Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients

[Buckalew11]

I find it funny that this same thing was posted here on the CB the other day (Friday, maybe?) and had few replies but Cardaway posts about the subject again because IMHO, he loves the results of this study.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1071418 I think the name of the thread was Can Science and Spiritually mix?

Personally, I believe that sometimes God does chose to intervene and heal and sometimes not. Death is not the end (and you may certainly disagee) it is just the end of this life that we know.

Prayer isn't about making a wish. It is about asking, waiting, & accepting. We may ask and ask and ask for healing to take place and sometimes it is just not the will of God for that to happen. So, we must be prepared to ask for help in dealing with the situation, whether that be death or continuing to fight a disease or illness. I believe God has shown that He can change the course because He was asked to. I think it may have been with Job. I will look and see or someone else may know.

God never chooses who He heals based on anything but mercy. You can't be "good" enough for the healing.

Prayer is powerful. And prayer isn't only about healing and getting what you want or think you need. Prayer is talking with God. It is all about the relationship you have with your God. That's just MO.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I believe that sometimes God does chose to intervene and heal and sometimes not.

If that is true (and I'm kinda on the fence here), I assure you it has nothing to do with who prays and who doesn't. I watch all kinds of people suffer and die. And see their families, too.

The ones who are praying aren't getting better results than the ones who aren't. If God is intervening, he certainly seems to be doing it on whims.

 

[Puffy2]

Maybe it's the Catholic in me, but when I heard about this study it didn't surprise me a bit. We were always taught that intercession is a rare thing and that tragedy happens for reasons (to learn, to grow, to love). To pray is not to "get" but to learn to accept.

I do, however, think that the occasional scientific study of sprititual/mystical mysteries is a worthy pursuit.

 

[4nana]

No, what we're saying is that we don't need a study to know that God listens to our prayers. I don't need scientists to do any numbers crunch on what my odds are with God .

Personally, I believe that sometimes God does chose to intervene and heal and sometimes not. Death is not the end (and you may certainly disagee) it is just the end of this life that we know.

Prayer isn't about making a wish. It is about asking, waiting, & accepting. We may ask and ask and ask for healing to take place and sometimes it is just not the will of God for that to happen. So, we must be prepared to ask for help in dealing with the situation, whether that be death or continuing to fight a disease or illness. I believe God has shown that He can change the course because He was asked to. I think it may have been with Job. I will look and see or someone else may know.

God never chooses who He heals based on anything but mercy. You can't be "good" enough for the healing.

Prayer is powerful. And prayer isn't only about healing and getting what you want or think you need. Prayer is talking with God. It is all about the relationship you have with your God.

Amen! Totally agree with your statements.

I am definitely a believer and absolutely have no doubt in the power of prayer.

 

[Buckalew11]

If that is true (and I'm kinda on the fence here), I assure you it has nothing to do with who prays and who doesn't. I watch all kinds of people suffer and die. And see their families, too.

The ones who are praying aren't getting better results than the ones who aren't. If God is intervening, he certainly seems to be doing it on whims.

I seriously doubt that the God who created this universe does much on a "whim". He may pick and chose but not on a whim. He may chose to heal because He has plans for that person to fulfill in this life, He may to intervene because He wants Hid Glory shown to others---or someone in particular. As Puffy said, it is more about our acceptance of His Will. It is usually about OUR growth--learning, loving, growing as a person, and having faith.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I seriously doubt that the God who created this universe does much on a "whim". He may pick and chose but not on a whim. He may chose to heal because He has plans for that person to fulfill in this life, He may to intervene because He wants Hid Glory shown to others---or someone in particular. As Puffy said, it is more about our acceptance of His Will. It is usually about OUR growth--learning, loving, growing as a person, and having faith.

Buck, you know I love you (and your 17 Ten Commandments - duh me! ), and you know I'm a fairly religious person.

But I swear to you, God is no more intervening on the part of people who pray than he is on the part of people with brown hair. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

He may have His reasons, but there is no discernable pattern. That is why I said it "appears" to be on a whim.

If there were any evidence that prayer was working, I'd be the first to say so. This was hard for me to accept, but that's the way it is.

This in no way negates the fact that I believe in God, etc.

 

[Buckalew11]

Glad we can discuss this nicely, Mouseworshippin!

So, in the OT, when God "changes His mind" about the destruction of a nation because those people repented, you don't believe that it was God who spared the nations?

I didn't He has rhyme or reason. Well, mabe I do, in fact, believe that God has a reason for everything He choses to do or not to do. As much as I believe that God already knows the future and what our plans are, I think God does intervene sometimes.

So, do you feel this way only with healing? What are your thoughts on prayer in general, if I may ask.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I don't know about the OT because:

1. As you know, I don't read it (I'm notorious for this now)
2. It was a looong time ago. Maybe God was intervening then. I dunno.

I just know that he doesn't now.

He doesn't "heal" sick people who are prayerful, or whose families and churches are praying for them, anymore than he heals those who don't believe in him. I don't know WHY, I just know that is how it is. I really wish I could say that the people who are prayerful end up suffering or dying less than others, but it just isn't so.

I do believe that people can get strength and peace from prayer, if they believe in God.

 

[Buckalew11]

Well, we'll agree to disagree.

Because I believe He sometimes does chose to heal someone who is sick. Not saying I think people who are prayed for suffer less or die less because like I said, we all die sometime and (IMHO) death is not the end. We live for eternity somewhere. Death may seem like the worst thing that can happen but it is not. Eternal life in the Presence of God goes unequaled.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Because I believe He sometimes does chose to heal someone who is sick.

I'm not disagreeing that he may be intervening. I don't know what the heck is going on.

He just isn't intervening on behalf of his followers any more often than those who don't believe in him.

(I don't want to be struck down by a swift, powerful sword for saying that God doesn't intervene. )

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in on this one... The premise of the study seems very hard to control. As a Christian I realize that when I pray for someone to be healed I may very well be praying for them to die. Hope that makes sense... basically I believe that there is much more to existance than drawing breath here and now. Sometimes a death can be an answer to prayer. When I pray for someone I pray that God would be with that person thru their circumstances. Anyhow for the topic at hand (the study), I think it is just about impossible to measure the efficacy of prayer.

 

[Buckalew11]

while I believe He loves us (believers and unbelievers) equally, I also believe He does often wait to be asked before He acts. But I also believe that if God isn't finished with an unbeliever's life here, He may also chose to heal that person too--even though that sick person hasn't asked for it himself nor anyone has asked for his healing either. Just God's Will for that person's life to live.

(I love you covering your bases! LOL )

 

[Buckalew11]

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in on this one... The premise of the study seems very hard to control. As a Christian I realize that when I pray for someone to be healed I may very well be praying for them to die. Hope that makes sense... basically I believe that there is much more to existance than drawing breath here and now. Sometimes a death can be an answer to prayer. When I pray for someone I pray that God would be with that person thru their circumstances. Anyhow for the topic at hand (the study), I think it is just about impossible to measure the efficacy of prayer.

I agree.

I was asking my DD her thoughts about this and she said the same thing.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm praying that this thread will die very soon.

Studies show that this may or may not be effective.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

I wonder if Abel was praying to God as Cain was killing him? sure didn't work back then, and this is when God was supposedly hanging out and talking to people on the earth all of the time. I haven't seen very many burning bushes in my neighborhood lately.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

As a fairly religious person and a nurse, I'm gonna throw my $.02 in here.

I don't believe that prayer will change the outcome of disease. I've seen a lot of very good people not get their prayers answered. To say that YOUR prayers were answered implies that God cared enough about you to answer your prayers, but not enough about others to answer theirs. It is basically a slap in the face to someone who's kid/spouse/parent died even though they were a very good person and prayed very hard.

I've heard people say, "There but for the Grace of God go I," and it burns a little. Sometimes I want to say, "So, God decided not to Grace those folks? He singled YOU out for His Grace? What makes you so special?" Of course, I would never, ever say it, but it ticks me off just the same. I cannot help but think it is a little arrogant to believe that God answers your prayers, but not others'.

In the end, everyone dies. You just can't pray someone into living, no matter what.

Again, I'm fairly religious, and if I had seen that prayer made ANY difference, I'd sure say so.

I do believe that people - patients, family members, anyone who believes in it - can gain strength and peace from prayer, or be soothed by a member of the clergy. That I do see. I pray for my patients (and their families), but I don't pray that God will take someone's mother's cancer away. I don't think he's getting anymore involved in that than he is in the Little League teams that are praying for a Win.

I don't know why God, in His infinite wisdom, allows people to suffer so badly and die. But I do know that he isn't making the choices based on who is praying and who isn't.

If you read this far, thanks. And flame away, I know it is coming.

What I find interesting--that even via suffering there can be blessings. Good things come out of bad.

Sometimes a bad event--though tragic for whom it happened to is the catelyst needed for someone else.

I'm not very articulate with this, so I apologize..but it happens ALL the time.


Sometimes it takes a dark moment to bring someone to the light.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Glad we can discuss this nicely, Mouseworshippin!

So, in the OT, when God "changes His mind" about the destruction of a nation because those people repented, you don't believe that it was God who spared the nations?

Forgive me--but aren't there also times in the OT where he just said NO. And allowed suffering to commense as punishment?


My biblical knowledge is elementary--but in doing bible readings with my daughter...in particular in Numbers 14...when the people murmur against Moses and he asks God's forgiveness--God refused..and when the murmurers did not obey God's message via Moses--they were struck down by the Amalekites and the Cananites.

So even Moses who had a direct discussion with God was told no.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

What I find interesting--that even via suffering there can be blessings. Good things come out of bad.

Sometimes a bad event--though tragic for whom it happened to is the catelyst needed for someone else.

I'm not very articulate with this, so I apologize..but it happens ALL the time.


Sometimes it takes a dark moment to bring someone to the light.

Even if I believed that suffering could be a blessing (which I emphatically do not), it doesn't change anything.

God's followers and non-believers suffer equally. They get better equally. They die equally. He doesn't take sides. He doesn't punish those who go against him, he doesn't reward those who follow.

Maybe in heaven, but certainly not in the hospital.

And sometimes good things don't come out of bad things. Sometimes, good people get the short stick, and that's that.

 

[Disney Doll]

You kow, the biggest misconception seems to be that God is alike a magic genie or something. That Susie Smith decides she wants to be a cheerleader and poof! God makes her make the cheerleading team.

God has it all laid out. The Universe unfolds as it should. If it isn't unfolding to your plan, that's because your plan isn't the one that matters!!!!

People make the mistake all the time..."I'm going to pray to God that my mother doesn't die". Well, guess what? It may be your mother's time to die!! So instead, pray for a peaceful death, or one that brings all the people she loves to her bedside before she dies, or pray for a death that turns out exactly how she wants it to, whether that be in a hospital, at home, or somewhere in between. We have friends who have a child with Down Syndrome. When he was born, I can remember his grandmother telling me that the first month or so after he was born, she prayed that God would make him "normal" and take the Down Syndrome away. One day, she said, she rwealized that she was praying for the wrong thing. Then she started to pray for the health of the child, the ability of his parents to care for him, that he would be surroounded by love. Then, her prayers were answered.

This is God we're talking about, not The Amazing Kreskin or David Copperfield.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Even if I believed that suffering could be a blessing (which I emphatically do not), it doesn't change anything.

God's followers and non-believers suffer equally. They get better equally. They die equally. He doesn't take sides. He doesn't punish those who go against him, he doesn't reward those who follow.

Maybe in heaven, but certainly not in the hospital.

And sometimes good things don't come out of bad things. Sometimes, good people get the short stick, and that's that.

Not true.

Nobody dies equally.

Some die quickly, some slowly, some with trauma and suffering, others naturally in their sleep.

I didn't suggest that anyone got the short end of the stick--but as with Jesus and his crucifixion (sp?)---our lives and deaths are all part of God's plan.