Punishment too harsh? UPDATE #81

[poohandwendy]

I have to agree with the posters here that the school needs to become involved. Right now, he is slipping through the cracks.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

This has gone beyond laziness, this is just plain not caring at all. He isn't just blowing it in a few classes, he is completely blowing it off. I don't disagree with your punishments at all, but I would take it a step further.

I would ask for a conference with all of his teachers, asap. I would not only discuss his work, but also what they think is going on with him. What are their individual opinions of the company he keeps (his friends)? How is he behaving in the classroom?

Teachers are a valuable resource, take advantage of it. They see him for more hours in the day than you do. And they have seen this same thing time and time again with many, many students. Ask them for advice. Ask each one of them, that way you will be sure to be getting the whole picture and not just one teachers possibly biased opinion. They are not going to take the time to 'save' him from himself unless you go in there and let them know that his parent/s are NOT going to allow this to continue and want nothing more than to get to the bottom of the problem.

You also really must consider possible drug and/or alcohol involvement. I am NOT saying that is going on with him, but one of the first signs of substance abuse is not giving a crap about your life. Mention this to the teachers also, ask them if they have heard anything in that respect. You may be surprised, they usually know what kids are doing really bad stuff and which kids aren't. (just an idea)

He needs desperately to be involved in something that will give him focus and purpose. If not a sport, then some other activity that makes him feel accountable and a part of a group. I would look into school or community activities. Get him busy. There is nothing more dangerous than boredom and lack of purpose when it comes to teens.

I am not trying to be alarmist, but I really feel this is serious. I wish you luck, it is sooooo not easy to raise teens. Makes you think the potty training/ temper tantrum etc issues were cake, huh?

 

[VSL]

Mmmm, enjoying this thread.. maybe I can give you another viewpoint - the viewpoint of the child?

I'm currently in Uni (I'm 21, so probably quite a bit older than any children being discussed here, but still..), and in my final year of a course that I really have zero interest in. I'm doing Egyptology and Ancient History, and it was kind of interesting at first, but I'm far more interested in athletics at the moment, and have lost all interest in my degree. At this point, I'll be happy to get a 2.2. Seriously - this is how bad it has gotten.

And that 2.2 won't be for me. It will be for my parents - who, for some reason, are under the impression that I can still get a 1st class honours! I cannot begin to describe the amount of stress I feel I am under at the moment. And I'm actually quite a bright student - but I'm just not interested, and trying to write essays and do exams and get good grades in things which you have no interest in is very very difficult. I'm not being lazy, I just do not have the mental focus to do something that I can't even pretend to make 'fun' for myself.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe your son isn't as lazy as so many people are making out. Maybe he is genuinely struggling with finding any interest in his school work.
I agree with the others who have said that there is something deeper than laziness going on here.

 

[mickeyfan2]

He tried drums and was in band in 4th and 5th grade. The band teachers gave the "good" parts to one particular drummer all the time. He got discouraged and quit.

This concerns me. It seems he either wants to be best or quits. So if he can't get an A, then why try? This might be a sign of depression and not just being lazy. Please call the school counselor and have him/her talk to your son. There might be an underlying problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Marseeya]

I'm in a similar position with my own DS, so I hardly feel qualified to give advice, but I say stick to your guns.

However, I do agree with everything PoohandWendy said. I do have some questions, too.

How did your DS do in school up until this point? Did he have more help from the school in keeping organized? Just because a kid is bright doesn't mean he might not need help. Are you monitoring his IM logs and keeping an eye on things? You might gain some real insight by doing that.

 

[sweet angel]

Okay, I need to try to address some points quickly before getting ready for work.

1. He is a freshman in high school -- not still in Jr. High.

2. This has been an on-going problem where (in past years) we've tried: assignment reports, progress reports, emails from teachers, etc. Nothing has changed long term.

3. He is not dumb.

4. He does not have a learning diasability (yes, he's been tested). IF he is interested in something he throws himself in wholeheartedly.

5. He is not depressed (has been in counselling in the past for other issues).

6. His father (my ex-H) dropped out of school as soon as he was able to for the same reasons. Regretted it almost immediately and went to night school to get his diploma (not GED, regular high school diploma). HE cannot get through to DS the importance of school.

7. Drugs and/or alchohol are 100% not involved.

8. I never said I work, so I can't get involved. I've been involved every year -- met every single guidance counselor, vice principal, child study team, principal up to this year. It hasn't made a damn bit of difference.

9. He has started playing guitar and really likes it. That is what he is involved in.

HE DOES NOT REALLY THINK THEY WILL FAIL HIM/KEEP HIM BACK.

HE DOES NOT TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS ACTIONS. THAT IS WHY THIS MAY BE THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK.

Honestly, I've given him the tools (organization, quiet place) to succeed, but I can't FORCE him to use them. When he goes off to work, am I supposed to intervene with his boss when he screws up?

When he goes to take his driver's test (which, by the way, I'm also making him get a job to pay for driver's ed), if he fails, should I meet with the instructor to find out how we can help him get his license?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for the parents stepping in, but there's got to be a point when the CHILD becomes responsible.

 

[chris1gill]

My DD is in the same boat in the same grade..She is brining me home a piece of paper every wek with a note from each teacher,telling me how she is doing. If she does well she has all privelages that week,if not,they are all gone..She is doing dramatically better 3 weeks into the new quarter

Jenny, I just wanted to say that I really like this approach... My DS is in fifth grade and he is also quite lazy... I DO sit on him regarding his homework and assignments, but it's a job alright... I wouldn't doubt if I needed to use your approach sometime down the road....

OP, I mean absolutely no disrespect at all, but... In most of your posts I have noticed that you've given excuse after excuse for your son's behavior. Reasons you can't meet with teachers, call teachers weekly... many excuses for many different things. It seems that you have in actuality thrown your hands up, layed down the punishment & washed your hands of it. There are so many working parents out there that do meet and talk with teachers weekly... or parents that bring their kids in for tutoring, or get involved in school activities... they do it every day.... Unless you tune in, you are going to lose your son... he will follow the path of his father and quite school too. You need to be aggressive in your approach to turn your son's behavior around, this isn't just about school. There are other factors here, and you need to work to find out what they are. Anything short of that, and you are short changing your son....

 

[Marseeya]

7. Drugs and/or alchohol are 100% not involved.

Have you had him tested? That's the only way you could be 100% certain.

HE DOES NOT REALLY THINK THEY WILL FAIL HIM/KEEP HIM BACK.

Maybe they really won't. My DS (also a freshman) is doing very poorly this year and he got it in his head that he would just go ahead and fail so he could be held back a year. He figured 1) that he'd get to be with his friends who are all a year younger and 2) that the work would be easier because he'd already been exposed to it. I spoke with his principal about this and the principal told me that they don't hold kids back in high school -- that they have to just re-take the classes that they fail, mostly in summer school. My DS is going to have to go to summer school this year, and guess who's going to pay for it?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for the parents stepping in, but there's got to be a point when the CHILD becomes responsible.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. But at the same time, the kids need our supervision now more than they ever did when they were little. Just because he's a freshman doesn't mean the meetings and phone calls with the school stop. When you've got a kid who has a problem in any area (and your DS's problem is in not doing work), then you've got to step in at all times. I'd really hoped that once my son got to the high school, I'd be able to back off and not be so involved in his schooling, but that hasn't been the case. I've already had at least 5 meetings with teachers and principals at the school, and I'm on the phone with them every week. That's just our lot in life -- we don't have kids who are hard-working A students.

It also seems to me that you're getting awfully defensive. Most of the people in this thread have been in agreement with your form of punishment, and a few have expressed a real concern for your son. You did ask for opinions, so you had to know you'd get them from all different points of view.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

I need to touch on a couple points from your last post.

He sounds VERY much like my son, who is a sophomore who I mentioned in a previous post. Ben is not doing as poorly in school, but did get a D in Algebra2 this last marking period. For that he lost the computer on "homework days" (M-Th).

He too is very smart, has been tested, doesn't have learning issues, but is very disorganized, and therefore doesn't turn homework in, forgets to do assignments, etc. It's very frustrating to deal with.

One difference is that Ben is very good about going in himself to talk to the teachers and his guidance counselor. Our school has the online grades for most of the classes, which helps me keep tabs on grades easier. And when they send out progress reports they have the actual grades, in detail.

The only way that you know for sure that drugs and alcohol are not involved is to have him tested. You can have a pretty good feeling and not have your head in the sand, know what to watch out for, etc, but testing is the only way to know for sure.

As far as him driving--I think that's the LAST thing that he should be concentrating on now. He can't juggle everything else he has to and he's going to add something else to the mix. My son knows that he has to have his grades up to get his permit and that he will not be allowed to get his license until he is on the honor roll so he can get the good student discount. Insurance is too expensive for him not to do everything in his power to keep the cost as low as possible. Period and no exceptions.

I have stated this on other threads before, but my son half the time leaves me shaking my head wondering how he gets by on the half a brain he demonstrates he has and then the other half the time I am in awe of his intelligence. He also does really well when it's something he wants to do, ie computer web design. He loves doing that and is good at it. He is really one of those "marches to the beat of a different drummer" type people and the key is tapping into what he is good at and enjoys. But of course he has to get through the other classes, too.

 

[Lynn CC]

Have you talked with him about some tutoring. He probably won't agree, but maybe he is just not understanding the material presented to him and gets discouraged. I would get him tested at a Sylavan/Huntington or the like and see what they say. Sometimes students are very smart, but just have a different learning style. Some tutoring may give him some confidence.
Also, have you checked out his friends that he's hanging with? How do they do in school. If they aren't doing well, it might be a group attitude type thing, maybe he needs to choose more motivated friends.
Just suggestions, sometimes lack of motivation is may be somthing else.

 

[N.Bailey]

I wish I had lots of wisdom to share with you, but I don't. All I can say is, backing down now would be the most foolish thing you can do, IMO. I would not give in and let him out of the punishment early no matter how hard he started trying. You said he would lose these privileges for the entire 3rd marking period and IMO, any less will bring your authority into question. Now, I don't know if this will produce the desired effect or not, but not standing firm will bring you MANY more problems down the road. Problems that I don't think you'll want to deal with either. He at least needs to know that you mean what you say.

There is a woman on this board who is a teacher and if I'd see her nick, I'd recognize it immediately, but off the top of my head, I can't remember what it is. I've read a lot of excellent advice that she's given through the years here and one thing that really sticks with me is, if you're not getting the results you want, inform your child that you will go to school with them and follow them around the school from class to class. I think all teachers would back you 100% and I can't think of anything more humiliating than that. If it's an option for you, I'd inform my son that if by the 3rd marking period those grades aren't up that that's exactly what you plan on doing. According to this teacher, every parent that has done it (and not many have) all of them have had the results they were looking for. Just say, if you can't tell me when you've got tests, quizzes, homework etc.... You're going to find out for yourself.

I've talked to my kids about this (I'm lucky, even with an IEP student, they're honor roll, but I have to help LOTS) and a few parents have done it at their school too. My kids tell me that EVERY kid is totally humiliated, but it has worked. Then of course they say, you better NEVER do that to us. LOL

Good Luck!

 

[golfgal]

At this point he DOES need tutoring. He's so far behind, he can't possibly catch up and because you are the adult(he's still a child), it's your 'job' to understand that. While he is at home, not allowed to do anything, get him some help. Next time, I'd be a little less harsh with my consequences. A child with no life could become really mentally problematic. I have many really depressed children on my school bus. It really shocks me that their parents do not help them. Perhaps your son's issues are more than laziness. Consult a professional; he might really need more than punishment. It's not normal for a 15 yo to let his life slip like this.

Haven't spent much time around 15 year old boys, have you? This is FAR from unusual for boys this age.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for the parents stepping in, but there's got to be a point when the CHILD becomes responsible.

It is called 18.
At 14 you should know more than them and figure why the heck your kid feels the need to fail or not care.
It is not too late for him. He can turn this around.

If he is so smart...have him take an SAT test. See where he stands.

My 14yodd will be taking the PSAT test in October as a sophmore. All the sophmores will take it. (I love this school.)
She is going to spend her summer volunteering with Dog Rescue and studying for her test. We are going to start looking at colleges. Drive there for the day and poke around.

So when my dd is in Geometry and PreAP Chemistry she will know why she is working hard. Got to keep their "eye on the prize".

What are your son's plans? Perhaps plan out some things, look at colleges, etc...to get him motivated.
Two sites I frequent are...
http://www.collegeboard.com/splash
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/index.php?

I am preparing my brain for all this stuff and getting familiar with requirements, scores, tests, aid, scholarships, etc..

Maybe you can find a middle ground somewhere with your son???

 

[mickeyfan2]

1. He is a freshman in high school -- not still in Jr. High.

Being in high school makes this a more dire problem.

2. This has been an on-going problem where (in past years) we've tried: assignment reports, progress reports, emails from teachers, etc. Nothing has changed long term.

Talk to the school, teachers etc to try something new.

3. He is not dumb.

Nobody said he was dumb.

4. He does not have a learning diasability (yes, he's been tested). IF he is interested in something he throws himself in wholeheartedly.

I am glad he does not have a learning disability, but he still needs help.

5. He is not depressed (has been in counselling in the past for other issues).

I think he needs to be retested. He may not have been depressed in the past but he may be now. Depression can happen with puberty.

6. His father (my ex-H) dropped out of school as soon as he was able to for the same reasons. Regretted it almost immediately and went to night school to get his diploma (not GED, regular high school diploma). HE cannot get through to DS the importance of school.

Maybe DS thinks he can do what his father did. It worked for him.

7. Drugs and/or alchohol are 100% not involved.

Are you sure. Has he been tested?

8. I never said I work, so I can't get involved. I've been involved every year -- met every single guidance counselor, vice principal, child study team, principal up to this year. It hasn't made a damn bit of difference.

So you have time. Start going with him to class and see how that works. I know somebody from work whose wife did this with their son. He was mortified and after only a week the problem was solved. He knew that the Mom would be with him in class again on his next grade slide. You are running out of time now. He will be dropping out in less than 2 years.

9. He has started playing guitar and really likes it. That is what he is involved in.

This is good, but it should be a reward for doing his job.

HE DOES NOT REALLY THINK THEY WILL FAIL HIM/KEEP HIM BACK.

Do you want to bet!!!!

HE DOES NOT TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS ACTIONS. THAT IS WHY THIS MAY BE THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK.

This is where counseling (again) will reveal the reason why he does not take responsibility

Honestly, I've given him the tools (organization, quiet place) to succeed, but I can't FORCE him to use them. When he goes off to work, am I supposed to intervene with his boss when he screws up?

No because he will be an adult, but it is your responsibility now to teach him to not screw up and that there are consequences for screwing up.

When he goes to take his driver's test (which, by the way, I'm also making him get a job to pay for driver's ed), if he fails, should I meet with the instructor to find out how we can help him get his license?

WHAT. No WAY SHOULD YOU EVEN CONSIDER THIS!!!!! Driving is a priviledge not a right!! Any kid who is failing in school does not need wheels to help him get more distracted.

 

[N.Bailey]

WHAT. No WAY SHOULD YOU EVEN CONSIDER THIS!!!!! Driving is a priviledge not a right!! Any kid who is failing in school does not need wheels to help him get more distracted.

I'd also add that at least in PA, if your grades aren't As and Bs, the insurance is much higher. It too could be incentive IF he's willing to try. I agree however that right now, I wouldn't consider it either.

 

[Serena]

I think you're doing great. You know your son and what's gone on in the past.
I think he's just being a brat and daring you to do anything. I had one, I know. Luckily it was other stuff instead of school.

Stick to your plans. He needs someone to help him learn for every action there is a reaction.
In fact, I'd write it down. What he was supposed to do and didn't. And the results.
Then I'd write down what it will take to reearn privileges. Tape it to his bedroom wall.

Above all, make sure he knows you love him and know he's capable of doing better.

 

[Nana Annie]

I forgot to add to my post that I agree with the punishment. He knew the consequences and chose not to do the work. Your son seems to need a severe wake-up call.

However, you also have to balance that with setting up a plan for him. As others mentioned before, it is critical to get the school involved. Yet you seem to be very adverse to this suggestion that many, many on this thread have suggested.

Failing that many classes, your son is probably eligible for services. Suggestions would be to set up an ILP or behavior protocol. It is much harder to answer to the school than to Mom. A written contract, being monitored by the school, is easier to enforce - the school becomes the bad guy, not a power struggle between mother and son. He is now accountable to monitoring at the school and home - no more "forgetting assignments, missed stuff" because you will get an e-mail right away. Let the school tell you when he does enough to earn his privileges back. The more eyes on him, the better.

So, I guess what I am trying to say that the punishment is absolutely correct, IF it is not the easy way out. Somebody here mentioned that you threw down the punishment and then washed your hands of it. You need to get involved and you need to get the school involved. Believe me, from experience, getting the school involved and aware of your son's situation actually makes the load less. Yes, it is a time commitment at first, but when they jump in, you now have many, many shoulders sharing the load, inputting ideas and monitoring the progress of your son. Somebody mentioned the "village" concept. It really works.

Freshman are often overwhelmed at the amount of work, the change of schools, the realization that "this is it." His flunking out is not laziness (well, it is to an extent) but a deeper cry for help. Keep the punishments but get the help he needs.

 

[bekkiz]

I hope this doesn't get lost in the thread, but I have a couple of ideas (some have been hinted at before)

I'm a teacher (6's and 9's) as well as a formerly lazy student. I also have a half-brother (9th grader) who is also in a similar situation to your son.

For my brother, it's actually been quite easy to get him to start to turn around. My younger sister is 21, with no direction in her life, no real prospects, got into college but can't seem to last a full semester in a row with out needing to take time off, and spends much of her time in front of the TV. I simply pointed out this fact to my brother and told him that she too was a lazy, unmotivated student, and the likelyhood of her every amounting to anything was low. He has high hopes of someday going to film school, and I reminded him that ninth grade grades count.

However, if you don't have a total slacker in the family, that might not work. So instead, every weekend, have him spend a few hours working at a food bank, or shelter or something like that. Make him talk to some of the people who require the services. Have him ask them what advice they have for a 14 year old. Give him perspective of why you go to school--yeah, it's dumb and boring and lame, but not working and not having a house or money to buy food is something that is REALLY REALLY hard to change.

 

[rt2dz]

I've skimmed this thread rather than reading it throughly. Here are my thoughts:

You made a punishment. Stand your ground. I think that is the most important thing on parenting, follow through. You can make re-enstatement rules to get out of it.

However, I don't believing in punishing over grades. I don't see what it solves. NOBODY fails or almost fails everything because they are lazy. So frequently the parents don't see the whole pictures with their kids. We see what we think we know of our kids, but kids have a whole identity outside of us (parents) that they don't want us to know. There is some reason your DS is being "lazy". Maybe he is getting bad grades because he is beyond the class. Maybe he finds the work to hard, not dumb but not at that level. Maybe that is just not the way he learns. Maybe there is social issues (depression, anxiety, add/adhd, bullied, whatever) and he is trying to fit in or fall off the radar. You must get down to it, it is your job as the parent.

I do think tutoring is in order. If you don't have the money, check into peer group tutoring--most high schools have that and it is free. Check into other group tutoring programs, they are usually much, much less money than a private tutor. Maybe the school has private tutors that are provided by the district on a sliding scale. Do your homework.

I don't believe in looking over your child's shoulder at that age. It's time to help, but let the child suffer the consequences for bad grades (being held back) or the privilages of good grades. But like I said, you need to find the reason for the grades, the reason for the "laziness".

BTW--here, if a child doesn't have at least a C average and proof of enrollement every year, they can not have a drivers license.

 

[horseshowmom]

NOT too harsh. He knew what he was getting into and now the question will be if you can "pass" his test!

You did what you said you'd do. I'm a firm believer in not threatening - it results in kids who don't really believe you'll follow through, and really isn't fair to them when you finally do (how are they supposed to know which time you actually meant it?).

Now he's hoping to make you miserable (maybe you need to think of some more punishment if the bad attitude continues ).

Good luck!

 

[horseshowmom]

To touch, heck no. 3Ds and 2Fs is horrible. Do you work? Maybe you could start going to class with him (I know somebody who did this) and the kid straighten out in a week.

The teachers would love it (believe me, they'd be on your side)! (I know you really can't since you work, but I bet it would get a lot of kids attention - not just yours. Can't you hear them in the halls, "I've got to get my HW done, what if my mom shows up next!!!"