question about a child's intelligence

[bookgirl]

Is it possible for a kid who scores off the chart on standardized tests and gets all A+ in school at a second grade level, to not score high on an IQ test??

I ask because the school called us and would like to test our DD for the gifted program. They said they look at grades first and then recommendation for the teacher. Bottom line is you dont get in unless you have a high IQ.

We never asked for them to test her or to see if she could be tested, so this kind of all jumped at us this week.

Standardized tests and school grades are just based off of what you learned and how redily you can regurgitate it on command. IQ tests are more abstract. Some of it will be easier if you have some basic education but some of it is stuff that can't be taught from a book, so it is possible to do really well on grades and tests, but to have an average or even lower IQ. It is also possible to have a high IQ and do lousy on tests and grades.

 

[Aristomommy]

There is a big difference btw. IQ and achievement. Kids with high IQ are not necessarily straight A students and straight A students don't necessarily have high IQs. High IQ does sometimes indicate that a child is ready to learn at an accelerated pace, but kids with exceptional IQs may also learn very differently than typically developing peers.

Our school system requires a high achievement and high IQ score to participate in accelerated program. DD is currently +2 years in math and language arts and it is the ideal situation for her. Other school districts may only look at IQ or some even go by teacher recommendation. Achievement tests are something you can study for, IQ tests is the natural ability to think and reason.

So yes, it is possible to have high achievement and not have high IQ.

 

[C.Ann]

There is a big difference btw. IQ and achievement. Kids with high IQ are not necessarily straight A students and straight A students don't necessarily have high IQs. High IQ does sometimes indicate that a child is ready to learn at an accelerated pace, but kids with exceptional IQs may also learn very differently than typically developing peers.
.

I was about to post something similar.. Children can literally score "off the charts" on an IQ test and still not do well academically - especially if other factors come into play such as ADD, ADHD, etc..

So I would say a high IQ is not necessarily a good indicator of how well a child will perform academically..

 

[Erin1700]

I was about to post something similar.. Children can literally score "off the charts" on an IQ test and still not do well academically - especially if other factors come into play such as ADD, ADHD, etc..

So I would say a high IQ is not necessarily a good indicator of how well a child will perform academically..

And that is why I have issues, I guess. Test her, that is fine, but why should she miss out on getting a better reading program just b/c on the IQ test, she didnt put blocks in the right order.

 

[corndog]

No.

 

[tmarquez]

I was wondering about this gifted stuff too.

We got a note from school saying they were going to test DD for gifted. She is in K. We didn't have to sign anything or approve. So I asked her about it and she said she was already pulled out of class and took a test with the guidance counselor (one other child was too). She said it was easy and was basically a bunch of matching the relationships of things. Is that an IQ test?

So I happened to run into another K teacher outside of school and asked her about it. She said the kids don't even know they are being tested, they make it like a game. Well...apparently not!

I never heard anything else...so maybe she "failed". But what do they do with "gifted" kindergartners or 1st graders that's different from the rest of the kids? We are in Florida...I'm sure that makes a difference.

Not sure I like that they do this without permission.

 

[MariDisney]

Putting a small damper on this. Please don't toss around IQ numbers, either as results or requirements.

Mensa, the High IQ Society, accepts people in the top 2% of the general population. They will accept a large number of standardized tests. However, although an IQ Test must have a mean of 100, varying tests have different standard deviations. I have seen the requirements based on different tests, and the requirement can be as low as 120 or as high as 148, depending on both the test and edition. So a 130 number will easily qualify on one test but will not qualify on another.

All true. But, in PA the required score on the WISC (which is the one generally given by a school psychologist) to be identified as academically gifted. If they use another test it needs to be 2 standard deviations above the mean on that test. But, in all my years in the field I've rarely seen a school psych give a different test. In PA it actually reads the IQ score AND in need of specially designed instruction.

You can easily access chapter 14 on the PA Dept of Ed website for the details.

 

[MariDisney]

I think that is why I am hesitant to do the testing. I need to find out if this is the only option to getting her advanced reading. She reads at a 6th grade level and I really think she needs something more than what is offered in 3rd grade. BUT I dont think she is "gifted". Although every teacher and even her swim coach has told me how smart she is and that they constantly see her thinking ahead of things.

In PA your best bet is to have her tested and then have a GIEP (gifted individual education plan). In that document you can have listed that she be in a particular grade level curriculum, etc. Without this document it can be difficult, though not impossible, to have her instructed differentially.

For the record, the practice of having a "gifted program" as the only means of delivering instruction to gifted students is illegal. You can have gifted child who does not get pulled into the program but does have classroom changes made (curriculum, etc.). Becuase of the laws surrounding the GIEP each child must have instruction/assessment, etc. tailored to their needs. Most schools don't openly tell you this, but it's fact.

 

[Pigeon]

I don't think there's any harm in investigating exactly what the gifted program entails in your district and getting her tested. You can then take it from there.

My dd is in our gifted program. The program is one of the best things about the school. It is education the way education ought to be. The only bad thing I can say about it is that more kids ought to be educated that way. It is not just additional assignments, more worksheets and yet more testing. If it were that, we'd have opted out.

Any single test score should be taken with a grain of salt. Kids can do wildly differently, depending on their mood, their health, the phase of the moon. I'm looking at two standarized math assessment tests done for my older daughter this year. On one, she's in the 96th percentile nationwide. On the second, she's in the 56th percentile nationwide. Same kid, similar types of tests, with the tests taken within two months of each other.

And I agree with a pp that kids with exceptionally high IQs may not do well in school. I have a nephew in that situation. The school told my sister that they've never seen a kid with an IQ nearly as high as his. He's taught himself three languages and was doing calculus at age 9. He pulls C's. He's bored most of the time, and being so smart has made him lazy as far as school goes. The school pays little attention to him because he's not the type of kid they worry about.

 

[golfgal]

To answer your IQ question. My 11 yr old DS scores higher than my 13 yr old DD but she consistently gets better grades and we rarely have any issues with her getting her work in on time, goofing off in class, etc. DS is a whole other ball game. He only applies himself when he is in the mood, would rather go out to play than do homework, will lie or "forget" he has homework. Headache! Which is why he is on lockdown and not allowed to play school or rec team sports until after 1st semester wraps up this coming year and he must maintain a B average or its a big NO on the sports!

IQ is only one of the tools used in education to measure "intelligence". Personally, I think a kid can be really book smart and just plain dumb dealing with life, if you get my meaning. The focus should be more on raising/teaching well rounded individuals and less about pushing those high test scores.

Sounds like our house. We had DS16 tested for learning disabilities because his grades were so poor and how smart he appeared. No learning disabilities but an IQ of 165, but he didn't get into the gifted programs because of his grades and lack of effort in school.

I think that is why I am hesitant to do the testing. I need to find out if this is the only option to getting her advanced reading. She reads at a 6th grade level and I really think she needs something more than what is offered in 3rd grade. BUT I dont think she is "gifted". Although every teacher and even her swim coach has told me how smart she is and that they constantly see her thinking ahead of things.

There is a HUGE difference between being smart and being gifted and most people and schools use them in the same vein. Many of the kids in the gifted programs are smart and good students but they are no where near "gifted" in the true sense of the word. Our school does a good job differentiating the two. DS14 is a VERY good student, scores VERY high (like 99% on standardized tests) but did not get into the gifted program because he doesn't think like a gifted kid. DS16 on the other had probable IS gifted in the sense that he thinks outside of the box but see my post above as to why he isn't there.

Also, for a bright kid, reading at 6th grade level in 3rd grade isn't uncommon at all. When we had DS16 tested in 4th grade he tested out reading at the college level--the kid that NEVER opened a book, never read anything but the cereal box--including his homework --see my post above .

 

[Aristomommy]

I was wondering about this gifted stuff too.

We got a note from school saying they were going to test DD for gifted. She is in K. We didn't have to sign anything or approve. So I asked her about it and she said she was already pulled out of class and took a test with the guidance counselor (one other child was too). She said it was easy and was basically a bunch of matching the relationships of things. Is that an IQ test?

So I happened to run into another K teacher outside of school and asked her about it. She said the kids don't even know they are being tested, they make it like a game. Well...apparently not!

I never heard anything else...so maybe she "failed". But what do they do with "gifted" kindergartners or 1st graders that's different from the rest of the kids? We are in Florida...I'm sure that makes a difference.

Not sure I like that they do this without permission.

Most schools will do a group test or a quick screening test for their gifted programs. In order to find a child's IQ, they would be tested individually by a psychologist. While it's true that testing badly can be a fluke, it is a rare fluke to score highly gifted in an IQ test (140+).

Each school in our area handles "gifted" programming differently. Our old school district had a pull out program and for 2 hours every week DD had a math and language art enrichment. While she liked the special program, I didn't think only gifted identified kids should have fun doing puzzles or learning about prehistoric animals. When DD returned to regular math she was even more frustrated by the slow pace so it wasn't a good fit.

New school has an accelerated curriculum. They have a gifted classroom and all kids are with age mates but work at a faster pace. Some are +1 year ahead and some are +2 years ahead. It is good environment, no teasing and the kids are motivated to keep learning.

Before deciding if you should pursue more testing etc. find out what the program is about. Some are high pressure environments, others are just fluff and then there are schools who really invest time and money into the programs.

Sorry this is long but we have struggled with the issue ourselves with our oldest.

 

[SandrA9810]

Colleges do look at high school courses. gifted classes aren't going to get your child far. It's going to be the AP classes that matter. Those are the ones that count towards college credits.
Kari took several AP classes and even tested out of classes... which means she took the final exam, passed with flying colors and so she got a college credit for the class without even taking it. She really is book smart, can pass just about anything, an expert at passing those stupid questionaire things on job apps. But don't ask her for something that requires common sense like folding a t-shirt, that's way too complicated for her.

 

[liamandcaili]

I think that is why I am hesitant to do the testing. I need to find out if this is the only option to getting her advanced reading. She reads at a 6th grade level and I really think she needs something more than what is offered in 3rd grade. BUT I dont think she is "gifted".

This is how my daughter is. She will be in 2nd grade next year, and she has already read most of the books that are on my soon-to-be-5th-grade son's summer reading list. However, I don't think she is gifted. Bright, yes. Our school system is a little different because we don't have a gifted program. The classes do differentiated instruction, which allows the teachers to give more challenging material to kids who can handle it. The reading material is almost the same, but the more advanced kids are asked to write about the reading or answer more complex, open-ended questions. Maybe you could ask her teacher for assignments or projects like that if you don't want or get the gifted route. As for my daughter's reading, I just give her more advanced material to read at home.

So I happened to run into another K teacher outside of school and asked her about it. She said the kids don't even know they are being tested, they make it like a game. Well...apparently not!

I know here they do so many evaluations in kindergarten, it is very possible your daughter could be tested without her knowing what the test was. For all I know, my kids took IQ tests in K. Like I said above, we don't really have a gifted program here, although there is an optional more challenging math and reading program for students beginning in fourth grade. I've never heard of a gifted program beginning so young, but there is probably someone out there who has.

 

[Beca]

In PA your best bet is to have her tested and then have a GIEP (gifted individual education plan). In that document you can have listed that she be in a particular grade level curriculum, etc. Without this document it can be difficult, though not impossible, to have her instructed differentially.

For the record, the practice of having a "gifted program" as the only means of delivering instruction to gifted students is illegal. You can have gifted child who does not get pulled into the program but does have classroom changes made (curriculum, etc.). Becuase of the laws surrounding the GIEP each child must have instruction/assessment, etc. tailored to their needs. Most schools don't openly tell you this, but it's fact.

Wow!! I really wish we had a GIEP option in Texas!! You are very lucky to have such a document/plan!! In our school district, all children are instructed to the same level, unless they qualify for special education. They do have a LEAP program, but it is "extra work" assigned on a weekly basis. It is so substandard to what is truly needed. We had our dd tested by a psychologist who works with gifted children, and found out she is a 3rd standard deviation kid (top 0.1% of IQ's, no learning disabilities). We begged our school district to provide an IEP for her, as the recommendation for these children is to skip at least 3 grades by the time they enter first grade, or risk losing them academically (in school) to boredom (which is something we were facing at the time). After many consultations, our local school district would do NOTHING out of the ordinary for her. Our solution was to homeschool her, and put her in homeschool co-op classes with older students (we hoped to make her struggle a bit to keep up). That has worked well, and we are blessed to be able to do this, but I get annoyed whenever I get my school tax bill ($7,500 per year), and know that they would do nothing to help my dd. Texas really needs to learn from PA!!!!

 

[SandrA9810]

here's an interesting story...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=7808139&page=1

 

[bumbershoot]

I don't know what kind of test they did for me and my brother for the gifted program in elementary school, but I know my mom said it changed. When I took it, it was one kind of test, and 3 years later it was different, it was cartoon character based? A lot of it had to do with knowing who the characters was...my brother didn't get into the program b/c he didn't do well on the test, because we only watched PBS and it was all network show cartoons on the test. WEIRD.

I was always a B student...some As, the occasional C, we're not going ot talk about my first time through Linear Algebra and Organic Chemistry (second time through Organic though I got A+)...but I was put into the gifted program until I hit my preteens, discovered that boys didn't like girls who knew the answers, and dumbed myself down until halfway through HS.

My brother, however, got As forever, except one B in Shop class when his friend sat on his final project before it was graded. Took a gazillion AP classes, went to Duke (could have gone to a FL school starting as almost a junior b/c of the AP credits), did their EE program, etc etc...brilliant brilliant man, all his life.

But b/c the test to get into the gifted program was based on cartoon characters from shows my mom didn't let us watch, he wasn't in that program.


So I dont 'know if an IQ test can be flawed in that way...but gifted tests can...

 

[Iott Family]

I disagree. My dd is in middle school, in all vector classes, and does have 2 - 3 hours of homework a night, plus many projects. It's the last day of school, and she got straight A's, and still has a social life. If she got a B, she'd be kicked out of the vector class - not the end of the world. However, she worked her butt off to be on high honor roll all year. She's learning skills that will help her in HS, when the grades actually count, since colleges aren't going to see her middle school transcript.

So, you dont think kids who are placed in general courses during middle school are being prepared to handle high school courses? Im confused with what you are trying to make a point of?

 

[ReneeA]

I'm sure that it's possible to score lower on the IQ test and be very gifted academically.

We have the opposite problem...a kid that scores extremely high on the IQ tests and does poorly in school. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Andrea from PA]

OP - I sent you a pm

MariDisney is spot on -- PA is a very unique state for the gifted laws.

I encourage you to have her tested because the GIEP can be a lifesaver.

I also encourage anyone who wants to learn more about gifted education to check out hoagiesgifted.org

 

[ElizK]

The G/T (gifted and talented) program in our district doesn't look for just intelligence. They are most interested in the highly creative thinkers.