Price Increases Mid January

[Madame]

Motivation and intent are important for me in family and friends. When there is no personal relationship, outcome is what matters. Doesn't matter why a company made the mistake, if they couldn't afford the fine issued by the Hawaiian government and decided to declare bankruptcy.

To each his/her own, but I believe the past presages the future. I take some issue here with the word “mistake.”

A company that would try to illegally manipulate its clientele is apt to do it again (only smarter), and Florida is not Hawaii in terms of outcome...

 

[Ben E N]

To each his/her own, but I believe the past pressages the future. I take some issue here with the word “mistake.”

A company that would try to illegally manipulate its clientele is apt to do it again (only smarter), and Florida is not Hawaii in terms of outcome...

I'm still lost on what you are accusing them of trying to do to their clientele. Trick them into paying less than they had to? Because that's what they did. If you think they were just going to start raising the rates on those MFs after enough people signed up, then why did so many people get fired as a result of the mistake? Wouldn't they have been able to share this nefarious plan with their higher ups and have them all maniacally laugh about it?

 

[Madame]

I'm still lost on what you are accusing them of trying to do to their clientele. Trick them into paying less than they had to? Because that's what they did. If you think they were just going to start raising the rates on those MFs after enough people signed up, then why did so many people get fired as a result of the mistake? Wouldn't they have been able to share this nefarious plan with their higher ups and have them all maniacally laugh about it?

They got fired because they got caught!!! They started sales of the resort with MF artificially low in order to lure in buyers and with the intention of jacking them up at a rapid pace. The MF they lured people in with were so unreasonable that had they been real they would have bankrupt the resort!! They set them artificially low, they got caught, people got fired, DVD is stuck paying millions going forward in subsidized dues.

Then there’s the OKW extension debacle which was also illegal. I really don’t get your last sentence.

 

[Ben E N]

They got fired because they got caught!!! They started sales of the resort with MF artificially low in order to lure in buyers and with the intention of jacking them up at a rapid pace. The MF they lured people in with were so unreasonable that had they been real they would have bankrupt the resort!! They set them artificially low, they got caught, people got fired, DVD is stuck paying millions going forward in subsidized dues.

Then there’s the OKW extension debacle which was also illegal. I really don’t get your last sentence.

Because they got fired from the same higher ups who would have profited from this scheme, if that's what it was. Either Disney is out to get us, in which case they would have supported these sort of plan and would have ended up raising MFs on the members, or it was either a few rogue people with a stupid plan or an actually stupid accounting issue and it got isolated and dealt with. If it's the second possibility, which it looks like it is, then it has no relation to what is going on today, and actually makes DVC look good for what they did because they both removed the people involved and honored the lower MFs to those who signed up with them, despite it costing the company a good amount of money.

 

[Madame]

Because they got fired from the same higher ups who would have profited from this scheme, if that's what it was. Either Disney is out to get us, in which case they would have supported these sort of plan and would have ended up raising MFs on the members, or it was either a few rogue people with a stupid plan or an actually stupid accounting issue and it got isolated and dealt with. If it's the second possibility, which it looks like it is, then it has no relation to what is going on today, and actually makes DVC look good for what they did because they both removed the people involved and honored the lower MFs to those who signed up with them, despite it costing the company a good amount of money.

Ok...

 

[Ben E N]

Ok...

Well this brings it all back to your original point of DVC cooking the books with Aulani. What they did in no way made DVC either more money, or look like it was making more money than it did. It was an embarrassing error, but not one that helped them in any way.

 

[Madame]

Well this brings it all back to your original point of DVC cooking the books with Aulani. What they did in no way made DVC either more money, or look like it was making more money than it did. It was an embarrassing error, but not one that helped them in any way.

Really. What would you like me to say? I don’t see it as erroneous. I believe it was done with intent just as some believe BLT dues were set artificially low in the beginning.

For me it was a company chasing sales that went too far and the state of Hawaii said “not so fast.” I am truly perplexed what you would like me to admit or reconsider, but suffice it to say I’ll leave it here and accept that we see the situation differently.

 

[Ben E N]

Really. What would you like me to say? I don’t see it as erroneous. I believe it was done with intent just as some believe BLT dues were set artificially low in the beginning.

For me it was a company chasing sales that went too far and the state of Hawaii said “not so fast.” I am truly perplexed what you would like me to admit or reconsider, but suffice it to say I’ll leave it here and accept that we see the situation differently.

Yeah I guess that's what it is. Without being behind the scenes with them, we will not know what actually happened there. And it was a weird situation and a black eye for them. It is always important to keep a close eye on exactly where our money is going. Especially when the people we are giving to is one of the largest corporations in the world, desperate to collect every penny they can in order to get their stock price up.

I know what you are saying with BLT prices being set low, especially considering it went on sale around the same time as the Aulani mess. It does seem that DVC as a whole knows that we are watching that, though, because the CCV MFs were set so high from the get go.

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

Motivation and intent are important for me in family and friends. When there is no personal relationship, outcome is what matters. Doesn't matter why a company made the mistake, if they couldn't afford the fine issued by the Hawaiian government and decided to declare bankruptcy.



Losing Disney hundreds of millions both in sales (timing is money) and dues is a good reason for termination. If a provable paper trail was discovered that's criminal incompetence.

If they claimed that “oops we made a mistake in our numbers” you fire the guy who did the spreadsheet. If it’s more that the guy who did the spreadsheet was just doing as he was told, you fire the executives.

 

[Mumof4mice]

To each his/her own, but I believe the past pressages the future. I take some issue here with the word “mistake.”

A company that would try to illegally manipulate its clientele is apt to do it again (only smarter), and Florida is not Hawaii in terms of outcome...

Haha, agree. I'll rephrase "made the mistake". How about "pushed so far beyond plausible deniability that they managed to get caught"?

 

[SL6827]

To each his/her own, but I believe the past pressages the future. I take some issue here with the word “mistake.”

A company that would try to illegally manipulate its clientele is apt to do it again (only smarter), and Florida is not Hawaii in terms of outcome...

I agree. Call it like you see it.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

This is not true. During the Great Recession, resale prices dropped significantly, but direct pricing didn't change all that much (even with incentives accounted for.)

Resale prices are driven by supply and demand. Right now, demand for WDW vacations is high, which drives up DVC rents which helps soak up excess owned points keeping them off the secondary market. When travel demand slackens*, expect to see more contracts for sale and (after any pent-up demand is satisfied) a softening of prices.

*: It is when, not if.

That's when we were getting into DVC. There were very nice deals on direct - if 20-25% off with incentives isn't nice then I don't know what is. Resale in general did not tank as much - the low point for it was the resale restriction announcement in 2011. It coincided with the tale end of the recession and people freaked. Direct was discounted more than resale until that event from my experience in buying.

Because they got fired from the same higher ups who would have profited from this scheme, if that's what it was. Either Disney is out to get us, in which case they would have supported these sort of plan and would have ended up raising MFs on the members, or it was either a few rogue people with a stupid plan or an actually stupid accounting issue and it got isolated and dealt with. If it's the second possibility, which it looks like it is, then it has no relation to what is going on today, and actually makes DVC look good for what they did because they both removed the people involved and honored the lower MFs to those who signed up with them, despite it costing the company a good amount of money.

OR - DVC got caught. The deal from Hawaii was those in charge of the mistake needed to be gone or they were going to dig deeper and pull the license more than just temporarily. Disney certainly liked their Golden Boy but weren't going to pay that price. (all conjecture - but it was suggested more than once that it was part of the deal with Hawaii).

 

[SL6827]

They got fired because they got caught!!! They started sales of the resort with MF artificially low in order to lure in buyers and with the intention of jacking them up at a rapid pace. The MF they lured people in with were so unreasonable that had they been real they would have bankrupt the resort!! They set them artificially low, they got caught, people got fired, DVD is stuck paying millions going forward in subsidized dues.

Then there’s the OKW extension debacle which was also illegal. I really don’t get your last sentence.

Is DVD paying the millions in subsidized dues or are the owners of all the DVC resorts paying it? Possible?

 

[Madame]

Is DVD paying the millions in subsidized dues or are the owners of all the DVC resorts paying it? Possible?

DVD is. There are some kind of subsidized dues at Vero too, but I think that has something to do with the size of the resort changing or something. I’ve not paid close attention to the Vero details.

 

[Ben E N]

Is DVD paying the millions in subsidized dues or are the owners of all the DVC resorts paying it? Possible?

The dues paid by members are laid out line by line. Its possible some lines are doctored, but not highly likely. The error is being paid for by Disney.

 

[Brian Noble]

But it speaks to a bigger issue in this and other threads...the expectation that Disney is some sort of benevolent corporation that is only looking out for its customers. Sadly, in 2019 that is simply not the case.

It never was.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: Disney is a company that makes money by selling happiness. That's not the same thing as "Disney wants me, personally, to be happy." But, it is easy to confuse the two. And, many people think that Disney wants them to be happy...at first. Eventually, they are disabused of that. Ultimately, Disney wants to get the most money per unit "happiness", but guests want the best bang for the buck. This necessarily puts the company and its guests in conflict.

There aren't many companies that intentionally decide that they'll just make a decent profit and try to make sure the customers get a fair deal in the process. The few I know of are all privately held. It may be impossible for a public company to do this, I don't know.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Wow, I didn't know about this stuff. Sounds like Disney pulled an Enron in Hawaii. They are lucky they got off as easily as they did.

 

[zavandor]

Wow, I didn't know about this stuff. Sounds like Disney pulled an Enron in Hawaii. They are lucky they got off as easily as they did.

I do not know how many contracts are subsidized at Aulani, maybe @wdrl knows. But we're probably talking about an expense of millions over the life of the resort. I wouldn't say they got off easily. Now, BLT, different story. When it opened it had MF much lower than SSR, now the two are head to head, many think this increase was a strategy since the beginning.

 

[Ben E N]

I do not know how many contracts are subsidized at Aulani, maybe @wdrl knows. But we're probably talking about an expense of millions over the life of the resort. I wouldn't say they got off easily. Now, BLT, different story. When it opened it had MF much lower than SSR, now the two are head to head, many think this increase was a strategy since the beginning.

The fact that GFV, Poly, and CCV all started so high and have been growing so slowly, all after the Aulani change, would support that thought.

It is worth noting that BLT is especially in the crosshairs of the county assessor, and he feels that it should be taxed at a higher rate. Some of the BLT gains I'm sure are both related to fighting that in court, and having taxes grow more than expected.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I do not know how many contracts are subsidized at Aulani, maybe @wdrl knows. But we're probably talking about an expense of millions over the life of the resort. I wouldn't say they got off easily. Now, BLT, different story. When it opened it had MF much lower than SSR, now the two are head to head, many think this increase was a strategy since the beginning.

What is fascinating is that they got caught in Hawaii, not on their own turf. I can't imagine this not being part of their corporate culture. They must be doing all kinds of things but just never get caught in Florida. It also puts their relationship with the government in California in a new light for me. I had always assumed Disney was the victim of an oppressive government in California. Maybe not...