Race Etiquette: should runDisney provide more instructions?

[thotfulspot]

This is a thought I had after reading a number of runner vs. walker gripes on facebook and here: should runDisney do something before each race to educate the participants on race etiquette? Disney races attract a lot of people who are running their first race and may never have heard anything about how to behave in the crowd. Things like runners to the left and walkers to the right, what signal to give when you're about to change from running to walking, etc.

It strikes me that they could put together a lively, entertaining short film or cartoon to be shown on the big screens as everyone's waiting to get started with race dos and don'ts.

What do you think? Should people just already know what to do on a race course or would it be helpful to have some basic information on that as part of the pre-race prep time?

 

[dburg30]

Since I've never done one not sure exactly what to expect, but I look at it the same way as driving on the freeway. You will have people that no matter what the rules are, will do whatever they want because they paid money for this race and they will do it however they feel like doing it.

Should they still try a little harder and maybe even have some reminders along the route? I think so, sometimes people just forget. They are in the middle of trying just to complete the marathon, so may not exactly be paying attention to everything they should be.

 

[dragitoff]

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to include it in your race packet. One thing that honestly blew my mind was how many people stopped on the side of the road at the beginning of the race to relieve themselves!

 

[jeanigor]

I think the video idea on the big screens prior to race start would be a fab idea. Last fall (haven't done any 2013 events yet) they had the characters in cheesy promo clips. No reason why they couldn't do something similar.

I can just see Donald breaking all the "rules". Zigging across the entire width of the course without looking to get a photo with a princess. Coming to a dead halt for a water stop, drinking his water and then starting again. Walking side by side with Daisy, Huey, Dewey, & Louie. Changing pace walk/run or run/walk without signaling. Tossing his 'throw away--stay warm' outer layers in the middle of the course.

While it would be cute, it would also be informative. If it was shown to a new runner at their first race, they might not have even thought or realized any of those things.

I think having decent race etiquette should be more analogous to saying Please and Thank You. It is a learned behavior that is not required, but polite, responsible and respectful. With a little bit of practice and implementation it is second nature.

 

[jeanigor]

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to include it in your race packet. One thing that honestly blew my mind was how many people stopped on the side of the road at the beginning of the race to relieve themselves!

Aren't there already tips included in the race instructions/race booklet? I swear I've read it there before (not about the public urinating, but creating a human wall).

 

[afnaechiquita]

I think an actual video would be pretty helpful so they can SHOW this is what you do, this is what you don't do. I believe there is already a tiny part in either the race packet or an email before the race that discusses it, but you'd miss it without really looking.

 

[longhorns2]

I actually think people know the etiquette- but the failure to be able to execute is the problem.

Here's my example from our PHM experience.

Walkers- this was my assessment during the princess. My group of 4 was doing walk run. We never walked or ran more than 2 across- usually we were single file due to the crowd. But if the two of us running together slowed down and got to the right, then another group of two (unrelated to us) doing their intervals slowed at the same time, it appeared we were a group of 4 walking abreast. Add a solo runner or two coming to a walk in their interval and you had what looked like a wall of people walking together.

The full on walkers seemed to stay to the right from my POV. But us walk/runners with short walk intervals seem to get stuck in weird spots when doing the transition.

I think we were the bigger problem to be honest. In theory--- we all WANTED and tried to get to the right. But when your walk interval is only 30 seconds, you spent more time moving over and getting behind folks than it seemed worth at certain points. I can think of a few times where we just stayed left rather than try to move over because it was already so congested- there wasn't anywhere to move to!

The issue really was too many people on a narrow course. runDisney needs to stagger corrals better, add corrals, or limit the amount of registrants. I don't think they will limit the amount of registrants, but the corrals or course might be a better way to spread us out a bit.

Putting more info out or a video or more emphasis on staying right certainly couldn't hurt! But I think most walkers know this--- it's a matter of making it happen.

I also think the runners need to be encouraged to get that 10K time submitted so they are placed properly. I don't think this is explained to runners very clearly- but that 10K time could make ALL the difference in your experience. More emphasis on proof of time might also help some runners who are very frustrated when starting in G or H corral.

 

[Diskidatheart]

I agree that videos would be helpful. I also believe that the more you tell people what to do, the better (continued reminders always help and especially being reminded on the course would be very helpful).

However, people need to be honest with themselves. If you are going to run a 3 1/2 hour half marathon because of pictures but are placed in Corral B because you ran a fast 10k, then you should move back a few corrals. This will never happen and people will jump corrals to avoid the long lines at the picture opportunities along the course. I don't think it's about not knowing etiquette, it's about being selfish and people thinking "It's only me, I won't back things up or cause any problems". Multiply that thinking by 10,000 and there's your problem.

 

[afnaechiquita]

I agree that videos would be helpful. I also believe that the more you tell people what to do, the better (continued reminders always help and especially being reminded on the course would be very helpful).

However, people need to be honest with themselves. If you are going to run a 3 1/2 hour half marathon because of pictures but are placed in Corral B because you ran a fast 10k, then you should move back a few corrals. This will never happen and people will jump corrals to avoid the long lines at the picture opportunities along the course. I don't think it's about not knowing etiquette, it's about being selfish and people thinking "It's only me, I won't back things up or cause any problems". Multiply that thinking by 10,000 and there's your problem.

I don't see how stopping for pictures affects the congestion on the course? If you're starting in B, planning on stopping for photos, you'd still be running the pace you had in your fast 10k, no? If anything I think the opposite would be true - you start in a later corral because you anticipate your total time will be ~3.5 hrs, but your actual RUN time is much faster. You'd be stuck running at a fast pace w/in people whose run time fits into 3.5 hrs, if that makes sense?

 

[cewait]

I think a video would be helpful…. But not useful.

I do think that there are many new runners who would enjoy the video and attempt to practice the tips. But frankly, the folks who are the abusers of normal etiquette are not the ones who will pay attention to the video. They are the folks who are plugged into the pods, the seasoned runners who never learned and those who think, yes, but I know I am not an abuser.

Unlike many, I do not think it a runner vs walker issue or a run/walker issue; it’s just common sense.

The two largest areas of bad etiquette are from official groups in the races… Clif Pace Teams and Galloway Pace Teams. These groups spread out wall to wall and consume the racecourse. I was pacing with the Galloway group in January and at the single lane bridge just after mile 1, the group leader was counting down for a walk. I yelled at her to run through the bridge and take the walk after the course widens. She looked at me like I was an idiot and proceeded to create a rolling roadblock across the road. It was more important to follow the run/walk rules than the rules of common sense and etiquette. Quoting a former neighbor, “You can’t fix stupid”. Stupid being the folks who know better or have the tools to know better but still refuse to use them.

Also, a lot of the problem is not the folks who are going slow – it’s also the fast runner. It’s the runner lined up too far back, who was late or who is impatient and trying to zig and zag to the front.

It’s also a Disney and Runner’s World issue. Through no fault of the runner, these two groups of geniuses allowed folks the ability to buy into the race through a RW entry and grab a spot in the front two corrals, regardless of ability. While few in number, they created a set of small road blocks.

Note that this is not a Disney problem alone. It is more a large race issue; one where the race officials have let the entries outrun the course capacities. Think of it like this. If a race has adopted a wave start system and the waves are more than “elite” and the rest of the pack, then the race is too large for it’s course. We were having a great discussion around a drink last January about the old days. When I first ran Disney, there were 10,405 finishers in the race (6903 full and 4502 half). We ran the same course on the same day. There was no real tight spots on the course.

I would applaud a video, but again, think the folks who abused common sense etiquette would think the video was not aimed at them.

 

[dragitoff]

Aren't there already tips included in the race instructions/race booklet? I swear I've read it there before (not about the public urinating, but creating a human wall).

I think you're right! THe video idea seems to be the best option. It would certainly fill the time better than some of the other stuff they do.

 

[cimrk01]

The video intro wouldn't hurt. I would have the runners stay towards the middle. If your a walker stay towards the left. If your a run/walker stay towards the right. For the latter group when going into your walking break raise your hand, call out walking, look back and pull over to the grass before stopping.

I was part of the latter group and followed this method and didn't have issues. Until I ran into other interval runners in front of me who would abruptly stop for their breaks with no warning and without looking back.

 

[Ariel484]

Aren't there already tips included in the race instructions/race booklet? I swear I've read it there before (not about the public urinating, but creating a human wall).

Yes. This year they had the tips in the final race instructions. I think people just don't read them.

I think the video is a good idea...but my first thought when I read that suggestion (besides that it's a good one! ) is that I probably would have missed the video completely during the race starts. For the half and full this year I remember standing in Corral C alternating between being completely unable to hear any of the interviews and just not paying attention because I was talking to other people and was so nervous that I was just kind of focusing inward.

A video would certainly be better than nothing, but beyond that I'm not sure what else they can do. They made the tips available in the instructions...it's up to the people that register to read them. And obviously that is not happening.

 

[Ariel484]

Its also a Disney and Runners World issue. Through no fault of the runner, these two groups of geniuses allowed folks the ability to buy into the race through a RW entry and grab a spot in the front two corrals, regardless of ability. While few in number, they created a set of small road blocks.

There are a number of things about runDisney races that are, I don't know, disheartening to me right now (ever-increasing registration prices - the ToT 10-miler price hike is INSANE, caps that are too high, etiquette issues, their medal policy, etc.), but this one is really up there for me. I was in Corral D for the marathon last year and was so proud that I was able to move into Corral C this year after working so hard (not that this was my main motivation for training hard...but it was definitely something I thought about). Then I read posts from some people, here and in other places, saying that because they signed up for the RW Challenge they were placed in Corral B. They even said they KNEW they didn't belong there, but were going to take the placement anyway. So if runDisney is going to let people buy spots, why do the rest of us have to submit times? Why have the corral system in place when they (runDisney/RW) are just going to mess it up? Do not like.

 

[MoonFaerie]

Unless they get rid of those really narrow stretches, it doesn't really matter.

At the Princess, I got overheated. I stopped sweating for a bit, and I had a really slow 1.5 miles starting around mile 9. (Yes, I was properly hydrated. No, I didn't go out too strong or try to push it. I'm on new meds due to high blood pressure due to having only one kidney. I hadn't done any training on these meds in high temps/high humidity, and I apparently have the rare side effect of increased heat & light sensitivity.) Anyway, it didn't matter where I tried to move to, I was getting run over. I started on the right side of the road. No luck there, and people were really rude. I was getting barreled over by groups of people running. I tried in the grass, but the uneven surface was causing me knee pain. Plus still getting run over, but at least it was by single runners instead of groups. (I was also afraid a medic would see me struggling and pull me out.) I finally moved towards the middle. I had the fewest issues there, so I hung out there. Once I started to feel better and tried to pick up my pace, there was no where to go.

FWIW, I was placed in corral D. I could have moved up to C at the expo based on a 10k time, but I knew I couldn't keep C pace for a half. (The meds I've been on since Thanksgiving hit my endurance hard, and I'm still building it back up. ) I was keeping pace with the D folks just fine and not encountering any real issues with race etiquette until I had to slow down.

 

[Mamasmurf227]

I don't see how stopping for pictures affects the congestion on the course? If you're starting in B, planning on stopping for photos, you'd still be running the pace you had in your fast 10k, no? If anything I think the opposite would be true - you start in a later corral because you anticipate your total time will be ~3.5 hrs, but your actual RUN time is much faster. You'd be stuck running at a fast pace w/in people whose run time fits into 3.5 hrs, if that makes sense?

For PHM, there were just too many people. Period. But, the reason stopping for pictures makes it worse is:

Say you start it C. Without picture stops, you would expect to clear each mile marker before some who started in Coral F. However, if you stop for pictures and the person in Coral F doesn't... suddenly you are running with that person in Coral F because they have caught up to you. Magnify that by 2000 and you've got a problem. (Especially since many people in the later corals don't tend to stop as often because they know they don't have as much of a cushion as the earlier corals do)

I started in C and did stop for a few pictures and ended up finished the race about 45 minutes slower than I intended even though my running pace (when I was able to find space to run) was normal. When the course got really crowded, I noticed that there were a ton of runners from D, E and F along with me. At that point, it was very difficult be be able to run at a faster pace to get ahead of them.

Because of all the picture stops (and yes, incorrect coral placement, injury, heat, etc) the corals did not stay spread out throughout the course. In my opinion, the middle corals all seemed to merge into one big mass of people. Now, given the fact the Disney intentionally puts those picture stop there, they should anticipate this and have a course wide enough to accommodate the crowd. Just my two cents.

 

[MrsBeal]

This would be a great idea. Especially for someone like me who is new to running a marathon or half mary. I don't know any of the etiquette that more experienced runners may be familiar with .For example signaling when you are about to stop or change from running to walking. Now I do have enough sense not to come to a dead stop in front of someone but I knew nothing about a signal.

I think the video idea on the big screens prior to race start would be a fab idea. Last fall (haven't done any 2013 events yet) they had the characters in cheesy promo clips. No reason why they couldn't do something similar.

I can just see Donald breaking all the "rules". Zigging across the entire width of the course without looking to get a photo with a princess. Coming to a dead halt for a water stop, drinking his water and then starting again. Walking side by side with Daisy, Huey, Dewey, & Louie. Changing pace walk/run or run/walk without signaling. Tossing his 'throw away--stay warm' outer layers in the middle of the course.

While it would be cute, it would also be informative. If it was shown to a new runner at their first race, they might not have even thought or realized any of those things.

I think having decent race etiquette should be more analogous to saying Please and Thank You. It is a learned behavior that is not required, but polite, responsible and respectful. With a little bit of practice and implementation it is second nature.

 

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

For PHM, there were just too many people. Period. But, the reason stopping for pictures makes it worse is:

Say you start it C. Without picture stops, you would expect to clear each mile marker before some who started in Coral F. However, if you stop for pictures and the person in Coral F doesn't... suddenly you are running with that person in Coral F because they have caught up to you. Magnify that by 2000 and you've got a problem. (Especially since many people in the later corals don't tend to stop as often because they know they don't have as much of a cushion as the earlier corals do)

I started in C and did stop for a few pictures and ended up finished the race about 45 minutes slower than I intended even though my running pace (when I was able to find space to run) was normal. When the course got really crowded, I noticed that there were a ton of runners from D, E and F along with me. At that point, it was very difficult be be able to run at a faster pace to get ahead of them.

Because of all the picture stops (and yes, incorrect coral placement, injury, heat, etc) the corals did not stay spread out throughout the course. In my opinion, the middle corals all seemed to merge into one big mass of people. Now, given the fact the Disney intentionally puts those picture stop there, they should anticipate this and have a course wide enough to accommodate the crowd. Just my two cents.

So true. Disney races are unlike any others out there with those photo opportunities. You stop for pictures and/or Bathroom Breaks and you have moved yourself further back which you expect, but the runner dynamic suddenly changes. The rules can't apply the same way at Disney. Other races may have a lot more runners with less of the crowding problems, but the course at Disney is like rush hour traffic. They can add more lanes, separate it out further, but the congestion will still be there, just delayed. Someone is going to be stuck in the worst of it no matter what.

More reason to follow the tips from Coach about balancing your fluids to alleviate bathroom breaks. Character Pictures are one thing, but add in a bathroom break, and in the time it takes to wait, you move back a lot. Maybe it would make more sense to just add more character opportunities...because that takes a lot of people off the course continuously? The only solution to all of this appears to reduce the amount of participants.

 

[Phdmama06]

Calling people's attention to etiquette and safety is never a bad thing, although Run Disney always has a blurb on that in the race instructions. How many actually read it, who knows. I think a video would be a neat idea, kind of like the presentation at the beginning of an airline flight, although in a more fun form. Yet that still relies on people getting to the corrals on time, often a problem at recent run Disney races, and paying attention. Even with all of that, I don't know how many will really abide by the guidelines. Those who tend to follow them already do, in most cases, except for made newer participants who aren't familiar with racing etiquette. And of many of those who don't, they may likely continue not to, even with knowledge.

And with the degree of crowding at these events lately, I'm inclined to think that some of the rules are logistically, physically near impossible to follow due to the sheer number of people around you at any given time. Sometimes people just get boxed into the crowds and if they need to slow down, it's hard to get in the so called right place to do so.

 

[John VN]

I seem to recall that there is a mention of race etiquette by Jeff Galloway in his video on the Disney site. He mentions about moving to the side and raising hand when coming off the run for the walk portion.