Questions about resale points

[dbarndt]

I have been lurking a while as we consider our first DVC purchase. We are strongly considering going with a resale purchase in BLT. I have spent a bunch of time on here and other sites to get some ideas about purchasing the pros/cons of purchasing direct vs resale. There are some great people on here and I would appreciate your insight.

I understand the "limited use" of resale points. There seems to be many conspiracy theories about future limitations of resale points. I understand that Disney can do whatever they want but does anyone REALLY think that they would impose retroactive limitation on contracts purchased on the resale market?

 

[dbarndt]

To be clear in the post above, it seems Disney's last change to resale points grandfathered in those who purchased prior. Is there any history to suggest they may make changes RETROACTIVELY to those who purchased in the resale market.

 

[hakepb]

The change you reference is Disney's 1 and only resale change.

But Disney has made some changes that negatively impacted many owners, so make sure you understand what you are buying (a partial ownership of a room)

Ie point reallocations negatively impacted owners that stayed M-Th
Perks come and go..

If you are happy booking BLT at your home resort window (currently 11 mo out) then I don't think they can take that away.

 

[bobbiwoz]

No one knows what is planned. It has been mentioned giving a better time to book other than home resorts would be a possibility. So direct can book at 7 months, resale points at ______ months. Others have said this would be very hard to administer.

Disney does not have to grandfather any points.

I still have decided to buy BLT resale, I hope it's not taken by Disney. As of now, all I really want to do is stay at DVC resorts. If we ever decide to cruise on DVC points (we have in the past and found it worthwhile because of banked points from a resale, wouldn't be possible now) we have enough directly bought or grandfathered (as of now) to use them.

Bobbi

 

[chalee94]

To be clear in the post above, it seems Disney's last change to resale points grandfathered in those who purchased prior. Is there any history to suggest they may make changes RETROACTIVELY to those who purchased in the resale market.

i agree with the prior poster: there is not really any history either way.

there used to be a "free valet parking" perk for DVC owners. some owners valet parked their cars one night and woke up to find the perk had disappeared. a few years back, some members tried to book a disney cruise on pts only to find that trading for cruises had been suspended for the rest of that year. perks can come and go for both direct and resale purchasers. always remember that it's disney's world and you're just lucky to live in it...

i think resale is the only way to go. and buy just what you need to stay at the DVC resorts themselves. the perks you get from buying direct (true of virtually all timeshares) are just not worth very much...

 

[hakepb]

No one knows what is planned. It has been mentioned giving a better time to book other than home resorts would be a possibility. So direct can book at 7 months, resale points at ______ months. Others have said this would be very hard to administer.

Disney does not have to grandfather any points.

I still have decided to buy BLT resale, I hope it's not taken by Disney. As of now, all I really want to do is stay at DVC resorts. If we ever decide to cruise on DVC points (we have in the past and found it worthwhile because of banked points from a resale, wouldn't be possible now) we have enough directly bought or grandfathered (as of now) to use them.

Bobbi

I think the rules state you have a 2 month (or something much shorter thab they currently allow) window for home resort only booking.

They might be able to say direct owners can book other resorts at 9 mo and resale at 7. I would think they would have to limit the direct window to a certain % of points...but that's not hard. In the current systems, Disney allows x% AP discounts, y% Free Dining, ....

 

[disneynutz]

It's unknown what Disney will do, most of us never thought that they would restrict resales or make the other changes that they have made.

IMO Disney is having internal problems that we are not aware of. Disney has had three Presidents/Vice Presidents in charge of DVD/DVC during the last two years. Aulani opened with legal issues, BLT had design and quality issues and and a 12% plus increase in dues during the last two years.

Who knows what they will do next.

Bill

 

[hakepb]

It's unknown what Disney will do, most of us never thought that they would restrict resales or make the other changes that they have made.

IMO Disney is having internal problems that we are not aware of. Disney has had three Presidents/Vice Presidents in charge of DVD/DVC during the last two years. Aulani opened with legal issues, BLT had design and quality issues and and a 12% plus increase in dues during the last two years.

Who knows what they will do next.

Bill

...but all of those issues were arguably caused by that 1st of the 3 Presidents/Vice Presidents. (While BLT dues increased under Claire, it was under Jim that started BLT sales with developer-supported artificially low dues.)

 

[disneynutz]

...but all of those issues were arguably caused by that 1st of the 3 Presidents/Vice Presidents. (While BLT dues increased under Claire, it was under Jim that started BLT sales with developer-supported artificially low dues.)

True but Claire came on board and was moved to Paris in only a year and a half, why? She also hired an executive to run DVC that we have never heard from.

Potrock has replaced her but we haven't really heard anything from him except that he is proud to have worked on the Disney Springs planning. In addition to running DVD/DVC he has Adventures By Disney, how is that going to improve things at the DVC?

VGF moving so slowly, DVD pushing the older "classic" resorts and wait lists for those resorts while increasing prices.

The whole thing just doesn't feel right to me.

Bill

 

[Novakm]

I don't know, but I can't imagine any restrictions on resale that don't reduce the value for direct purchasers. Direct purchasers already lose 50% when they sign on the bottom line. Any restrictions on resale would make that worse. Would anyone pay $160 a point if resale was available for $20?

So I have two questions.

1 What would be such a great perk that new purchasers would be thrilled to give up resale value?
Or
2 How would DVC benefit from having to manage a tiered system? Killing resale values would not help them, since thier business is selling new at huge profits, not reselling old at much smaller margins. Lower resale values would increase forclosures and delinquencies on MF. DVC would end up with lots of inventory they do not need. Worst case the resales go to people who cannot afford to go to the parks, and you end up with a rich/poor dynamic. In this case, the people with money go elsewhere, killing direct sales.

I don't think having a caste system would benefit anyone. For DVC to prosper, they need to keep all values up. Part of the reason Japanese cars sell so well is the resale value. It's no different for DVC.

 

[chalee94]

Direct purchasers already lose 50% when they sign on the bottom line. Any restrictions on resale would make that worse. Would anyone pay $160 a point if resale was available for $20?

yep - many timeshares that sell on ebay for $1 are still sold to people willing to pony up tens of thousands based on nothing but happy vacation feelings. there are lots of people out there who never ask questions like "what would this be worth if i needed to sell next year?" or "how many pts would it actually cost to trade out for a hotel room at the polynesian?" they look at the shiny pictures of faraway places and assume disney will take care of them after they sign on the dotted line. who would you rather buy from? mickey or some complete stranger? ("resale" sounds downright suspicious - sending money to someone you've only talked with on the internet?)

 

[hakepb]

True but Claire came on board and was moved to Paris in only a year and a half, why? She also hired an executive to run DVC that we have never heard from.

Potrock has replaced her but we haven't really heard anything from him except that he is proud to have worked on the Disney Springs planning. In addition to running DVD/DVC he has Adventures By Disney, how is that going to improve things at the DVC?

VGF moving so slowly, DVD pushing the older "classic" resorts and wait lists for those resorts while increasing prices.

The whole thing just doesn't feel right to me.

Bill

I think they found the problem with Jim, and quickly replaced him with a good executive , Claire (who was never intended to run DVC) And then Disney took the time to find the long term replacement.

Now, if there is another quick change in DVC, I'm wrong. Although it doesn't sound like DVC is the only troubled group in the World right now.

 

[dbarndt]

Thanks for all the interesting replies. I think the last few posts hit the nail on the head for me in looking from the outside. If a decision like killing resale points undervalues the existing members (which it would because the asset would decrease in value and likely be far less "liquid") that is just bad business. I see that it can/might happen but I am feeling a little more confident that my resale route is the correct one.

As an interesting note, it seem that Disney is able to book revenues from DVC as "Theme Park Revenue". This is a huge perk in publicly traded company. You have guests buying a share of an asset (DVC) and can book it as revenue from the parks. No wonder they want to push direct sales. None the less if anyone does any research and sees that the points on the resale market are worthless (speculating this would be the case if they made a major change) that would certainly hurt sales.

Now I am getting into the "conspiracy" theories and I haven't even bought yet. OH NO.

I am thinking of making an offer on 250 points at BLT this week.

 

[hakepb]

I don't know, but I can't imagine any restrictions on resale that don't reduce the value for direct purchasers. Direct purchasers already lose 50% when they sign on the bottom line. Any restrictions on resale would make that worse. Would anyone pay $160 a point if resale was available for $20?

So I have two questions.

1 What would be such a great perk that new purchasers would be thrilled to give up resale value?
Or
2 How would DVC benefit from having to manage a tiered system? Killing resale values would not help them, since thier business is selling new at huge profits, not reselling old at much smaller margins. Lower resale values would increase forclosures and delinquencies on MF. DVC would end up with lots of inventory they do not need. Worst case the resales go to people who cannot afford to go to the parks, and you end up with a rich/poor dynamic. In this case, the people with money go elsewhere, killing direct sales.

I don't think having a caste system would benefit anyone. For DVC to prosper, they need to keep all values up. Part of the reason Japanese cars sell so well is the resale value. It's no different for DVC.

Low resale values help owners. SSR had a lower dues increase this year because property taxes went down because of the lower resale prices.

In most timeshare systems, the direct/resale differences are usually things like reduced fees (to trade out), priority wait list, advanced trading. Nothing that really prevents your internal use, just a few "nice" that are not usually worth the cost.

I don't religiously follow ROFR, but it seems that DVC is ok with 50% of retail resales and decided to not let it keep free falling.

 

[jcotten]

Thanks for all the interesting replies. I think the last few posts hit the nail on the head for me in looking from the outside. If a decision like killing resale points undervalues the existing members (which it would because the asset would decrease in value and likely be far less "liquid") that is just bad business. I see that it can/might happen but I am feeling a little more confident that my resale route is the correct one.

As an interesting note, it seem that Disney is able to book revenues from DVC as "Theme Park Revenue". This is a huge perk in publicly traded company. You have guests buying a share of an asset (DVC) and can book it as revenue from the parks. No wonder they want to push direct sales. None the less if anyone does any research and sees that the points on the resale market are worthless (speculating this would be the case if they made a major change) that would certainly hurt sales.

Now I am getting into the "conspiracy" theories and I haven't even bought yet. OH NO.

I am thinking of making an offer on 250 points at BLT this week.

Good luck! We are closing on Our BLT this week, we decided to go resale to get more points for the money , I don't think Disney will restrict resale contracts to their home resort , but we bought where we wanted to stay, just in case

 

[Sammie]

True but Claire came on board and was moved to Paris in only a year and a half, why? She also hired an executive to run DVC that we have never heard from.

Potrock has replaced her but we haven't really heard anything from him except that he is proud to have worked on the Disney Springs planning. In addition to running DVD/DVC he has Adventures By Disney, how is that going to improve things at the DVC?

VGF moving so slowly, DVD pushing the older "classic" resorts and wait lists for those resorts while increasing prices.

The whole thing just doesn't feel right to me.

Bill

You seriously do not think Claire hired Ken do you? Because if you do that is very wrong information.

Many of upper management have dual jobs.

As to Claire leaving I really think that was more her wanting to go to Paris over DVC wanting to change.

As to the question of restrictions on resale points, would not surprise me in the least. DVD/DVC has to do everything they can to keep the direct sale market where they want and need it to be. If resales is hurting that, they will find ways to fix it.