Racism or just enforcing rules?

[Hikergirl]

I've read several of the links provided and watched one of the videos - it's baffling why they women were approached in the first place. Were they being watched and timed on the holes? If the group behind them didn't complain to the course marshal, how did this even become an issue to begin with if everybody was just golfing along and minding their own business? And the "confrontation" shown in the video seems very, very benign - no raised voices or any implication that things would get volatile.

I can't even figure out what happened, let alone why it happened.

The owner (or whoever that was) mentioned they timed them on a hole, my first impression isn't racism but maybe sexism. They see a group of ladies playing and keep keep an eye on them to make sure they are keeping up with the men, or not holding the men back.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I've read several of the links provided and watched one of the videos - it's baffling why they women were approached in the first place. Were they being watched and timed on the holes? If the group behind them didn't complain to the course marshal, how did this even become an issue to begin with if everybody was just golfing along and minding their own business? And the "confrontation" shown in the video seems very, very benign - no raised voices or any implication that things would get volatile.

I can't even figure out what happened, let alone why it happened.

The owner (or whoever that was) mentioned they timed them on a hole, my first impression isn't racism but maybe sexism. They see a group of ladies playing and keep keep an eye on them to make sure they are keeping up with the men, or not holding the men back.

Or because they were suspicious of a group of five? (I didn't think that was allowed in golf. )

Or were they getting loud/obnoxious on the beer break they mentioned? (I have no reason to suspect that from where I am. I'm just saying I don't know much of the surrounding information.)

It definitely wouldn't surprise me if this was about race! But it also wouldn't surprise me if it was about sex, or behavior, or the owner just being in a crappy mood. I just think my viewpoint is just too far away to know everything.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I can't even figure out what happened, let alone why it happened.

The owner (or whoever that was) mentioned they timed them on a hole, my first impression isn't racism but maybe sexism. They see a group of ladies playing and keep keep an eye on them to make sure they are keeping up with the men, or not holding the men back.

These women have even said they believe the motive might have been sexism.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

This was based on racism.

The young men arrested at Starbucks was based on racism.

The service women verbally abused and attacked at Cheddars in Georgia was based on racism.

I could go on, but will stop there

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of food.

 

[Hikergirl]

These women have even said they believe the motive might have been sexism.

I don't like to automatically assume anything without more to the story, but I know that if I was to get together with a group of girl friends and go on an outing we would probably be enjoying each other's company more than focusing on our activity. On a golf course, I could see us all chatting away, taking our time playing, sipping our beers and not really paying attention to the time.
I don't know what a group of men typically do- my dad golfs and I know he isn't there to chit chat, he goes to golf. I don't know what standard behavior on a golf course is, but maybe the owners/management thought these ladies weren't behaving within the rules.

I think calling the police is over the top, unless the women were getting physically combative, which judging by their demeanor on that video that doesn't seem like the case at all.
I think looking at the history of the management would help, is this typical for them to do, do they have a history of singling out groups of women, or of black people, or other minorities? Or do they just have a history of acting like ***** depending on how the wind blows.

 

[maxiesmom]

So it is customary for golf courses to basically kick out their members for playing slow?
Does that mean they are no longer members at all and can't come back to play there?

No it is not customary to kick out members for playing too slow. The normal thing to do would be to ask to Play Through the slower members. Not to pitch a fit and call the police.

I have to add, I find it highly offensive the implication that women golfers wouldn't be into the game and would instead be chatting and drinking. My niece played golf on a college scholarship, and I can tell you she was not and is not now out on the course chatting instead of playing. Some women do know the rules and follow them.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I don’t understand why the guy behind them said they weren’t too slow when the lady herself said that they were. That’s confusing.

Self-assessment vs external rating. At least one person of the three directly following the women, so the most directly affected by speed of play, considered the women to be not-slow.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Or because they were suspicious of a group of five? (I didn't think that was allowed in golf. )

Or were they getting loud/obnoxious on the beer break they mentioned? (I have no reason to suspect that from where I am. I'm just saying I don't know much of the surrounding information.)

It definitely wouldn't surprise me if this was about race! But it also wouldn't surprise me if it was about sex, or behavior, or the owner just being in a crappy mood. I just think my viewpoint is just too far away to know everything.

I think there almost has to be some history here. No, groups of 5 are not generally permitted. Did management butt heads with them prior to the round? “We’ll let you go, but by golly you’d BETTER not hold anyone up!”.

I’m definitely not ruling out racism and/or sexism, but I find it hard to believe there wasn’t something more (however slight) that set this all in motion. As members, this surely wasn’t their first time on the course.

 

[monsterkitty]

This article says the police were called twice - the first time was when the women were at the second hole. https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018...ck-women-confronted-over-pace-play/559671002/

The first call to police came in at 11:24 a.m., Northern York County Regional Police Chief Mark Bentzel said, after management had an interaction with the golfers. The police then were told they were not needed.

Thompson said she was at the second hole the first time Steve Chronister, whose son, Jordan, and daughter-in-law, JJ, own the golf course, told her she was moving too slow on the course. She said she had no idea that police had been called at that time.

5 golfers in a group are not usually allowed but this course may allow 5. If this was the case, the club knew they were a group of 5 and allowed them to start. If 5 weren't allowed then the starter would have said, hey, 5 people can't golf together. The club would have also known when the women made the tee time.

The club knew they were a group of 5. They let them start. The club called the police on the second hole after he talked to the women. The group behind them never caught them.

The women were targeted for some reason.​

Was is it racism, sexism, or both? Neither should be occurring but yet they are.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I don't like to automatically assume anything without more to the story, but I know that if I was to get together with a group of girl friends and go on an outing we would probably be enjoying each other's company more than focusing on our activity. On a golf course, I could see us all chatting away, taking our time playing, sipping our beers and not really paying attention to the time.
I don't know what a group of men typically do- my dad golfs and I know he isn't there to chit chat, he goes to golf. I don't know what standard behavior on a golf course is, but maybe the owners/management thought these ladies weren't behaving within the rules.

I think calling the police is over the top, unless the women were getting physically combative, which judging by their demeanor on that video that doesn't seem like the case at all.
I think looking at the history of the management would help, is this typical for them to do, do they have a history of singling out groups of women, or of black people, or other minorities? Or do they just have a history of acting like ***** depending on how the wind blows.

Men & women both do that on the course. It just depends on the group. Some men (and women) make it a mission to play as fast as possible. Others lollygag, especially of they’re enjoying beer. In my experience, the absolute worst ones are those that think they are serious golfers, but really aren’t very good at it. Those guys (and in my experience, it’s always middle aged men) are the worst!

 

[Kellykins1218]

They skipped a hole AND let another group play through. There was no reason to call the police. I’m not even sure how anyone would even think that was appropriate. I can’t believe anyone could even consider defending the golf course.

 

[Hikergirl]

Wait, the police were called before anyone even spoke to the women and they were only at the 2nd hole?
WTH could have happened to warrant that?

They also were offered checks to refund the money they paid for a membership to play at a reduced rate.

This caught my eye in the article the pp linked. Maybe they got some kind of deal- a groupon or living social thing and the owners were already looking at them as a problem.
I say that because sometimes when I use a groupon at places I get a little bit of attitude like I'm not good enough for their establishment because I didn't pay full price kind of thing.

 

[disneyjunkie]

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of food.

People sit in Starbuck without making purchases everyday. I hate Starbucks coffee, yet I sit in there often just to use their Wi-Fi

 

[Gumbo4x4]

They skipped a hole AND let another group play through. There was no reason to call the police. I’m not even sure how anyone would even think that was appropriate. I can’t believe anyone could even consider defending the golf course.

Okay, so lots of conflicting reports. You’re saying they skipped a hole and let a group play through.

PP is saying they only made it to the 2nd hole and nobody caught up to them.

I really don’t think we have the straight story. BTW, I don’t think anyone is suggesting calling the police was warranted.

 

[Hikergirl]

Okay, so lots of conflicting reports. You’re saying they skipped a hole and let a group play through.

PP is saying they only made it to the 2nd hole and nobody caught up to them.

I really don’t think we have the straight story. BTW, I don’t think anyone is suggesting calling the police was warranted.

They went past the 2nd hole, apparently it was at the 2nd hole where they were first confronted by someone from the course. The 2nd time was the 9th (or 8th).

 

[Gumbo4x4]

People sit in Starbuck without making purchases everyday. I hate Starbucks coffee, yet I sit in there often just to use their Wi-Fi

And people of all races are asked to leave Starbucks every day too. Most have a 30 minute limit and while they’ll often look the other way if you exceed it, it’s not the case in every store, particularly when the place is busy. I have a friend whose 20-something son has been booted from the same Starbucks more than a dozen times while in there using the wi-fi.

 

[Skywalker]

I remember when we went golfing as a family at a fairly snooty course...it was me my husband and two sons. My husband and one son are awesome golfers, me and my other son not so much. So we were slow. I remember this course marshall guy came up to us about every other hole telling us we were too slow. We said we knew and were letting other groups ahead. He bothered us so much that me and my son stopped playing and only let the "good golfers" in our group finish up so we could speed it up. This marshall guy was picking on us for sure, but in the end we just laughed and we joke about the time we were so bad were harassed off the golf course. If we had argued with him who knows what have happened. Could he have called the police, maybe but we never got involved in an altercation. We follow rules. But if this happened to a black group I'd be willing to bet some would easily jump to "racism", or that they were only under scrutiny because they were black. I have heard this so often. Anytime something bad, uncomfortable, unfair, etc. happens to you it doesn't mean it's automatically about race.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Wait, the police were called before anyone even spoke to the women and they were only at the 2nd hole?
WTH could have happened to warrant that?

They also were offered checks to refund the money they paid for a membership to play at a reduced rate.

This caught my eye in the article the pp linked. Maybe they got some kind of deal- a groupon or living social thing and the owners were already looking at them as a problem.
I say that because sometimes when I use a groupon at places I get a little bit of attitude like I'm not good enough for their establishment because I didn't pay full price kind of thing.

Yeah, there’s something here we’re not seeing. Could be that something is still just based on racism and/or sexism, but even the biggest bigot in the World doesn’t wig out & confront someone by the 2nd hole.

 

[luvsJack]

People sit in Starbuck without making purchases everyday. I hate Starbucks coffee, yet I sit in there often just to use their Wi-Fi

Not at our’s. It is usually pretty full of college students and a few high school students that need the WiFi and they are required to be a customer.

Just like a parking lot that says “for customers only”, they have every right to limit the limited seating to paying customers.

 

[mjkacmom]

And people of all races are asked to leave Starbucks every day too. Most have a 30 minute limit and while they’ll often look the other way if you exceed it, it’s not the case in every store, particularly when the place is busy. I have a friend whose 20-something son has been booted from the same Starbucks more than a dozen times while in there using the wi-fi.

And there is a difference between businesses in cities vs. suburbs. I can walk into my local Starbucks and use the bathroom, heck dd15’s usual order is ice water, free. I can’t walk into a Starbucks in NYC and expect to be able to use the bathroom without a purchase.