Rant about state testing in schools

[Rokkitsci]

It is nearly impossible in PA to have the alternate tese )pasa) given to students with disabilities. Students are expected to take a test on grade level, whether or not they have the aptitudeie. mental retardation, recent immigrant from a non english speaking country, etc...

HERE is the funny part...by 2012, the NCLB act demands that EVERY child be at the proficient level, regardless of IQ or learning disability....100%!!!!. It is an act designed to fail, & designed to end public education.

(by the way, i voted for & support bush...this is clearly a bipartisan disaster)

I am certainly no expert in the wording of the NCLB. But I cannot fathom that it actuallys says that. It is clearly impossible for this to be achieved. Something must be misunderstood here.
I am all for the intent of the NCLB. It is causing some startup pains, because I believe that so many teachers have been teaching something other than what is needed in the basic skills.
However, I also know that not every child can acutally learn every subject. There ARE differences in basic motivation, capacity, and ambition that should be taken into account. I do not think we should force every student into a college-bound curriculum especially if they have no interest or plan or capability to pursue a college education. We need other educational outlets for them - perhaps some that do not require Algebra II skills. We are going to need plumbers and electricians for a long time. Teach them these skills if that is all they want to do.
I am still a great advocate of the high stakes testing. I want accountability in the lower grades. I want them to start preparing students for high school. Self esteem will follow accomplishment.

 

[always quiet]

Both my girls aren't bad students (solid B averages). In all the previous years, the state testing never bothered them either way. They always scored well. The teachers have them freaked out so much, they are scared to death this time! Don't they realize that the added pressure they put on the kids is only going to make them score worse....they are too worried about how they'll do. The girls were also each told that these grades will be a part of their "permanent record".....yeah..............no stress here!!!

 

[Figment]

I am certainly no expert in the wording of the NCLB. But I cannot fathom that it actuallys says that. It is clearly impossible for this to be achieved. Something must be misunderstood here.

I am not mistaken. Read it. I just finished my master's with my admin certification. I studied the bill quite extensively.

I am all for the intent of the NCLB. It is causing some startup pains, because I believe that so many teachers have been teaching something other than what is needed in the basic skills.

If you think the problem in our schools is our teachers, you will find out differently, with more experience. As with every profession, there are poor performers, but it is my experience that 90% or so are doing an admirable jop. The problem lies in politicians making educational decisions, administrators not supporting the teachers, and parents not doing their jobs. Are there bad teachers? of course. But, they are far outweighed by the good ones.

However, I also know that not every child can acutally learn every subject. There ARE differences in basic motivation, capacity, and ambition that should be taken into account.

The "intent" of NCLB disagrees with you.

I do not think we should force every student into a college-bound curriculum especially if they have no interest or plan or capability to pursue a college education. We need other educational outlets for them - perhaps some that do not require Algebra II skills. We are going to need plumbers and electricians for a long time. Teach them these skills if that is all they want to do.

plumbers & electricians need algrbra II skills...
There are Vo-Tech programs which help students, but they are still required to take the basic english, math & phys ed requirements.


I

am still a great advocate of the high stakes testing. I want accountability in the lower grades. I want them to start preparing students for high school. Self esteem will follow accomplishment.

Stay around long enough, & you will see that those tests aren't worth the paper they are written on.

 

[Figment]

Both my girls aren't bad students (solid B averages). In all the previous years, the state testing never bothered them either way. They always scored well. The teachers have them freaked out so much, they are scared to death this time! Don't they realize that the added pressure they put on the kids is only going to make them score worse....they are too worried about how they'll do. The girls were also each told that these grades will be a part of their "permanent record".....yeah..............no stress here!!!

Believe me, these teachers are following orders from above. They are being told to tell the students this. The grades will appear on transcripts, but if their grades are good enough, it should have no bearing upon their future plans.

 

[Rokkitsci]

I am not mistaken. Read it. I just finished my master's with my admin certification. I studied the bill quite extensively.

....

Stay around long enough, & you will see that those tests aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I will have to take your word for it. But anything that is clearly impossible just doesn't make sense. How did it ever get passed with that wording?

Perhaps these specific tests are not very good. But again, I have actually looked at the math tests. I found nothing on them that a math student should not have been taught.

What I do find is that the test questions are worded in such a fashion that they are extremely EASY to answer IF you know anything at all about the concept being tested. So in that respect - I think that they are VERY GOOD. I would hate to have to come up with a corresponding set of questions that did as good - or better - job.

If and when such a better test comes along I will embrace it too.

Do you really have an objection to the content of the test?? If so could you articulate exactly what you don't like about the content? Is it too hard, too easy, too irrelevant, too detailed, too what?????

Or is it the basic idea of the test that you disagree with. I happen to think it is a great idea. If there is a better idea on how to gauge the universal educational level of our students, I would like to hear it.

What I think is being revealed by the tests is the very situation I have discovered in my classroom. Students are being shuffled from one grade to the next higher grade without actually having learned anything. Eventually the get a high school diploma and don't have the minimum education required to be considered a high school graduate.

I want to be able to teach high school math. I do not think high school is the place to learn multiplication facts, or how to deal with fractions, or how to solve elementary word problems. So far, what I want to do is being frustrated by having to teach fifth, sixth, and seventh grade mathematics to Juniors and Seniors in high school. But they do all have great self-esteem. They laugh and compare grades to see who "won" getting the lowest grade on a test.

 

[Rokkitsci]

I think that you are missing the larger point. I expect the students I do to do well on these test...IF THEY APPLY THEMSELVES. But, in PA, there is no incentive for students to take these tests seriously. They do not affect graduation or grade advancement. All they do is assess teachers. But, if the students do not take them seriously, and the scores are bad, what then? The teachers look incompetent, even though they could be doing a good job. Many times, administrators' jobs rest on the results of test scores. Kids know this. There are principals that Kids do not like. There is a movement among the kids to bomb the test this week in an effort to oust the administrator. Is this what you are in favor of? The testing in the classroom environment can assess whether or not a child is achieving at an adequate level. As professionals, we should be respected enough to monitor their achievement. Sadly, we are not.

My apology - I did not see this post of yours.
I may well have missed you point.
In Louisiana, students are required to pass these tests in order to graduate. So it IS to their advantage to at least pass them. Or else they have to come back the next semester - or for seniors, the summer - to take remedial courses and then they still have to pass in order to get their diploma.
If there is a conspiracy to bomb the test, then that is an example of a much larger problem - that being general disrespect for school in general and authority figures in particular.
Testing obviously will not attack that problem. We need to resort to corporal punishment in elementary school for this.

 

[momof2inPA]

I have to disagree. I am a great proponent of testing - high stakes included. I have not looked at a science test, but I have looked at the math tests. If the content of the science test is anywhere near the content of the math test, I would have to ask you = "what are you teaching if you are not teaching the stuff on the test?"
I have found NOTHING on the math test that should not be taught.

Here's an example of something tested in the PSSA's at the third grade level that is absolutely worthless and pointless to the student-- math journaling. That's where you do a math problem, and write down in words step by step how you did it. Honestly, if you can do the Math, there's no point in explaining it with words, but Pennsylvania wastes teacher's class time by requiring it for the tests. It's pointless.

 

[janette]

I will have to take your word for it. But anything that is clearly impossible just doesn't make sense. How did it ever get passed with that wording?

Politicians passed the law, not teachers.

Perhaps these specific tests are not very good. But again, I have actually looked at the math tests. I found nothing on them that a math student should not have been taught.

My younger DD has no trouble with math but without modifications would have a hard time passing the test. She doesn't read well enough to do the story problems, she has no trouble with the concepts just the mechanics. Math especially is an area where some students just don't test well, doesn't always mean they don't know the subject. Surely you have some students who do much better depending on the type of test or presentation given in class.

Do you really have an objection to the content of the test?? If so could you articulate exactly what you don't like about the content? Is it too hard, too easy, too irrelevant, too detailed, too what?????

Or is it the basic idea of the test that you disagree with. I happen to think it is a great idea. If there is a better idea on how to gauge the universal educational level of our students, I would like to hear it.

I have no problem with the tests, just think they should be balanced with other measurements. How about parent involvement? How much has the school improved? Do they have mentor programs? Do they participate in academic competitions (UIL/Science Fair etc) ? What educational level are their teachers? How well do they retain teachers? There are many more aspects to a good school than how the students do on a yearly test.

What I think is being revealed by the tests is the very situation I have discovered in my classroom. Students are being shuffled from one grade to the next higher grade without actually having learned anything. Eventually the get a high school diploma and don't have the minimum education required to be considered a high school graduate.

The tests have been in place in TX for several years and haven't really solved this problem. Don't know what the answer is but all that TX seems to have accomplished is an even higher drop out rate. How is that helping?

 

[lewdyan1]

In Florida we have the FCAT. When you take the test in certain grades (I know 3rd grade is one) and you don't do well then you will not get promoted to the next grade. I feel that elementary is too young to start the pass or fail and you only get one chances to take the test. What if your child makes A's and B's, but has a bad day and doesn't test well and he/she fail? Does she/he have to repeat the 3rd grade and become bored with school because she/he already knows the stuff?

I don't think testing is the answer to our school problems. Part of the problem are parents and you can't really do anything about that.

If a child fails the third grade FCAT, they are not automatically retained. They can be promoted by passing another series of assessments or by a portfolio the teachers are required to maintain.

I am by no means a proponent of testing, I especially am sick over the idea that special needs children are given the same grade level test and are expected to pass. Obviously, these kids are at a different level and should be tested differently...don't get me started, you get my point.

 

[sjh801]

Keep this one bumped to the first page.

Shall I hold my tongue???

 

[Bayshore Bandit]

All of the gripes and complaints about standardized testing need to be
laid at the doorstep of one place......state legislatures. They are the
ones who set the rules, CHANGE the rules when schools become successful
(here in Ohio anyway), and release the results.

A previous poster who thought the teacher released the students scores
to the newspaper may just be mis-informed. First, they are a matter of
public record, second, it is usually the state that does the releasing of
information.

State legislatures are the ones causing all the headaches, the schools,
and henceforth the teachers, are the ones being thrown under bus. I hate
the fact that my students are judged on one week's performance, in March
no less. There is a house bill in our General Assembly that would move testing
to May.....finally some commen sense....which means it probably won't pass.

As a teacher, I do not mind proficiencey and achievement testing, and
I'll never run from my accountability, but all I ask is that there is a level
playing field and I get judged fairly.
For example, there is a child who has not attended our school for 2 years
(he goes to an alternate school for severe behavior issues), he had to take
the 4th grade achievement and proficiency tests, and they will COUNT on
our buildings scorecard because he resides in our district. I've never met
the kid, yet his scores will reflect if I'm "doing my job".
(And yes, I've already e-mailed and called my state reps and state senator)

So for those parents who are out to trash the teachers for putting too much
pressure on your children, you might want to do a little research before
directing your frustration. We are the low man on the totem pole when
it comes to decisions about standardized testing. Start with your state
governments and then work your way down.

 

[janette]

So for those parents who are out to trash the teachers for putting too much
pressure on your children, you might want to do a little research before
directing your frustration. We are the low man on the totem pole when
it comes to decisions about standardized testing. Start with your state
governments and then work your way down.

I've never thought this to be a result of the teachers, the politicians are the ones who think these tests are the answer. IMO it is just a way for them to pat themselves on the back and say "Look what we've done for the schools". None of the school success stories I've read have been the result of testing. We've have schools in TX that are in serious shape, what have the standardized tests done for them? Yet this state is what Bush patterned NCLB after. There has to be a better way but until our politicians decide that they should ask the ones doing the work it won't happen.

 

[Rokkitsci]

Here's an example of something tested in the PSSA's at the third grade level that is absolutely worthless and pointless to the student-- math journaling. That's where you do a math problem, and write down in words step by step how you did it. Honestly, if you can do the Math, there's no point in explaining it with words, but Pennsylvania wastes teacher's class time by requiring it for the tests. It's pointless.

I could not disagree with you more.

In fact, I have spent a lot of time today preparing lesson plans for my return to class tomorrow, following Easter Break. One of the ideas that I am considering is to give the class a couple of very simple problems, and ask them to write down not only WHAT they do in each step but also to explain WHY they are doing it.

I normally give a "five minute check" or "warmup" exercise every day as the first thing - something to keep them busy while I attend to the clerical duties of taking role, passing out graded assignments, etc. The other thing this accomplishes is to find out how much of the previous day's lesson they retained.

Obviously, after a week off from school, they will have not retained much from the 'previous lesson.' But, it is my opinion that they need to put some more THOUGHT into what they are doing. It is far too easy for them to just jot down something without much thought.

SO - I thought - how about giving them some ridiculously easy problem for this next warmup quiz, and requiring that they EXPLAIN the process they are using to solve it.

I would be ENORMOUSLY gratified to know that some teachers in our lower levels were making this a matter of importance.

 

[Rokkitsci]

I hate the fact that my students are judged on one week's performance, in March no less. There is a house bill in our General Assembly that would move testing to May.....finally some commen sense....which means it probably won't pass.

As a teacher, I do not mind proficiencey and achievement testing, and
I'll never run from my accountability, but all I ask is that there is a level
playing field and I get judged fairly.
For example, there is a child who has not attended our school for 2 years
(he goes to an alternate school for severe behavior issues), he had to take
the 4th grade achievement and proficiency tests, and they will COUNT on
our buildings scorecard because he resides in our district. I've never met
the kid, yet his scores will reflect if I'm "doing my job".

I have to agree with both the above points. I have always advocated for doing these tests in the final weeks of school, not during the school year. I too have written to legislators suggesting this. The schools cannot do it themselves.
And on the second point, you are also correct. But really, is one child that much of an impact? It is my opinion that those who are in "alternative" schools should definitely be tested separately from the 'regular education' classes.
But this is a cross we must all bear. There is much inefficiency in the system that I would like to eliminate. Perhaps it is a matter of time until the system improves itself.
In the meantime, I am more happy that SOMETHING is being done than I am sad that it is not PERFECT.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

If a child fails the third grade FCAT, they are not automatically retained. They can be promoted by passing another series of assessments or by a portfolio the teachers are required to maintain.

I am by no means a proponent of testing, I especially am sick over the idea that special needs children are given the same grade level test and are expected to pass. Obviously, these kids are at a different level and should be tested differently...don't get me started, you get my point.

Thanks for the info. I agree with you that special needs children should be tested differently. Maybe in a few years the legislature will figure this out.

 

[swilphil]

I am certainly no expert in the wording of the NCLB. But I cannot fathom that it actuallys says that. It is clearly impossible for this to be achieved. Something must be misunderstood here.

She is correct. NCLB does say that 100 percent of students must reach proficiency. That's why it's called "NO CHILD Left Behind." It's great in theory, but I agree that it's impossible to be achieved. That's why there are so many teachers who are against NCLB, not because they aren't teaching what they should be. Another problem is that we keep packing more things into the curriculum.

 

[Boston Tea Party]

I've read somewhere that NCLB will eventually limit the % of children allowed to take alternative tests or have modifications. That is crazy, how can a school control what % of their kids need alternatives.

They tell us that only 10% of our kids should have learning disabilities. We don't really have any control over that, now do we?

 

[denecarter]

I have to disagree. I am a great proponent of testing - high stakes included. I have not looked at a science test, but I have looked at the math tests. If the content of the science test is anywhere near the content of the math test, I would have to ask you = "what are you teaching if you are not teaching the stuff on the test?"
I have found NOTHING on the math test that should not be taught. In fact, the only problem I have is that I don't have time to get around to teaching all the stuff that is on the test because I have to spend so much time reviewing really basic fundamentals that ought not have to be reviewed in high school.
I look forward to the day that these evil standardized tests force teachers in lower levels to actually TEACH MATH instead of whatever it is that they would "rather be teaching." It is my opinion that you should not even CONSIDER teaching anything else as long as students cannot master these standard tests. These tests are NOT HARD. They are EXTREMELY EASY. If a student cannot nail these tests, it proves that he doesn't KNOW the subject. It shows that he may have "learned" some pet ideas of his particular teacher, or knows how to parrot some stuff is asked with 'just the right words' but is woefully uneducated in the subject.
I have never undertood the reluctance of teachers to have their students take these tests, unless they are afraid that their shortcomings will be revealed.
I WANT to know if what I am teaching prepares my students to answer when SOMEONE ELSE asks them a question.

I do teach what the state of Texas says I should teach (although, I personally feel it is a mile wide and an inch deep). I want to prepare my students for the next level as well. What I'd "rather" teach is science every class period. I'd "rather not" be told I have to give up valuable class time to take practice tests for field tests that won't count. I'd "rather not" have to stop teaching they're high school level course (Integrated Physics & Chemistry) for two weeks to review for a field test that won't count. I'd "rather not" give up class time for abstinence programs,sexual harassment awareness, etc. (study hall would be a better time). I have three classes of 7th Honors Science (who cover 2/3 of 7th grade information, all of 8th grade information) and three classes of IPC. The IPC students (8th graders) will be the ones taking this test... some had 7th honors last year (with a different teacher) where they hopefully covered all of the 8th grade stuff... and some did not (have 7th honors). And while my true honors students will have no trouble passing the test (even though, they are studying high school science and aren't actually studying the information this year), my classes don't contain just "honors" students. Our district told our school to "open up the honors courses", so there are many students that are in my class that never had any of the information taught in 8th grade science (the majority of the test).
SOOO, I want students to come to me prepared (like you). I know that sometimes they aren't for reasons other than the teacher "just teaching what they wanted" (for instance, schools actually making science teachers "do math tutorials" for two months). I want to prepare my students for the future (like you). I can't cover everything because of reviewing (like you), practice tests, etc.

And just to let you know that I do teach what I'm "supposed to" and not my "pet" topics... 96% of my high school biology students passed the end of course exam (when it was given) and 95% of my 8th graders passed the old assessment, TAAS (when it was given). I rarely did benchmarks and NEVER did reviews/tutorials BECAUSE I SPENT THE CLASS TIME TEACHING THE CONTENT. I'm not "afraid" of the tests, I just think the insanity they create are a pain in the butt.

 

[Rokkitsci]

I rarely did benchmarks and NEVER did reviews/tutorials BECAUSE I SPENT THE CLASS TIME TEACHING THE CONTENT. I'm not "afraid" of the tests, I just think the insanity they create are a pain in the butt.

I agree totally with you on this. I do not like the emphasis that the administration gives to "preparing for the test." I would not be afraid for them to pop in at any time and give my students "the test." What I teach is what is on the test anyway. I have found nothing on it that I think inappropriate.

My comments are directed to those who ARE afraid of what may turn up on "the test." I know of one instance in my own high school where the teacher wastes so much time during the year that her students have never even heard of half the stuff that will covered on the test. She devoted a full month after New Years to "reviewing for the test" where all she did was take a released version of an old test and showied her students "how to work it." I find this abhorrant.

 

[chobie]

She is correct. NCLB does say that 100 percent of students must reach proficiency. That's why it's called "NO CHILD Left Behind." It's great in theory, but I agree that it's impossible to be achieved. That's why there are so many teachers who are against NCLB, not because they aren't teaching what they should be. Another problem is that we keep packing more things into the curriculum.

Yes, that is the intent of NCLB. Not only is that an impossible goal, they have left the funding behind to even try to attempt this impossible goal.