling far behind the rest of the industrialized world in crucial subjects like science and math. Do you think it's because our kids are just dumber than those of other countries ? Or could it maybe be that our education system needs an overhaul ?
I think it has to do with the culture these children are being reared in, and the laziness of their parents. Our kids are plenty smart, but they are totally undisciplined in their thought process. They have not been taught to think, nor to perserve in a task. They expect everything to be 'easy' and that it is an ok excuse to just say - "that's too hard."

While I agree with your general comments that teachers do not necessarily have the highest IQ in the professional world, I think that IQ is not the most important characteristic of a good teacher. Assuming that a teacher is qualified in the field they teach, they do not have to be a research scientist to teach the subject in a public school system. What they do need is a great deal of desire to teach, and they need the unqualified support of the community, the administration, and the parents of the students.

Parents are the big problem here. For the most part, it is the parents' generation that created the hedonistic culture we live in today, and it is still their fault for being more interested in making money or having fun that they are in raising good citizens.

If parents would raise their children with a minimal respect for authority, and would supervise their habits, then the teachers could spend a lot more time teaching subject matter, and not so much time maintaining order in the classroom.

Then we would be right up there with the rest of the world in our educational achievements. Parents are the most important factor.
 
Rokkitsci said:
I am in agreement with the 'lower student to teacher ratio' suggestion.

My first approach to lowering this ratio would be to get the trouble makers and the unmotivated out of the regular classrooms. There is a small number of students in classes that need to be in some sort of juvenile detention. These few students serve to disrupt the class, slow down the progress, and take up an inordinate amount of the teacher's time that could be spent on preparing better lessons, tutoring more deserving students, or <gasp> resting.

In my 14 years of teaching, I always had a handful of the students you described here. I can't imagine suggesting that "trouble makers and unmotivated" students be taken out of the regular classrooms. Who wants to be the teacher that teaches that class? Those students did prove to be the most challenging part of my job, but many of them did come around. I would like to see the consequences more severe and enforced more often. Shipping them off to juvenile detention would only make them worse. I have an obligation to teach those students as well as the bright ones.

The way to deal lower the student to teacher ratio is to hire more teachers, which obviously requires more money. It's much easier to deal with discipline problems in a smaller class.
 
You could blame some teachers for poor teaching, but I think the real problem is in the parents. Parents do not see themselves as teachers, but they are the childs first teachers. Parents are too busy to help kids with homework. Parents don't discipline kids. Parents and kids have no respect for teachers. Teachers need help in teaching the children and it is the parents responsiblity to help. I am not saying all parents are like this, but enough to have a problem with education.

I couldn't agree with you more on that, some parents are the number one reason why kids act up the way they do, I see that in school every single day.
The teachers and counselors are frustrated because no matter what they do, they are the ones blamed ( I have seen this more times than I can count ). Sad.
 
swilphil said:
In my 14 years of teaching, I always had a handful of the students you described here. I can't imagine suggesting that "trouble makers and unmotivated" students be taken out of the regular classrooms. Who wants to be the teacher that teaches that class? Those students did prove to be the most challenging part of my job, but many of them did come around. I would like to see the consequences more severe and enforced more often. Shipping them off to juvenile detention would only make them worse. I have an obligation to teach those students as well as the bright ones.
sorry - I just cannot agree that these few students have a higher priority than the other ones. And they are not the "dumb ones." At least half of these students are plenty "bright." And many of the good students are really not very bright - these are the ones I want to spend time with.

There are a couple of incorrigibles in each of my classes. These few 'students' have caused the entire class to be at LEAST three or four weeks behind schedule and have impaired the QUALITY of instruction throughout the year. I have spent way too much time escorting them to the office - and writing referrals describing the incidents - for these few students. The impact they have on the class is much more far reaching than just the time required. Each disruption completely destroys whatever teaching atmosphere had been established. Several other marginal students think it is "funny" that their "heroes" have allowed them to get by another day without having to do much.

I did not suggest that these students be put in juvenile detention. I think that is where many of them belong, but I do think we have an obligation to try and rehabilitate them. They need to be in some alternative class where the total focus of the class is to teach them that education is really a serious business and that they are going to learn how to behave in that evironment or they are going to be removed from it. As long as they are permitted to roam the regular classrooms leaving disruption in their wake, they will never learn to adjust.

Now - would I like to be able to be the one who could 'reach' them and rehabilitate them? You bet. However, I am not omnipotent. I work as hard as I can to prepare to teach math. I spend at least 12 hours a day doing what I am now doing. I just don't have the time to be an intervention worker. Plus, I don't have the training to deal with socially maladjusted teenagers.

Teaching is a difficult job. It is difficult to find good teachers well grounded in the subject matter they are teaching. I think it is asking too much of them to demand that they be also prepared to deal with social mis-fits.

If we - as a nation - are interested in improving public education, we will have to discard the pollyanna "don't hurt anyone's feelings" silliness that has invaded the administraton of education. We have to be able to weed out the trouble-makers into a different environment. We have to be able to demand minimal respect from students. We have to be allowed to devote more time to teaching rather than remedial discipline. If we could accomplish that, the student-teacher ratio would not be as big a problem as it is today.

A teacher can handle the number of students - IF the students have been taught to be minimally courteous and have been minimally prepared for the subject in prior years. Just adding more teachers only reduces the damage that the incorrigibles cause - reduce the ratio far enough and some of the new teachers can just act as parole officers.

Now - I am all for a lower student to teacher ratio. However, this is not the root of the problem in American education today. The root of the problem is the permissive culture that the students have grown up within. They know they will not be held responsible for anything they do. They know they will be "passed" to the next level regardless of how poorly they do. They know that all they will get is a day in ISS for their disruptions. Some of them like to go to ISS - they get a lot of attention on the way, and while there they don't have to do anything anyway.

darn - now I am late for school - see you later
 
As an interesting note to this, I wonder if any of you have experience with private schools success on standardized tests? I returned to teaching in a private Catholic school after teaching 11 years in public school. My school, K-8, traditionally scores very well on our standardized tests and the students do very, very well on the entrance exams to various HS in our area which is pretty competitive. As teachers, we are not permitted to teach to the test. We are not permitted to use any test prep materials at all. We simply are allowed to view one copy of the test material from previous years and keep in mind what concepts are on it. Needless to say, coming from public school, I almost had a heart attack when I learned that. What, no test prep week, no test prep packets? How could they expect the students to succeed? Simple they do. Why? I believe there are various reasons for this, many of them previously mentioned. Primarily I believe it is parent involvement. Our parents are there, sometimes to a fault, but they are surely caring and dedicated to their child. Secondly, I believe there is a great deal of truth to the concept of the less motivated child taking time from teaching. Of course, I would love to say it is our fabulous teachers. That is true to a certain extent, but not the entire picture at all. We have good teachers and bad teachers, just like anywhere else. There are so many components that contribute to standardized success.

Also, I have to partially agree with the posters who question the concept of children who are " bright but don't test well". I have many times wondered why we question the tests and assume our children are bright. However, anyone who has witnessed a child who gets a question wrong and then given the chance to answer it one more time, with NO changes in the questioning, simply a change in the stress level, would have to agree that there is a great deal of truth to that philosophy. I don't know what the answer is, just know that it's a truth to deal with in my family and professional life.That is why standardized tests should never be the entire picture. THey also completely discount the advantage of being a hard worker, working to overcome a difficulty. That is something I never want to teach my students. Hard work can take you a long way.

And one more thing.... Why, oh why do we as educators continue to study and research HOW people learn when in our professional lives we will never be able to use that information and actually teach that way? We know so much about learning and we use a fraction of it in the field.

I could go on and on. Great post.
 
Patricia--very interesting comments. Made me realize that as a homeschooling mom, I never teach to the test. I don't administer it and have no idea what will be on it from year to year. Every year my child has scored two to three grades above grade level. I think part of it is as Rokkitcsi says in that she knows how to learn. She also knows how to draw information from context clues. And of course, she has a very low child to teacher ratio!
 
Here's an article from the Chicago Tribune. Very interesting, and just in time for our little debate!

No Child Left Behind rules could be relaxed
Education chief hints test policy to change


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0504080347apr08,1,6705098.story?coll=chi-news-hed

By Jodi S. Cohen, Tribune staff reporter. Tribune staff reporters Darnell Little, Tracy Dell'Angela and Diane Rado contributed to this report
Published April 8, 2005


In what could lead to broad changes in the Bush administration's education reforms, federal officials said Thursday they are open to relaxing requirements for states that show a commitment to improve.

The plan, outlined Thursday during a meeting between Education Secretary Margaret Spellings and state school chiefs, may help defuse a growing rebellion against No Child Left Behind, a law criticized as unfunded and an intrusion into state control.

Education officials are adamant that the cornerstone of the law--having all students reading and doing math at grade level by 2014--will not change.

But, among other things, Spellings' policy shift could make it easier for school districts to pass state tests under the 2002 law by increasing the number of students who can take a modified test because of disabilities.

Some sanctions for failing to meet state standards, including a provision that children in failing schools be given the opportunity to transfer to better ones, could also be relaxed. Chicago Public Schools leaders, for example, would prefer to allow students to be tutored before offering them a transfer as mandated by the law.

"Many of you may have your own issues," Spellings told state officials. "We are willing to consider requests, as long as the results for students are there and the principles of the law are followed."

Spellings' announcement opens the door for states to ask for greater flexibility in everything from how they measure student progress to when they must offer student transfers, but she stopped short of saying what changes she would approve.

She hinted that she would be open to measuring academic achievement by tracking individual students, instead of by comparing grade levels from one year to the next. Educators say the current approach fails to measure student progress.

For federal officials to consider changes, states will have to show they are following the rules of No Child Left Behind, including testing students every year in grades 3 though 8, reporting results by student subgroups, and hiring qualified teachers, Spellings said.

"They absolutely have to put some skin in the game," she said. "I am not going to prejudge what issues will be raised by states, but I will be open-minded."

The announcement comes as about 15 states are challenging the law. Utah leaders, for example, will vote later this month whether to give priority to Utah's education laws and forgo about $1 million in federal aid.

Connecticut is on the verge of becoming the first state to sue, contending the law illegally requires communities to spend more money to comply than the federal government provides.

Ottawa Township High School District 140, 80 miles southwest of Chicago, sued the Education Department in federal court in February, arguing that No Child Left Behind conflicts with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which requires individual academic plans for special education students.

State Supt. Randy Dunn said he would like flexibility in testing procedures for special education and limited-English students. He also would prefer that students have a longer track record with a particular school before their test scores count in measuring that school's success.

"We hope there is some willingness for them to work with us," Dunn said. "We are very much in favor of the approach that Secretary Spellings is taking and her willingness to demonstrate flexibility."

Spellings said she would concede on at least one area: how special education students are tested.

The secretary would consider allowing 3 percent of tested students, or about 18,000 in Illinois, to take a modified test, perhaps with simpler questions, to measure progress. That could raise a school's overall performance.

Spellings said she will issue guidelines to help states identify and appropriately test students with disabilities.

The current law allows up to 1 percent--those with the most significant cognitive abilities--to be assessed at their instructional level rather than grade level.

Judging from special education students' past performance, they are more likely to succeed on an alternative assessment. About 53 percent of special education students passed the alternative reading test last year, compared with 28 percent who passed the standard elementary and middle school reading test.

There were 142 Illinois schools last year that failed to meet state standards only because of the performance of special education students. Schools are judged not only on schoolwide scores, but also on the performance of subgroups, such as minority, poor and special education students.

But Ottawa Supt. Thomas Jobst, whose district is suing federal officials, said allowing more special education students to take an alternative test still isn't acceptable. The change would only affect a fraction of the more than 87,700 special education students tested in reading last year.

"They are missing the point," Jobst said. "You are still saying that 97 percent of special education kids have to be at the same place, at the same time as their non-special education peers."

Former special education teacher Deborah Zech, director of student services in Palatine-based School District 15, said new flexibility will help students caught in the middle--those who aren't severely disabled but are not up to taking the regular test.

Those children suffer at test time, she said.

"I have seen (special education) children taking that test just break down in tears," said Zech. "The expectation is still for children to make progress, and that's fair. But let's test them fairly."

Advocates for disabled students reacted more cautiously Thursday, saying No Child Left Behind for the first time held schools accountable for the performance of their special education students.

Meg Heron-Blake, a director at the Learning Disabilities Association of Illinois, said she fears that shifting more students into alternative testing will lessen focus on how these children perform.

"The point of these tests is to bring some accountability, and we want our schools and our teachers accountable for our students," she said.

Xavier Botana, director of No Child Left Behind programs for Chicago Public Schools, said he hopes federal officials also allow schools to offer free tutoring to students before offering them a chance to transfer to a better-performing school.

The transfer option--the first sanction that kicks in when a school has not met standards for two years in a row--has faced difficulties because few slots are available at better schools.

While educators cautiously praised more flexibility, others cautioned that the plan to treat states differently could raise questions of fairness and political favoritism, said Patricia Sullivan, director of the independent Center on Education Policy.

"The message today is if you are doing a good job, we will give you additional flexibility," Sullivan said. "One of the concerns is how transparent will that process be? If this isn't a transparent process and one where everyone is treated fairly, politics can come into play."
 
My 2nd grader is having a terrible time this year because of the state testing. He gets so flustered under a time deadline (ie: mad minute math tests) that he gets physically ill and ends up in the nurses office. They have been "practicing" for these tests all year and he still has trouble. He knows the answers, but when that pressure is on, he forgets and it takes him longer to get it written down.

This was also the case when the were counting how many words he could read in a minute. He is reading at almost 5 grade level(4th grade,8th month) but when since they go by words per minute, he has almost a failing grade.

As for the student/teacher ratio....he has 9 kids in his class. We are in a small town and our kids attend a very small school.
 
Rokkitsci said:
sorry - I just cannot agree that these few students have a higher priority than the other ones. And they are not the "dumb ones." At least half of these students are plenty "bright." And many of the good students are really not very bright - these are the ones I want to spend time with.

Where did I say that the trouble makers and unmotivated students should be a higher priority? It sounds like your school needs to figure out how to handle these discipline problems. I think in all my years of referring students to the office, I only had to escort 2 or 3 to the office. Most recently I would call the office and tell them the student was coming down. If they didn't show up, someone would go out looking for them. I agree with some of the problems you mention with our permissive society, but how does discarding the problem students alleviate that problem?
 
I think I'll move to Ottowa...it's only about 45 minutes from me..my dad actually built a few houses out there a few years ago. Kudos to a small town for taking on the "system". My DS school is being given a "pilot test" next week, math and reading. We will not be told the scores and the letter states that the scores will not be in the schools stae report card...I wonder if this has anything to do with the article mentioned above?
 

New Posts


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom