Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients

[MouseWorshipin]

...pray for a peaceful death, or one that brings all the people she loves to her bedside before she dies, or pray for a death that turns out exactly how she wants it to, whether that be in a hospital, at home, or somewhere in between.

You might as well pray for lottery numbers as a peaceful death. Peaceful deaths are few and far between. And completely random, doled out to the most wicked sinner and the most True Believer.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Not true.

Nobody dies equally.

Some die quickly, some slowly, some with trauma and suffering, others naturally in their sleep.

I didn't suggest that anyone got the short end of the stick--but as with Jesus and his crucifixion (sp?)---our lives and deaths are all part of God's plan.

Equally and "in the same way" are different. When I say they suffer equally, I'm saying that no one group gets spared more than or less than others.

The folks who devote their lives to God are just as often in agony as those who ignore all his teachings.

 

[Aidensmom]

I believe prayers are always answered, sometimes we just don't see or understand that answer right away. If someone is very sick or dying, and I pray that their suffering be minimized, well, the answer to that very well could be death, just as well as improved health. Some people may see that as some kind of "loophole", but I just see it as God's wisdom being greater than my own.

 

[Buckalew11]

Forgive me--but aren't there also times in the OT where he just said NO. And allowed suffering to commense as punishment?


My biblical knowledge is elementary--but in doing bible readings with my daughter...in particular in Numbers 14...when the people murmur against Moses and he asks God's forgiveness--God refused..and when the murmurers did not obey God's message via Moses--they were struck down by the Amalekites and the Cananites.

So even Moses who had a direct discussion with God was told no.

Sure. I never said God never says "no". No is an answer too! But, I believe there are 4 times in the OT that God was going to destroy nations and didn't, he spared them. And there are plenty of times nations were destroyed anyway.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

If someone is very sick or dying, and I pray that their suffering be minimized, well, the answer to that very well could be death, just as well as improved health. Some people may see that as some kind of "loophole", but I just see it as God's wisdom being greater than my own.

The answer could also be, and often is, more suffering.

Ask the mom whose 7-year-old sustained 3rd degree burns over half her body and due to extent of burns and size could not receive pain killers while they scraped her skin off. Sometimes she went out on her own other times she screamed and begged them to stop. Someone show me the blessing there. That mom prayed for her daughter's agony to end, she didn't get it. Can you really believe that God chose this?

A friend of mine did the scraping and quit her job the next day.

And the people who do not pray get the same results.

 

[Buckalew11]

You kow, the biggest misconception seems to be that God is alike a magic genie or something. That Susie Smith decides she wants to be a cheerleader and poof! God makes her make the cheerleading team.

God has it all laid out. The Universe unfolds as it should. If it isn't unfolding to your plan, that's because your plan isn't the one that matters!!!!

People make the mistake all the time..."I'm going to pray to God that my mother doesn't die". Well, guess what? It may be your mother's time to die!! So instead, pray for a peaceful death, or one that brings all the people she loves to her bedside before she dies, or pray for a death that turns out exactly how she wants it to, whether that be in a hospital, at home, or somewhere in between. We have friends who have a child with Down Syndrome. When he was born, I can remember his grandmother telling me that the first month or so after he was born, she prayed that God would make him "normal" and take the Down Syndrome away. One day, she said, she rwealized that she was praying for the wrong thing. Then she started to pray for the health of the child, the ability of his parents to care for him, that he would be surroounded by love. Then, her prayers were answered.

This is God we're talking about, not The Amazing Kreskin or David Copperfield.

This is what I said in my post on this the other day and tried to say it tonight early on. I totally agree with your thoughts.

And like Lisa loves pooh says, bad is often turned into or used for good.

Death is the ultimate healing...no more sickness, no more tears, no more suffering.

 

[momsgonwild]

I believe prayers are always answered, sometimes we just don't see or understand that answer right away. If someone is very sick or dying, and I pray that their suffering be minimized, well, the answer to that very well could be death, just as well as improved health. Some people may see that as some kind of "loophole", but I just see it as God's wisdom being greater than my own.

This is my belief as well.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I wonder if Abel was praying to God as Cain was killing him? sure didn't work back then, and this is when God was supposedly hanging out and talking to people on the earth all of the time. I haven't seen very many burning bushes in my neighborhood lately.

I absolutely cannot believe that I've been forced into agreeing with the Sylvester, who while he MIGHT not be a total heathen, is absolutely a non-believer.

I better quit while I still have faith. Don't wanna be sharing a fishing boat with Sylvester and DH in hell.

ETA: The fact that those who pray and those who don't get the same results convinces me that God is not answering prayers. I don't know what he, in his Infinite Wisdom, IS doing, but he's doing the same thing for everyone.

 

[cardaway]

I find it funny that this same thing was posted here on the CB the other day (Friday, maybe?) and had few replies but Cardaway posts about the subject again because IMHO, he loves the results of this study.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1071418 I think the name of the thread was Can Science and Spiritually mix?

Boy was that ever out of line.

I did hear about the study on The Bob Rivers show this morning. Don't believe me? Just check out the link.

http://www.bobrivers.com/ontheshow/index.asp?email=none

The part I heard this morning was an early morning replay of their show from Friday.

 

[cardaway]

ETA: The fact that those who pray and those who don't get the same results convinces me that God is not answering prayers. I don't know what he, in his Infinite Wisdom, IS doing, but he's doing the same thing for everyone.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

I better quit while I still have faith. Don't wanna be sharing a fishing boat with Sylvester and DH in hell.

the fishing lines will melt in the fire and brimstone and lava, and the beer will be hot. but we're happy to have the company, you can sunbathe on the front deck.

[/IMG]

 

[MouseWorshipin]

the fishing lines will melt in the fire and brimstone and lava, and the beer will be hot. but we're happy to have the company, you can sunbathe on the front deck.

[/IMG]

Oh my God. That is the funniest thing I've seen on the DIS yet. Possibly the most blasphemous, too.

I'm not going to hell. I'll be doing my sunbathing in heaven. Don't you wish I'd be in hell. I strongly suspect that hell is sectioned off and there will be NO WOMEN or beer in hell for you Sylvester. You might wanna re-think the heathen thing.

God, that is funny...

 

[cardaway]

 

[wvrevy]

You're a rude person! There, now I feel better.

Wow...outright insults. How very christian of you, jimmiej.

Now, let's discuss prayer. The Bible often compares our relationship to God as a child/parent relationship. wvrevy, do you always say "yes" to your kid's requests? Or do you sometimes say yes, sometimes no, and sometimes wait a while? God knows what's best for us just as we know what's best for our own kids because we can see the big picture.

Funny how christians are always calling themselves ignorant children (which is what the above boils down to), but they get so touchy when anyone else does it.

Pray to god, pray to the sun, pray to the living room sofa, the results will be the same. Sometimes you'll get what you want, sometimes you won't. At least if you quit trying to fob off responsibility for your life on some "higher power" you could learn to deal with your own problems instead of hoping to follow some "divine plan".

There is a difference between me and god, jimmiej...I actually demonstrably exist. I'm the figment of nobody's imagination. "I think therefore I am...If you prick me, do I not bleed"....pick a quote, any quote. Point to god and I'll acknowledge his existance. But god lies only in things you are unable to understand, and that is not proof, just mere superstitious fear of the unknown.

 

[TnKrBeLlA012]

When my dad was dying I prayed every day for him. I wanted him to live but I didn't want him to suffer. I believe prayer works. On my parents anniversary my dad's bllod pressure dropped,his kidneys started failing. The doctors told us to be prepared. They felt he would be dying soon. That night my sister's and I never left the hospital. We asked a radio station to play the song, Angel's Among Us. They station dedicated the song to our family and gave us prayers. My dad did survive that night. Was it prayer? I believe to some degree it was. I also think it was my dad who fought to stay with us. He did die 4 months later but he should have died so much sooner. I also pray ever night for my mother,husband,children and family. There isn't a night that goes by that I don't.

 

[txgirl]

Even if I believed that suffering could be a blessing (which I emphatically do not), it doesn't change anything.

Alright MouseWorshipin, I was followin' ya till here. I must say that suffering absolutely can be a blessing. Even non-believers should agree with this point. It has been through the trials of our lives that we have learned our greatest lessons. Without constructive suffering or difficult times how in the world would we ever be where we are now. I can credit so many bad decisions and periods of my life that were the pits for making me more wise today, more appreciative today and most of all more dependent on the Lord today. Even the loss of my mother, which was the most suffering I have been through I can still count as a blessing to my level of appreciation being a mother today. It doesn't mean that everything about the suffering was good, but rather that there can and should be a blessing from it.

I taught youth SS years ago and one of our greatest challenges was that some of them had never really dealt with adversity or struggles. They had no *need* for God.

The scripture (I know, I know your take on this, but hear me out) is endless in talking about suffering. Christ says we must embrace it. I want to encourage you to not dismiss the bible just because you haven't read it very much. I know many Catholics who are not *converted* (your word, right? ) who have remained Catholic but gained incredible understanding and a greater intimacy with God by studying His word. It can't hurt, can it?

1Peter 4:14-If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

(my fav-)
James 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

As far as prayer, I agree with those who say it is about the personal relationship. Jesus tells us to pray and how to pray. Jesus himself prayed not my will, but yours be done. I do agree with you that the truth is we can't *change* God's mind. He is sovereign over all. That doesn't change my prayer.

Just like my kids may not know my answer to their question but they know that my answer is what it is and won't change. They will still pose the question or let me know how they feel. They know my response is what's best. (well we are working that part! )

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I have never said I have a problem with bible-reading. I think it is great...for other people. Nor do I have a problem with quotes (as long as it is done the way you did it, so I can follow along with what you're saying and not be trying to figure out why there are 17 Ten Commandments). If you gain peace or solace or anything from it, more power to you. I even own a bible (gift from Grammy). I don't dismiss it, I just don't read it.

When I'm talking about suffering, I'm talking about people in agonizing, physical pain. I'm not talking about adversity. I've watched a lot of people suffer some horrible stuff, and have had many emotions over the years, but never saw anything good about it. What Jesus went through is mild compared to what some people go through.

I don't think God selects little girls to burn and skin alive. Not the God I believe in. And he doesn't send nerve damage down to let people suffer for the rest of their lives, etc.

If everyone wants to believe they can pray people into health or death, or anything at all, that's fine (arrogant and mean, but fine), I give up. But if it were really possible, I'd have seen some evidence of it. And we would only need doctors and hospitals for people like Sylvester.

 

[In a hurry]

I have never said I have a problem with bible-reading. I think it is great...for other people. Nor do I have a problem with quotes (as long as it is done the way you did it, so I can follow along with what you're saying and not be trying to figure out why there are 17 Ten Commandments). If you gain peace or solace or anything from it, more power to you. I even own a bible (gift from Grammy). I don't dismiss it, I just don't read it.

When I'm talking about suffering, I'm talking about people in agonizing, physical pain. I'm not talking about adversity. I've watched a lot of people suffer some horrible stuff, and have had many emotions over the years, but never saw anything good about it. What Jesus went through is mild compared to what some people go through.

I don't think God selects little girls to burn and skin alive. Not the God I believe in. And he doesn't send nerve damage down to let people suffer for the rest of their lives, etc.

If everyone wants to believe they can pray people into health, that's fine, I give up. But if it were really possible, I'd have seen some evidence of it. And we would only need doctors and hospitals for people like Sylvester.

Exactly what part of you is religious? Maybe I missed something, but I thought you said you were in the beginning. I used to be, and I know that eveything you have said goes against everything I have heard when people speak of being a Christian. (If I missed it, and you are a Buddhist, or some other religion, please forgive me!)

I've seen people miraculously healed. But my boys died...and my baby was born...and had 2 heart surgeries...and I got cancer. And people said "it must just have been God's will." It has turned me against people in some ways!

I'm not trying to be rude, but I am confused.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Exactly what part of you is religious? Maybe I missed something, but I thought you said you were in the beginning. I used to be, and I know that eveything you have said goes against everything I have heard when people speak of being a Christian. (If I missed it, and you are a Buddhist, or some other religion, please forgive me!)

I've seen people miraculously healed. But my boys died...and my baby was born...and had 2 heart surgeries...and I got cancer. And people said "it must just have been God's will." It has turned me against people in some ways!

I'm not trying to be rude, but I am confused.

You don't know about me? Let me catch you up. I believe in God, don't care about King James' sexuality, pray for Sylvester McBean's soul every night, and I don't read the bible. So, if you're going to quote scripture, do it like txgirl does, please. Otherwise, I get lost and start thinking things like, "The Baptists have 17 Ten Commandments. But she was talking about 10 Commandments...Why do they have 17 Ten Commandments?"

I'm a Catholic and try to abide by the teachings of the church...and if you want to drag all that up, it is on the "Is being gay a lifestyle choice" thread.

I, too, have seen people recover from illness. I just haven't seen more people that pray recover than those who don't. If I had, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops. It is totally random. God may be interceding, he just isn't doing it for His followers more than non-believers.

 

[In a hurry]

Awww, OK. Thanks for not taking offense. I miss things sometimes, and have a difficult time keeping track of people! It would be the Catholic viewpoint that is different than what I experienced, I expect. The church I attended was more of a fundamental one, and I have to say that to hear some of them speak, it was my fault that drunk driver killed my sons. That there was a "lesson" for me in it.

Take care...and keep praying for Sylvester!