Prosthesis and DAS

[brentm77]

EDIT: As pointed out below, I made some wrong assumptions about the purpose of DAS. I though one of the purposes was to eliminate the need to go to exits on rides that aren't accessible via the line, but realize now it isn't really for mobility issues, so there is no need to comment on that. But if anyone has tips for making it easier for an amputee at the parks, I am all ears!

My daughter had her leg amputated in December in her battle against bone cancer. To be specific, she had a rotationplasty. She will get her first prosthesis in May.

We had wonderful unplanned visit to WDW a couple of weeks back. DAS worked perfectly and Disney's ability to make ride transfers possible from a wheelchair was exceptional. It was easier than I expected and lifted her spirits so much after an indescribably hard year.

One thing has been bothering me is that when she did her remote interview for DAS, she explained that she currently has to alternate between sitting and standing frequently for medical reasons while she heals and could not sit in the wheelchair for extended periods currently. The interviewer said something along the lines of, "I will give you a pass this time that allows you to wait in virtual lines, since this is new, but going forward you will need to wait in the lines that can accommodate your wheelchair."

Even when she gets her prosthesis, it will be years, and maybe never, before she would feel comfortable standing up most of the day combined with many miles of walking, but she probably won't want to take her wheelchair to every park visit. Or she will want to take it and leave it somewhere for long periods. In other words, DAS would still be extremely beneficial to her since she could sit comfortably somewhere and then only stand for short periods. Will Disney be as strict as the cast member said about giving her the DAS that allows for virtual waits with her disability? It seems like several of our friends have no problem getting the virtual line DAS for children with much milder medical needs than someone trying to use a prosthesis for 12 hours a day and a lot of walking, which is causing some frustration for me when I think of her future trips. Does anyone else have some experience with a prosthesis and Disney's accommodations?

Finally, we frequent both WDW and Disneyland somewhat often. Is the DAS process the same for both parks? We have a trip to Disneyland in May and I am concerned she is going to get push back in her interview. If anyone has any tips on how she should word her request to help make it easier, please let me know.

We genuinely have no plans to abuse DAS and would only use it as needed, but she seems to be the exact type of person the system was made for and the comment threw me off.

 

[Rpo0921]

My daughter had her leg amputated in December in her battle against bone cancer. To be specific, she had a rotationplasty. She will get her first prosthesis in May.

We had wonderful unplanned visit to WDW a couple of weeks back. DAS worked perfectly and Disney's ability to make ride transfers possible from a wheelchair was exceptional. It was easier than I expected and lifted her spirits so much after an indescribably hard year.

One thing has been bothering me is that when she did her remote interview for DAS, she explained that she currently has to alternate between sitting and standing frequently for medical reasons while she heals and could not sit in the wheelchair for extended periods currently. The interviewer said something along the lines of, "I will give you a pass this time that allows you to wait in virtual lines, since this is new, but going forward you will need to wait in the lines that can accommodate your wheelchair."

Even when she gets her prosthesis, it will be years, and maybe never, before she would feel comfortable standing up most of the day combined with many miles of walking, but she probably won't want to take her wheelchair to every park visit. Or she will want to take it and leave it somewhere for long periods. In other words, DAS would still be extremely beneficial to her since she could sit comfortably somewhere and then only stand for short periods. Will Disney be as strict as the cast member said about giving her the DAS that allows for virtual waits with her disability? It seems like several of our friends have no problem getting the virtual line DAS for children with much milder medical needs than someone trying to use a prosthesis for 12 hours a day and a lot of walking, which is causing some frustration for me when I think of her future trips. Does anyone else have some experience with a prosthesis and Disney's accommodations?

Finally, we frequent both WDW and Disneyland somewhat often. Is the DAS process the same for both parks? We have a trip to Disneyland in May and I am concerned she is going to get push back in her interview. If anyone has any tips on how she should word her request to help make it easier, please let me know.

We genuinely have no plans to abuse DAS and would only use it as needed, but she seems to be the exact type of person the system was made for and the comment through me off.

I’m sorry your family has had to deal with the situation and it’s good to here the trip went well for your daughter.


having said that her situation doesn’t seem to be what DAS is for. Her situation while severe is not exaggerated by waiting in a line the way other situations are. Think an autistic child simply being in a line getting over stimulated and having an outburst. While possibly inconvenient your daughter would be able to stand/sit with a mobility device through a normal line from what you’ve described.

 

[brentm77]

I’m sorry your family has had to deal with the situation and it’s good to here the trip went well for your daughter.


having said that her situation doesn’t seem to be what DAS is for. Her situation while severe is not exaggerated by waiting in a line the way other situations are. Think an autistic child simply being in a line getting over stimulated and having an outburst. While possibly inconvenient your daughter would be able to stand/sit with a mobility device through a normal line from what you’ve described.

Thank you. I was just reading about it, and understand it a bit more. She is in a unique situation right now where she has to get up and do leg presses on a small device frequently, which wouldn't be practical if she is standing in lines. But down the road, it sounds like Disney will tell her she has to take her wheelchair if she can't stand all day.

What about the rids that don't have wheelchair access in the regular line? Will she have to to the cast member at the exit every time she wants to ride? In other words, she won't be able to reserve a spot in the app for even those rides?

 

[SteveMouse]

At WDW, most queues are wheelchair accessible, save a couple, such as Jungle Cruise and BTMRR. For these rides, she would go to the ride and get a return time from the cast member working the queue. The return time can vary a bit and usually also considers the availability of ride vehicles that can accommodate a chair (in the case of the Jungle Cruise) and the train cars with wider doors (for BTMM). Disneyland has a couple more rides with this approach since more lines can't accommodate chairs. There is, of course, no requirement (by Disney) that she use a chair.

Honestly, with the amount of bench removal that has occurred, bringing one's own seat may not be such a bad idea.

DAS is needs-based, not diagnosis based. It is not usually issued for stamina/fatigue issues. Usually, a CM would suggest the visitor bring/rent a wheelchair or ecv if mobility/fatigue are the issues the guest faces.

Like any guest, if she wants to purchase Genie+ or ILL, those are available to her.

The ADA requires that an accommodation be provided that addresses the individual's needs, not that the/an accommodation preferred by the individual be provided. I'm not trying to be harsh. That's just what's required. Disney doesn't likely want to put additional people in the express lines who aren't paying additionally for the service.

 

[brentm77]

At WDW, most queues are wheelchair accessible, save a couple, such as Jungle Cruise and BTMRR. For these rides, she would go to the ride and get a return time from the cast member working the queue. The return time can vary a bit and usually also considers the availability of ride vehicles that can accommodate a chair (in the case of the Jungle Cruise) and the train cars with wider doors (for BTMM). Disneyland has a couple more rides with this approach since more lines can't accommodate chairs. There is, of course, no requirement (by Disney) that she use a chair.

Honestly, with the amount of bench removal that has occurred, bringing one's own seat may not be such a bad idea.

DAS is needs-based, not diagnosis based. It is not usually issued for stamina/fatigue issues. Usually, a CM would suggest the visitor being/rent a wheelchair or ecv if those are the issues the guest faces.

Like any guest, if she wants to purchase Genie+ or ILL, those are available to her.

The ADA requires that an accommodation be provided that addresses the individual's needs, not that the/an accommodation preferred by the individual be provided.

That is helpful. Thank you. As I said above, I made some assumptions about the purpose of DAS that were wrong. With so many rides having Genie+ or ILL now, that is a great option for her too. I have zero problem spending the extra money to make her day easier.

I'm just used to Disneyland, where years ago, a family member in a wheelchair couldn't access more than half the rides, which required going to the exit. That's what I thought DAS was meant to replace, but understand it's not now.

 

[ttintagel]

What about the rids that don't have wheelchair access in the regular line? Will she have to to the cast member at the exit every time she wants to ride? In other words, she won't be able to reserve a spot in the app for even those rides?

Yes, that is correct. For any accommodation not covered by the DAS (like the ones I need for my low vision) you have to ask the CM at the attraction every time. If it means entering through an alternate entrance, you'll be given a one-time return time. Keeping your family in my thoughts for speedy healing!

 

[brentm77]

Yes, that is correct. For any accommodation not covered by the DAS (like the ones I need for my low vision) you have to ask the CM at the attraction every time. Keeping your family in my thoughts for speedy healing!

Honestly, I wish that wasn't the case, based on experiences years ago with a family member in a wheelchair, where even getting to the cast members at the exists was a challenge due to crowds, but I understand. I wish they had a limited DAS for non-accessible lines. Hopefully they will continue to improve line access for more rides. But at least Disney has an option.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[SteveMouse]

That is helpful. Thank you. As I said above, I made some assumptions about the purpose of DAS that were wrong. With so many rides having Genie+ or ILL now, that is a great option for her too. I have zero problem spending the extra money to make her day easier.

I'm just use to Disneyland, where years ago, a family member in a wheelchair couldn't access more than half the rides, which required going to the exit. That's what I thought DAS was meant to replace, but understand it's not now.

My personal challenges are mostly physical in nature. Some are mobility-related, some have other impacts on my body, limiting what I can do or tolerate. Professionally, I work in broader health policy.

It is important to realize that some behavioral or mental health issues can be as severe and as hard to manage as some physical ailments or conditions.

It may be helpful to think of the DAS as a tool focused on individuals who cannot be in very crowded line-like environments because being very close to other people and not being able to step away without losing their place in line would create significant harm either to themselves or the people around them.

 

[brentm77]

My personal challenges are mostly physical in nature. Some are mobility-related, some have other impacts on my body, limiting what I can do or tolerate. Professionally, I work in broader health policy.

It is important to realize that some behavioral or mental health issues can be as severe and as hard to manage as some physical ailments or conditions.

It may be helpful to think of the DAS as a tool focused on individuals who cannot be in very crowded line-like environments because being very close to other people and not being able to step away without losing their place in line would create significant harm either to themselves or the people around them.

That's helpful. I hope my post didn't imply that I think mental healthy is any less of a challenge, as that's not what I think. I was purposely vague to avoid starting a debate, but I know the children of two families aren't in the situation where a DAS is genuinely needed, as expressed by their own parents. They look at it as an entitlement since life has been somewhat more challenging in general for them and the kids, which I think some of my frustration arises. When I hear them say that, but see my daughter struggling with a brand new amputation being told it was a one time exception, that is disheartening. But people will always abuse the system and I need to let it go.

At some point in the future my daughter could sit comfortably in a wheelchair for long lines, but there are practical/medical/pain reasons she can't do that currently as she heals, but she also isn't stable enough to move through tight lines with crowds with the one leg and crutches yet, as the line moves forward. I think we will need to make that more clear for her visit to Disneyland in May. Once she can use the wheelchair in the line, or even walk comfortably with her prosthesis, I now understand why DAS is not an option for her.

 

[lanejudy]

Just a reminder that DISboards does not allow scripts for requesting DAS. Each individual must come up with their own words related to their own needs to request DAS.

 

[brentm77]

Just a reminder that DISboards does not allow scripts for requesting DAS. Each individual must come up with their own words related to their own needs to request DAS.

Understood. To be clear, I wasn't asking for a script. I was more asking for how to best articulate her situation. But that can be disregarded. Thanks.

 

[lanejudy]

I wish they had a limited DAS for non-accessible lines.

At WDW there really are very few non-accessible queues. For those attractions that are not accessible, a "wheelchair return time" may be issued or the party may be immediately directed to an accessible entrance.

They look at it as an entitlement since life has been somewhat more challenging in general for them and the kids, which I think some of my frustration arises.

Unfortunately, that is the perspective of many who may be abusing DAS. DAS -- nor any ADA accommodation -- is not intended to "make up" for challenges of living with a disability. ADA accommodations are intended to allow for equal access for the disabled.

 

[brentm77]

After doing some more thinking, and reading this thread, I think I can better articulate why it seems off that my daughter wouldn't qualify for a DAS pass when she is using her prosthesis to walk, but it could be too much to stand in lines for hours all day. It's something I was thinking, but couldn't articulate. I know this is Disney's position, and many here will disagree with me, which is fine, but I want to share my opinion to give people food for thought.

While Disney can determine which accommodation to provide, provided it provides reasonable access, the distinction between disabilities that receive DAS and someone using a prosthesis seems arbitrary, or at least inconsiderate.

If my daughter can walk for miles using a prosthesis because she gets to the point where her endurance is great, but standing in line would cause significant pain and discomfort due to adding hours to standing each day, in my opinion, she shouldn't be forced to use an extra mobility device in addition to the mobility device she uses every day. Shouldn't the ADA accommodation be one that meets the disabled person where they are at?

At some point, the limitation won't be due to stamina, but will simply be due to the discomfort and pain caused from standing in a prosthesis all day. It's hard for me to think of other disabilities where businesses say, "disregard the way you are usually mobile, and use our preferred method of mobility instead or you can't access our product." I am sure there are examples, but they would certainly be cases where the user's normal mobility device would cause an undue hardship. In this case, Disney can and does provide this accommodation to hundreds daily, yet it wants to single out a pretty rare disability and say, "use a different medical device than the one you normally use, even if that means brining it on vacation when you would leave it at home or incurring the expense of renting a crappy version."

I am open to pushback and changing my mind, but wanted to express what I was feeling and why this seemed off to me.

 

[SirDuff]

After doing some more thinking, and reading this thread, I think I can better articulate why it seems off that my daughter wouldn't qualify for a DAS pass when she is using her prosthesis to walk, but it could be too much to stand in lines for hours all day. It's something I was thinking, but couldn't articulate. I know this is Disney's position, and many here will disagree with me, which is fine, but I want to share my opinion to give people food for thought.

While Disney can determine which accommodation to provide, provided it provides reasonable access, the distinction between disabilities that receive DAS and someone using a prosthesis seems arbitrary, or at least inconsiderate.

If my daughter can walk for miles using a prosthesis because she gets to the point where her endurance is great, but standing in line would cause significant pain and discomfort due to adding hours to standing each day, in my opinion, she shouldn't be forced to use an extra mobility device in addition to the mobility device she uses every day. Shouldn't the ADA accommodation be one that meets the disabled person where they are at?

At some point, the limitation won't be due to stamina, but will simply be due to the discomfort and pain caused from standing in a prosthesis all day. It's hard for me to think of other disabilities where businesses say, "disregard the way you are usually mobile, and use our preferred method of mobility instead or you can't access our product." I am sure there are examples, but they would certainly be cases where the user's normal mobility device would cause an undue hardship. In this case, Disney can and does provide this accommodation to hundreds daily, yet it wants to single out a pretty rare disability and say, "use a different medical device than the one you normally use, even if that means brining it on vacation when you would leave it at home or incurring the expense of renting a crappy version."

I am open to pushback and changing my mind, but wanted to express what I was feeling and why this seemed off to me.

But there are a lot of people (including right here on this board) that, in their non-Disney life do not use a wheelchair or scooter but, to navigate WDW/Disneyland do so. Including for reasons like your daughter - not the limb loss specifically, but that standing in a long line/many lines would cause pain and discomfort. You may disagree with how Disney handles it, but they are not trying to "single out a pretty rare disability". It's their standard policy and applies to many people with many different disabilities and issues.

 

[lanejudy]

Shouldn't the ADA accommodation be one that meets the disabled person where they are at?

I understand your frustration, and that this is new to your daughter and I assume she has been through quite an ordeal for the past year (or more). She is going to have a learning curve in many areas of life, including how to vacation.

The ADA allows a business to offer an accommodation that provides equal access to the disabled individual. That might be a ramp or might be a lift, regardless of which the individual prefers. The ADA does allow the business some leeway in offering the accommodation(s) that causes least disruption to the operation of the business. WDW has put on record with the courts in a previous lawsuit about how allowing DAS for what they consider to be "mobility" or "stamina" needs would overwhelm the Lightning Lanes (previously FP queues).

For future visits maybe consider a rollator if that would be better than a wheelchair. Or an ECV (which can be shared with any 18+ member of the party). Maybe a cane. Maybe some other device.

There are other amputees who have posted on the disABILITIES forum from time to time. Hopefully someone will pop in and share their experience.

 

[lanejudy]

Finally, we frequent both WDW and Disneyland somewhat often. Is the DAS process the same for both parks?

DAS is generally the same in both parks and works the same in both parks. However, the computer systems are separate and she would need to request DAS for each separately. DAS is only valid for 60 days so if a repeat visit to one park or the other occurs within that time period she does not need to re-register.

DLR has more queues that are not accessible and will utilize more alternative entrances. DCA was built much later and meets ADA accessibility for the queues, as do the vast majority of queues at WDW. DAS is not needed at any of the parks to access an alternative entrance due to mobility needs.

You might find the first post of THIS THREAD helpful for an explanation of the DAS. The thread title does state "WDW" but as mentioned it is basically the same program at both parks. There is a different link to use for advanced registration for the California parks.

 

[SteveMouse]

After doing some more thinking, and reading this thread, I think I can better articulate why it seems off that my daughter wouldn't qualify for a DAS pass when she is using her prosthesis to walk, but it could be too much to stand in lines for hours all day. It's something I was thinking, but couldn't articulate. I know this is Disney's position, and many here will disagree with me, which is fine, but I want to share my opinion to give people food for thought.

While Disney can determine which accommodation to provide, provided it provides reasonable access, the distinction between disabilities that receive DAS and someone using a prosthesis seems arbitrary, or at least inconsiderate.

If my daughter can walk for miles using a prosthesis because she gets to the point where her endurance is great, but standing in line would cause significant pain and discomfort due to adding hours to standing each day, in my opinion, she shouldn't be forced to use an extra mobility device in addition to the mobility device she uses every day. Shouldn't the ADA accommodation be one that meets the disabled person where they are at?

At some point, the limitation won't be due to stamina, but will simply be due to the discomfort and pain caused from standing in a prosthesis all day. It's hard for me to think of other disabilities where businesses say, "disregard the way you are usually mobile, and use our preferred method of mobility instead or you can't access our product." I am sure there are examples, but they would certainly be cases where the user's normal mobility device would cause an undue hardship. In this case, Disney can and does provide this accommodation to hundreds daily, yet it wants to single out a pretty rare disability and say, "use a different medical device than the one you normally use, even if that means brining it on vacation when you would leave it at home or incurring the expense of renting a crappy version."

I am open to pushback and changing my mind, but wanted to express what I was feeling and why this seemed off to me.

You wanted an example of companies saying "disregard the way you are usually mobile, and use our preferred method of mobility instead or you can't access our product?" You have never been in a wheelchair and tried to go very far, have you?

Why aren't vehicle manufacturers required to include accessibility at no extra charge? I have to spend an extra $40,000 to modify a van to accommodate my wheelchair.

Planes? No commercial airline in the US accommodates a wheelchair user by allowing them to remain in their wheelchair for a flight. I can barely tolerate an airline seat today. Neither of my hips bend.. It is incredibly painful for me to attempt a flight. I end up in tears for the last 30 minutes of a 2 hour trip.

Disney isn't singling out any particular condition. The medical basis of your stamina issue is irrelevant- it could be due to a heart issue, a muscular issue, missing a limb, or something else. If one wears down over time, that is included in the definition of stamina. Again, that isn't specific to the use of prosthetics.

Disney's position is that the use of a wheelchair, ecv, rollator, walker, or other device meeting safety requirements is a method for addressing the problem. A number of years ago, there was a suit against Disney regarding the use of Segways as an accommodation. At the end of day, Segways and similar devices are now not permitted in the parks.

 

[brentm77]

But there are a lot of people (including right here on this board) that, in their non-Disney life do not use a wheelchair or scooter but, to navigate WDW/Disneyland do so. Including for reasons like your daughter - not the limb loss specifically, but that standing in a long line/many lines would cause pain and discomfort. You may disagree with how Disney handles it, but they are not trying to "single out a pretty rare disability". It's their standard policy and applies to many people with many different disabilities and issues.

This is a great point, and a good argument against my position. But I think it falls short because of important distinctions. The distinction here is that she would be required to get a mobility device in addition to her regular device, instead of one mobility device. The burden of taking two devices to the park could be substantial. It may even be three, since most people use arm crutches for a period after getting a prosthesis. Furthermore, she would be able to walk just fine, but would only limited by how long she can keep the prosthesis on. I think allowing her to enjoy walking and using her preferred mobility device is the right thing to do in this situation, even if not legally required.

You wanted an example of companies saying "disregard the way you are usually mobile, and use our preferred method of mobility instead or you can't access our product?" You have never been in a wheelchair and tried to go very far, have you?

Why aren't vehicle manufacturers required to include accessibility at no extra charge? I have to spend an extra $40,000 to modify a van to accommodate my wheelchair.

Planes? No commercial airline in the US accommodates a wheelchair user by allowing them to remain in their wheelchair for a flight. I can barely tolerate an airline seat today. Neither of my hips bend.. It is incredibly painful for me to attempt a flight. I end up in tears for the last 30 minutes of a 2 hour trip.

Disney isn't singling out any particular condition. The medical basis of your stamina issue is irrelevant- it could be due to a heart issue, a muscular issue, missing a limb, or something else. If one wears down over time, that is included in the definition of stamina. Again, that isn't specific to the use of prosthetics.

Disney's position is that the use of a wheelchair, ecv, rollator, walker, or other device meeting safety requirements is a method for addressing the problem. A number of years ago, there was a suit against Disney regarding the use of Segways as an accommodation. At the end of day, Segways and similar devices are now not permitted in the parks.

I sympathize with your situation, but they are all examples of situations where it would cause an undue hardship, like completely redesigning airplanes or cars. Disney is already provide this accommodation to hundreds and it wouldn't be an undue hardship to extend it to those with mobility devices that work well to walk, but not for standing hours in line. Furthermore, my hypothetical is a situation where it isn't a stamina issue. She would be in a situation where she could walk just fine, but standing on a prothesis that long could cause injury. I just think it's a unique situation compared to somebody who doesn't have endurance, since it's somebody who is already using a mobility device that can be accommodated.

 

[brentm77]

I understand your frustration, and that this is new to your daughter and I assume she has been through quite an ordeal for the past year (or more). She is going to have a learning curve in many areas of life, including how to vacation.

The ADA allows a business to offer an accommodation that provides equal access to the disabled individual. That might be a ramp or might be a lift, regardless of which the individual prefers. The ADA does allow the business some leeway in offering the accommodation(s) that causes least disruption to the operation of the business. WDW has put on record with the courts in a previous lawsuit about how allowing DAS for what they consider to be "mobility" or "stamina" needs would overwhelm the Lightning Lanes (previously FP queues).

For future visits maybe consider a rollator if that would be better than a wheelchair. Or an ECV (which can be shared with any 18+ member of the party). Maybe a cane. Maybe some other device.

There are other amputees who have posted on the disABILITIES forum from time to time. Hopefully someone will pop in and share their experience.

Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. I have no doubt that I am too close and emotionally invested in this issue right now to be very objective. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

I am very familiar with the ADA due to my profession, and agree that Disney is probably within its legal rights here. It just seems to me that people with prosthetics should be considered separately from somebody who has endurance issues due to age or disabilities, since people with a prosthesis are already using a mobility device. I do think it's extra burdensome to tell someone they can't use mobility device of their choice that they use in almost every other setting in life, when that device can easily be accommodated as shown by the accommodations provided to those with other disabilities. I think prosthetics are a unique situation since they allow full mobility but have other limitations when worn for too long.

But clearly this is Disney's policy and we will operate within it. Although I may pass on my thoughts to the right department As I said before, Disney has been exceptional in making rides accessible, which we really appreciate.

Thanks for your tips and suggestions too. We will look into them as things get further along.

 

[SteveMouse]

If they (cars/airplanes) had been properly designed in the first place, it wouldn't be an issue. You are blaming the victim for the poor design choices of others. You asked for examples of companies saying you couldn't use your preferred tool. I did exactly what you asked. Don't move the goal posts.

And it's more on the order of thousands.

And why not then issue DAS to the 75 year old wiho's waiting for hip replacement but her hip is hurting now? And the 22 year old with arthroscopic knee repair last week? Those are all stamina/endurance issues. Disney does not want to be in the position of determining diagnosis or evaluating needs based on diagnoses. How would you expect them to respond to a diagnosis of fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva?

You can't discriminate based on diagnosis in a public accommodation (say you will accommodate one diagnosis but not others).