Rant about state testing in schools

[Galahad]

Here there is a frustrating debate going on. Currently the state standardized test are given in the fall, a couple of weeks after school starts and the test over the previous year's standards. There is a push to moving the test to the spring, testing kids at the end of the year against that year's standards. All this will do is ensure they will spend all year on "test prep" rather than just teaching. Now, they don't consume the kids with test prep hype, and all. Having lived in states where the test was in the spring I can tell you that this idea is very short sighted. Ah well.

 

[Chicago526]

I hope I say this right...

If NCLB requires all kids to pass the test at their grade level, it would seem to me that the schools should then hold back the kids that they know won't do well on the test. If a kid going into 4th grade doesn't have the 3rd grade info down, it's a good bet he won't do well when he needs to take the 4th grade test. That kids should be held back to repeat 3rd grade.

Same with the special ed kids. If they can't pass a 4th grade standardiszed test, why are they in 4th grade?

Is the problem that so many kids don't have the basics, that it is impossible to hold them ALL back?

I'm not saying I'm for NCLB or standardized testing as the sole messure of a school. I'm just trying to understand WHY the schools keep promoting kids that don't have the basics down, then panicking when they get to the grade levels that are being tested.

 

[Caradana]

Chicago: there's a very real debate about social promotion, and compelling arguments on both sides. There are some kids who would never approach a 12th grade level if you kept them in school until they needed walkers and canes. You have to graduate them and let them live their lives at some point ...

 

[RitaZ.]

Students do get retained here if they don't pass the FCAT. There is specific criteria that students have to meet in order to be promoted. The criteria is different for elementary, MS & HS students. I haven't really looked at this year's policy because I have no concerns for my children, but I'm sure that there have been changes. My son told me that there is a 15 yr. old 8th grader in his art class that was retained last year.

There was a news release that I read about a week ago about changes to the retention policy. Apparently, third graders that were retained last year for not passing the FCAT can be retained again this year if they don't pass the FCAT. If the student was retained in K, 1st or 2nd, then he/she can't be retained again. All these rules are very confusing, as they are forever changing. In order to pass the FCAT, a student must score at least in the 25% percentile, but he/she will require remedial/intensive help the following school year.

There are rules and then there are "rules". For instance, my friend's son didn't pass the FCAT last year, yet he was given a second chance to take the test after the initial results were issued; he passed on the second try. I didn't know this was possible, but apparently there is some "rule bending" going on.

 

[Caradana]

That's a terrific irony: FCAT "passing" is 25th percentile, NCTB requires that every kid "pass" the state test and meet grade level, but Florida's system, by definition, flunks one in four. That amuses me.

 

[chobie]

That's a terrific irony: FCAT "passing" is 25th percentile, NCTB requires that every kid "pass" the state test and meet grade level, but Florida's system, by definition, flunks one in four. That amuses me.

States with low standards get rewarded and states with high standards get punished under NCLB. Brilliant. No Child Left Behind, its a great name, but that's about all that's great about it.

 

[RitaZ.]

I'm curious as to what percentile is considered passing in other states when it comes to standardized tests.

Anyone want to share the numbers?

 

[momof2inPA]

This is absolutely true. Especially are they a good thing on a standardized test, where the objective is to really guage how much a student actually KNOWS about the subject.
Since most of these tests are multiple choice, I am glad to know that they sometimes ask a sort of essay question to allow a student to actually demonstrate his knowledge.
There are rubrics used to grade essay questions, so that it is not a 'right or wrong' situation. If you can do the problem you probably get some credit, if you can explain it at all you get more credit. If you can really explain it fully, you would get full credit.
This is good.

If you reach the correct number in a complicated mathematical problem, you have demonstrated that you understand the methodology. Verbalizing this methodology on a test is redundancy, and a redundant demonstration of the ability to understand a concept is a waste of time-- on a test. Using math journaling to TEACH a classful of kids and indentify their weaknesses is fine, but testing for it is silly. It's just another "new math" concept that will go the way of the dinosaur in a few years. In the interim, I'll teach it to my second grader, doing fifth grade and higher level math because it's required, but I refuse to spend more than a few minutes a semester doing so. It serves no purpose to either of us.

 

[Galahad]

Not sure that a percentile score for a passing grade is accurate for all states. Indiana's passing scores are not percentiles (which is a measure of the percentage of students that got a better score than you) but in a straight percentage, like a grade. So depending upon the grade level, a child needs to score from a 58% to a 67% on the standardized test to pass it. The percentile is simply their ranking within the whole population that took the test. If most kids passed the test, but a lot of them passed the test with, say a 65% or above, that kid with the 58% score would be in a low percentile. I'm not sure that isn't also the case in Florida.

 

[momof2inPA]

Not sure that a percentile score for a passing grade is accurate for all states. Indiana's passing scores are not percentiles (which is a measure of the percentage of students that got a better score than you) but in a straight percentage, like a grade. So depending upon the grade level, a child needs to score from a 58% to a 67% on the standardized test to pass it. The percentile is simply their ranking within the whole population that took the test. If most kids passed the test, but a lot of them passed the test with, say a 65% or above, that kid with the 58% score would be in a low percentile. I'm not sure that isn't also the case in Florida.

Are the standardized tests exactly the same for all states (with different names-- PSSA's, FCAT) or are they just supposed to cover similar material at each testing grade level? If the federal government is basing funding on the tests, wouldn't it make sense if the tests were identical for each state?

 

[wvrevy]

Ok, anyone that's been on one of the political threads here knows how I feel about Bush, but get ready for a bit of a curveball

I actually like the idea behind NCLB. What I have a problem with is mostly in how it has been implemented. Just a few random thoughts, having just read through this thread:

- Testing is an essential part of the process, but it is NOT a panacea. If a child can not do work that has been determined to be on the 3rd grade level, that child has no business being in the 4th grade. PERIOD.

- I've never bought the "they just don't test well" argument. If a person knows the material, I just do not believe that they will do poorly on a test of that material. Getting good grades could be the product of any number of things, from hand-holding by the teacher to getting help from their parents on homework. But if you know it, you know it. Putting it into multiple-choice questions isn't going to somehow make them forget.

- "Social promotion" is a dirty word (ok, "phrase"). If the kid is incapable of doing work on the grade level, he has no business being in that grade. Period. It does nothing but punish his classmates, as the teacher must spend extra time trying to help him rather than letting them move at a more natural pace. A high school diploma used to actually mean you'd accomplished something worthwhile in this country. There are many reasons why it no longer does, but "social promotions" are right at the top of the list.

- There are a lot of bad teachers out there, whether you want to admit it or not. ALL of us have had one at one time or another. One of those that "teach" by doing nothing but reading the textbook...or a history teacher that teaches nothing but dates and names, but none of the meaning behind events...or Literature professors that tell you you're wrong in your interpretation of something unless your opinion just happens to coincide with their own. How would any of you suggest we go about finding these bad apples, if not by testing the results of their work ?

- Speaking of history...I'm not familiar with the tests for upper level kids (junior high up), but subjects such as history and social studies need to be tested via essay. Boiling down important events to nothing but names and dates just causes kids to memorize the names and dates and forget the signifigance of the event. Math, science, and reading comprehension can easily be boiled down to multiple choice questions. Not so for some others.

- The test should be a national standard, not state-by-state. Kids in poorer states (such as my own) need help just as much as kids in larger, more wealthy states. Again, the test is just the start of the process, for the kids as well as the school systems. There must be proper follow up, on both levels, to help the kids that are achieving reach their fullest potential, and to help those that need extra help. The goal should be to get each child to his fullest potential, not to turn out all kids at the same level (not realistic, and not helpful for either the fastest or slowest).

One thing I will most certainly differ with the Bush supporters is that I think a large portion of any budget increase should go towards teacher salary. If we continue to pay teachers a lower wage than most "professional" careers, then it is my contention you will continue to draw from the bottom of the barrel. Oh, I realize many very bright people go into teaching. But they are generally those that have what I would refer to as "the calling". They feel a vocation for it, so they ignore the low salary to do something they love to do. But if you make teaching salaries more commensurate with salaries for people with equivalent education and certification in the corporate world, I truly believe a lot more people would decide that it was something they want to do. But if I have to choose between a $55,000 a year job in the corporate world and a $35,000 a year job teaching...well, not very many people are going to pick the latter.

 

[Bella the Ball 360]

Having just administered the MCAS long composition to a group of special needs kids who worked their fingers to the bone to try and pass I say the idea of standardized testing is a joke at least with this population. In the past many of these kids who had disabilities with processing info to put on paper but could easily verbalize info were allowed to have a scribe. But no!! That was too easy. God forbid that they actually be allowed to show what is in their brain. Now that accomodation has been tightened up so much that unless the child has a scribe for EVERY composition that he does then he is not allowed this accomodation. This is a joke. How can a child learn if all they ever do is have a scribe? The state did not take into consideration the fact that some of these kids just cannot attened long enough to be able to complete a test but yet by 2014 EVERYONE needs to score proficient.

The state only wants 2% of Sped population to take an alternate assessment (just another way to spell failure b/c less than 1% of kids tested this way pass). I spent 4 hours with one little kid trying to help him by lending moral support just so he could get his composition done and still he will maybe get a 2 out of 6 if he is lucky. HOw many authors use a tape recorder and scribe? I could go on and on. Needless to say the kids do not benefit from this type of testing and all that it results in is teacher or school system bashing.

 

[Galahad]

- The test should be a national standard, not state-by-state. Kids in poorer states (such as my own) need help just as much as kids in larger, more wealthy states. Again, the test is just the start of the process, for the kids as well as the school systems. There must be proper follow up, on both levels, to help the kids that are achieving reach their fullest potential, and to help those that need extra help. The goal should be to get each child to his fullest potential, not to turn out all kids at the same level (not realistic, and not helpful for either the fastest or slowest).

I'm unsure about the above. I understand your point, but I really would like to see schools still controlled at the local level as much as possible. If you could achieve that standard without the DOE running all of the schools I might be persuaded.

-
One thing I will most certainly differ with the Bush supporters is that I think a large portion of any budget increase should go towards teacher salary. If we continue to pay teachers a lower wage than most "professional" careers, then it is my contention you will continue to draw from the bottom of the barrel. Oh, I realize many very bright people go into teaching. But they are generally those that have what I would refer to as "the calling". They feel a vocation for it, so they ignore the low salary to do something they love to do. But if you make teaching salaries more commensurate with salaries for people with equivalent education and certification in the corporate world, I truly believe a lot more people would decide that it was something they want to do. But if I have to choose between a $55,000 a year job in the corporate world and a $35,000 a year job teaching...well, not very many people are going to pick the latter.

I agree with this as well. I don't know how best to do it because, again, I don't want the Fed controlling this. But even school districts, that should get this, don't. A district here facing a budget crunch recently decided to get rid of some teachers rather than canceling a purely optional building project. We really have those priorities out of whack.

 

[wvrevy]

I'm unsure about the above. I understand your point, but I really would like to see schools still controlled at the local level as much as possible. If you could achieve that standard without the DOE running all of the schools I might be persuaded.

Actually, I'd like the DOE to become an actually useful organization, rather than just a pure bureaucracy. Leaving things in the hands of the states is what lands states like Mississippi, Arkansas, and West Virginia at the tail end of every school ranking on the books. It's not a stretch to think that is a correlation there to the fact that all three also fall towards the bottom in terms of poverty rankings. States could still opt to have higher standards than those set by the federal government. But there needs to be something in place to protect the children of those states that really do have problems.

I agree with this as well. I don't know how best to do it because, again, I don't want the Fed controlling this. But even school districts, that should get this, don't. A district here facing a budget crunch recently decided to get rid of some teachers rather than canceling a purely optional building project. We really have those priorities out of whack.

Again, I guess what makes me a Democrat is that I don't see what the problem is with having the government fix problems like this. The situation you point out should never happen, and a strong DOE could help stop it from happening again. It's obvious, from situations like this too numerous to mention, that state's aren't up to the challenge. The U.S. has fallen behind pretty much every industrialized nation in terms of educating it's citizens. If the individual states won't do something about it, the federal government needs to.

 

[Bella the Ball 360]

Quote:wvrevy
"One thing I will most certainly differ with the Bush supporters is that I think a large portion of any budget increase should go towards teacher salary. If we continue to pay teachers a lower wage than most "professional" careers, then it is my contention you will continue to draw from the bottom of the barrel."

HMM "bottom of the barrel" undergrad, masters,MTEL(cert test), minimum of 100+hrs prof development for recertification per year(actual closer to 1000 hrs over last 5 yrs for me), highly qualified status as defined by NCLB. Can you tell me what you think would be top of the barrel?? That is the requirement in my state for the bare minimum certification. OH and by the way I am a Phikappaphi w/ 4.0 average. Maybe it is not a matter of money but a matter of being disparaged by a thankless public that keeps the "cream of the crop" out of the profession.

 

[meandtheguys2]

FTR, the Clinton admin. attempted to come up with a national testing sytem. It didn't fly for various reasons.

We can't agree in OH what belongs on the tests just for this state, with the need to keep all of the special interest groups happy! Both the left and the right are a pain, BTW. Really strange process! Theoretically the right has moral control and the left has control of the language.

Bad test takers...I married one. It wasn't until he was in college that he learned to control the test anxiety and do well on tests! BUT he learns the material much more thoroughlly than i did, and I was a great test taker.

 

[momof2inPA]

HMM "bottom of the barrel" undergrad, masters,MTEL(cert test), minimum of 100+hrs prof development for recertification per year(actual closer to 1000 hrs over last 5 yrs for me), highly qualified status as defined by NCLB. Can you tell me what you think would be top of the barrel?? That is the requirement in my state for the bare minimum certification. OH and by the way I am a Phikappaphi w/ 4.0 average. Maybe it is not a matter of money but a matter of being disparaged by a thankless public that keeps the "cream of the crop" out of the profession.

wvrevy made an exception. He said, paraphrasing, that the teaching profession was made up of those who felt a true calling to that profession and those that, well entered that major for other reasons. Like it or not, Elementary Education was the fall back major at my school, for those that could not make it in their original chosen field of study. Was that not true, at your college or university?

 

[Caradana]

wvrevy made an exception. He said, paraphrasing, that the teaching profession was made up of those who felt a true calling to that profession and those that, well entered that major for other reasons. Like it or not, Elementary Education was the fall back major at my school, for those that could not make it in their original chosen field of study. Was that not true, at your college or university?

Not true @ mine; actually, Teacher Prep was the only program at mine that required you to stay in school an extra half-semester to finish. Where did you go to college that this was true? And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you foresake engineering to become, functionally speaking, a teacher?

 

[janette]

Chicago: there's a very real debate about social promotion, and compelling arguments on both sides. There are some kids who would never approach a 12th grade level if you kept them in school until they needed walkers and canes. You have to graduate them and let them live their lives at some point ...

Very true, I hope that my 10yo DD will eventually achieve 12th grade level in reading / writing but the actuality of her LD make it unlikely that she'll ever be able to sit down and write a free form essay at a 12th grade level. With computer & other assistance she should be able to produce a 12th grade level paper and would have the knowledge required about the subjects but to be able to write it out in proper format in a test environment might not be something she'll ever be able to do. She reads / writes at about 2nd grade level now and is in 4th grade, what good would it do to have her in a 2nd grade class besides completely discourage her from even trying. She scores at 2nd grade in oral reading and 6th grade in comprehension, LD kids should never be kept at the lower end of their abilities.

I'm sure she'll do fine in whatever her chosen profession is, getting through the academic world will be a challenge for all of us.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

Well, well, well.

DS recently took his first TAKS test. Reading. Passing score required for promotion to 4th grade.

Reading comprehension is not his strong suit, I'll admit. Academically I would say he is average. He is bright but not terribly interested - he does what he needs to do to get by and if I push him he gets snarly. Even without extreme effort he makes A's and B's. He did get a C in math last time because he has LOTS of trouble in math, even with a private tutor.

Note comes home in January saying he needs to attend "Saturday school" for 6 weeks (3 hours each time) so he will be better prepared for the TAKS. Did they think he was going to FAIL? So I called the teacher, she said he has a little trouble focusing (we knew this) and she thought some additional practice would help him. Hmm. OK. So off to Saturday school. Only ended up being 5 weeks because the last one would have fallen on President's weekend.

He takes the test. Several weeks later he brings home a certificate saying he passed, but they don't have the actual scores. What? Why do they bother to generate a separate pass/fail roster? Why not just send the scores? Whatever.

Last week we get the "official" document. PERFECT score. He missed NONE. How am I supposed to feel about this? Do we jump for joy and thank our lucky stars that our public school made DS spend an extra 15 hours getting ready? Do we figure that Saturday school probably wasn't necessary? How hard was that test, anyway? If they were TRULY concerned that he wouldn't pass yet he got a perfect score then something seems amiss. Either they WAY misjudged my child or they WAY misjudged the material on the test.

Obviously I am happy that he is going to 4th grade. Mark that off my list of things to worry about! I just don't think this test can POSSIBLY be an accurate indicator of much of anything. THAT is something to really worry about!