PPO BOG did not cause Early Morning Magic

[snayak]

We had a PPO BOG breakfast in November and loved it! We don't rope drop and wanted 1 day to be in the park before opening to walk down a fairly empty Main Street and get our pictures taken. We only ordered 2 of the Meat and cheese trays to split between DH, myself and our 3 little ones. With the pastries that came with the meal it was a nice light breakfast for us. We took our time eating and finished about 10 minutes before park opening. We are not big breakfast eaters so QS and splitting meals is perfect for us. I don't think we took advantage as we are light breakfast eaters and usually eat in our room or split QS breakfasts. Thy could always make all meals at BOG TS if they wanted to avoid this. I don't see why splitting QS for breakfast is any different than splitting QS for luck or dinner.

You did absolutely nothing wrong! Forget splitting QS at Disney, my wife & I split entrees in Paris, France because we couldn't/didn't want to eat as much!

As of right now, today, 3/25/2016, guest are able to book an ADR for breakfast at Be Our Guest, order as much (or little) as they would like, and then go about their day in the park, even (or especially) if its before rope drop.

Some guests make may these ADRs with an alleged ulterior motive - to skip the meal (or order very little, i.e. not truly eat breakfast) and beat the large crowds to the much desired Fantasyland attractions, including 7DMT or Meet & greet with A&E. This enables the guest (or group) to save a coveted FP+ but still experience the attraction with little wait. Some may even forgo the meal entirely, paying the "no show" fee. Again, this makes perfect sense to do.

Disney now has a pre-opening offering which includes breakfast and three attractions in Fantasyland.

I (and maybe some others) connect this to Disney realizing the value of entering the parks before the "hoi polloi" and capitalizing on it. I cannot state this this is absolutely true, maybe this has been in the playbook since 1986 and they just found this idea cause a couple of pages were stuck together and they just pulled them apart. Unless you are a member of or personally know a Parks & Resorts decision maker (Sr. Management or higher) you can only speculate on reasons. It could be Shanghai overruns, interest rates, the alignment of the stars or El Nino - all we know is what they publicly release.

I don't know if this will replace Extra Magic Hours, but would imagine that early morning crowds will be higher on days this is offered. Unfortunately, it might spill crowds into other lands, since the folks who sprung for this no longer have to spend the morning waiting in lines in Fantasyland.

 

[mummabear]

People are saying the whole Early Morning Magic money grab is the result of all us cheaters who made PPO BOG reservations with no intent of ordering a full meal at $25 a head (for a donut, no less!).

Yes, I'll admit it! I have a PPO BOG lined up for our next trip. No way was I ordering four meals. Maybe one. Maybe just a cupcake and a cup of coffee! I wanted to get in the park early. I wanted to line up early for 7DMT. Lock me up! That was my sole purpose for the ADR! I make no apologies!

To each their own. i have no horse in this race, with the time difference we never get the kids up and to the park until 10 or 11. However I do think it is really rude. Is it cheating well, an anr is and advanced DINING reservation and I think making one with no intention on dining is at best dishonest and is cheating someone who actually wants to dine there a spot.

I have never commented on this subject as I'm not passionate about it but will say I recall plenty of complaints about them changing the park opening up and that ruining their plans rather that people stating/implying others are bad for making the reservations for the purpose of getting in early. I also recall plenty of people complain about how they didn't get the priority over the rope drop crowd at mine train like they 'deserve'.

I see a small difference in between stopping for photos on the way to an ADR that you actually use and making an ADR as the OP has with no intention of actually using it for eating. Disney pre charging without refund for no shows as the do for CRT would be a good solution for this. It would be interesting to see if the ADRs would still be snapped up.

Wouldn't be surprised if a fixed BOG price is the next big change.

Be good to see it being opened for people who would actually like to eat there. Makes financial sense as well, it would be one change I wouldnt be sighing about Disney nickle and diming everyone

 

[Nancyg56]

I don't understand why you are upset ... I really haven't seen anyone blame the people who are doing what you are doing so much as blaming Disney for allowing it. I blame Disney for building a stunning restaurant and in 3.5 years it's still a cluster. I blame Disney for not opening breakfast as published. As a stockholder I blame Disney for not operating the restaurant to it's maximum potential and generating the income it could to run that big thing. Now if you are using their loophole they very knowingly created, how would anyone blame you. I have only seen people talking about the action, not the guest. The action exists because of Disney.

NOW to your point that it's not the PPO ADR's fault that these are happening, I disagree. For decades people have killed themselves over CP and CRT reservations ... not just for the restaurant, but to be on empty Main Street and be first in line to important rides. Then came New Fantasyland and this huge beautiful castle that cost MUCH LESS than the other two options, and now was offering PPO Breakfast. Better yet it was steps to the Mine Train and A&E. People are killing themselves to get in to these places, especially BOG due to setup. Disney most certainly watches the behavior of guests and see there is a demand so strong they could benefit from it.

But you know ever since they announced the cupcake and ala carte drinks at breakfast .... I've been are they out of their minds?!?! making this situation even worse. Something you said made me think ... maybe this was bait. Get more and more people in a frenzy (which Disney does well) about getting that breakfast ADR so they are in the park early. And then - boom - offer a morning event that gives you a mini-EMH with breakfast. Testing us. For the last few years it seems everything is a test to see how well received. They want to open more things to offsite because they are important and with more offsite options now and coming, they need to keep them hooked. Disney isn't building hotels, just DVC so they have to keep dangling the carrots so offsite guests stay committed to Disney days.

If people bite on this then they know they can sell EMH. They didn't do it at BOG because they didn't need something that size, they didn't need to create a market for that since this isn't every day, and if they are using this to gently adjust things .. maybe they are going to change up BOG in some way. I say either make it TS or make it true Prix Fixe, only using the ballroom if need be.

They are always testing the waters, always seeing where folks will bite or push back, and if they can find a way to actually generate income during EMH - why shouldn't they? They haven't been there forever, at one point you paid for them and are drastically less than they were.

The rabid behavior of guests to get into the parks early, on to the mine train early, clearly not interested in breakfast (BOG) has given them the info on demand that could pull this off. We'll see but I think they just might do it.

I have thought this as well. I have never blamed anyone for taking advantage of BOG and the Disney "loophole", but I also never understood how Disney allowed it to occur in the first place. This beautiful restaurant has never found it's identity, and why is that?

I believe that Disney was well aware that people were not purchasing entire meals and using the restaurant as an opportunity not to have photo ops, but to take advantage of an attraction that is terribly difficult to exerience. So why not use this information and charge people to get on specific attractions that seem to back up on SB queues during the day? Bingo!

So they opened more doors to BOG by allowing cupcakes and all carte beverages. Go ahead...see the Castle. Basically, for the small fee of a $5 cupcake and a $3 cup of coffee you are able to gain entrance and see the Attraction known as BOG. But I bet no more Mine Train.....Not even when there are no Magic Mornigns....

I do not blame Disney. I think it would have been rediculous to allow an opportunity to escape when they saw that people may be willing to pay for a meal and early entrance.

 

[Nancyg56]

Wouldn't be surprised if a fixed BOG price is the next big change.

I don't know. If they remove the incentive of early morning rides on Mine Train, then they now have another paid event really. Folks are willing to pay for dessert at 8 AM on order to see the inside of the Castle. There may be no need to increase the cost, they just turn it into an all carte CS restaurant.

 

[Nancyg56]

No one has been cheating at BOG.

But BOG represents visible demand. They would be blind not to see that.

Where I think the PPO BOG crowd has been a problem isn't related to this new offering. I have heard tales of some early diners behaving badly if 7DMT isn't running early, or needs an extra run on checklist, berating CMs because they paid for a PPO to get there first or ride before rope drop. And that's not a way to treat those CMs when "free ore-rope drop ride!" was never part of the BOG PPO promise. An expensive doughnut was.

I think this is an issue as well. Now I bet you a buck there will be no issues from the BOG crowd....the attraction is a paid for event. If the attraction breaks down then Disney can address how to reimburse their guests who paid, but the CM's will nto need to deal with the folks who felt entitled to a ride and were disappointed.

 

[nilla]

However I do think it is really rude. Is it cheating well, an anr is and advanced DINING reservation and I think making one with no intention on dining is at best dishonest and is cheating someone who actually wants to dine there a spot.

Wow, I haven't looked at it that way. I agree 100%. I never realized people were doing this and NOT really eating.

 

[Nancyg56]

I think you're misunderstanding the MBA mentality.

It's not that they had a direct problem with it. But rather they saw that people booking PPO ADRs were getting more value than people booking post-RD ADRs for breakfast. And when some people are getting more value for the same price, an MBA looks for either a problem or an opportunity. They could see that they were leaving money on the table, and figure out a way to get it.

In other words, PPO BOG caused Early Morning Magic by providing the market research data to both inspire the idea and to prove it was a viable idea.

I think it makes perfect sense. I love a PPO breakfast in each park and generally book them for my family. I have to wonder if I would want to spend a little more and get to take them on the hard to get to attractions in the early morning, especially during the Summer months. And I am pretty cheap.

I have read that BOG is a test restaurant in many areas, and I believe it. I think that that Disney saw the demand, decided to capitalize on it, and as much as I understand the frustration on the boards, I don't blame Disney.

 

[TISHLOVESDISNEY]

The one obvious fact that sticks out to me in all of this: if Disney had issues with what they created with prepark BOG ADRS why open SDMT early? Why not keep everyone in a line until 8:45?
I don't think Disney is stupid, I don't see any of it as a "loophole", but a possibly temporary advantage until this new offering kicked in. I would be shocked if they still allowed SDMT to open early after this starts on the regular days.

 

[Nancyg56]

Wow, I haven't looked at it that way. I agree 100%. I never realized people were doing this and NOT really eating.

From the minute this restaurant opened Disney did not enforce everyone ordering a full meal. Not only did they not enforce it, they added an ala carte beverage and cupcake option. I do not believe that Disney would have expanded the ability to "beat the system" if they considered it cheating. They are okay with this, at least for now.

Personally I think that this is a wicked huge restaurant and it has a potential to feed a lot of people during the morning hours. You cannot enter unless you buy something, so Disney is giving folks an opportunity to see this Castle for the price of a cupcake or a shared entree.

WE all have our own comfort levels for what we consider appropriate behavior, but we do nto have the right to insist our way is the only way. DIsney sets the rules for its eateries. You will seldom hear about exceptions made for folks in buffets who either will not or cannot eat. They pay for their seat. If Disney intended a hard line at BOG, there would never have been the allowances made on the first day they opened, and if the issue was truly a problem, that allowances would have been stopped, not expanded.

 

[nilla]

From the minute this restaurant opened Disney did not enforce everyone ordering a full meal. Not only did they not enforce it, they added an ala carte beverage and cupcake option. I do not believe that Disney would have expanded the ability to "beat the system" if they considered it cheating. They are okay with this, at least for now.

Personally I think that this is a wicked huge restaurant and it has a potential to feed a lot of people during the morning hours. You cannot enter unless you buy something, so Disney is giving folks an opportunity to see this Castle for the price of a cupcake or a shared entree.

WE all have our own comfort levels for what we consider appropriate behavior, but we do nto have the right to insist our way is the only way. DIsney sets the rules for its eateries. You will seldom hear about exceptions made for folks in buffets who either will not or cannot eat. They pay for their seat. If Disney intended a hard line at BOG, there would never have been the allowances made on the first day they opened, and if the issue was truly a problem, that allowances would have been stopped, not expanded.

I understand, and wouldn't expect Disney to crack down on it if they didn't see it as a problem. I just know if my wife proposed this, I'd have a hard to agreeing to it.

But then again, she's criticized me in the past for that exact type of conscience

 

[Nancyg56]

I understand, and wouldn't expect Disney to crack down on it if they didn't see it as a problem. I just know if my wife proposed this, I'd have a hard to agreeing to it.

But then again, she's criticized me in the past for that exact type of conscience

I guess I do not understand the "conscience" issue. This is a CS restaurant, and from day one, Disney allowed sharing. They not only allowed people to share, they opened the door for people to simply order a cupcake in order to eat in the restaurant. If this was not a practice that was condoned by Disney, this would never happen. Never.

My family usually is in the DDP and we all order a meal in BOG for breakfast, but we like breakfast, and this one suits our family more than CP does. But if one of us was not hungry, I would have no problem sharing my food, or having the person order a beverage. I am not a rule breaker, and I do not spend one second tryng to find ways to scam Disney, and truthfully, I have never understood why BOG did not enforce the fixed prix meals per person, but I cannot see any wrongdoing since they chose not to do so.

 

[Nancyg56]

The one obvious fact that sticks out to me in all of this: if Disney had issues with what they created with prepark BOG ADRS why open SDMT early? Why not keep everyone in a line until 8:45?
I don't think Disney is stupid, I don't see any of it as a "loophole", but a possibly temporary advantage until this new offering kicked in. I would be shocked if they still allowed SDMT to open early after this starts on the regular days.

I think that initially the early opening of Mine Train was a little Pixie Dust. It did not take long though, for DIsney to see an opportunity in teh making.

 

[KateP85]

I can't say I blame people for taking advantage of BOG not forcing people to pay for a whole meal, and I do think their prices are ridiculous for what they are. But at some point Disney is going to stop allowing this because they're losing money. They're operating a CS location at full capacity with people spending way less than they thought they would just because they can. I would say sometime this year BOG breakfast will change to actual prices per person.

They need to release the dates of this early morning magic thing at MK because on those days, any PPO ADR is useless if you want empty Main Street pictures or to line up early for SDMT. I see a lot of cancellations, which will be nice for people who actually want to eat at CRT/CP/BOG to enjoy the food!

 

[Nancyg56]

I can't say I blame people for taking advantage of BOG not forcing people to pay for a whole meal, and I do think their prices are ridiculous for what they are. But at some point Disney is going to stop allowing this because they're losing money. They're operating a CS location at full capacity with people spending way less than they thought they would just because they can. I would say sometime this year BOG breakfast will change to actual prices per person.

They need to release the dates of this early morning magic thing at MK because on those days, any PPO ADR is useless if you want empty Main Street pictures or to line up early for SDMT. I see a lot of cancellations, which will be nice for people who actually want to eat at CRT/CP/BOG to enjoy the food!

We have no idea if Disney is losing money. I doubt it. I think Disney expanded their money making opportunity by allowing increased options for folks to order in the morning.

As to an empty Main Street, that ship sailed a long time ago. I am also if the opinion that once Disney determines if the early magic is viable, anyone who does not buy the package will be held behind ropes and will enter along with the rest of the rd crowd. There may be cancellations, I will agree with that.

 

[jo-jo]

The write up for the early morning deal is talking about a sticker. So could it be that "just" eating at BOG will no longer allow you that extra mine train ride because you don't have a sticker?

 

[aaarcher86]

I don't know. If they remove the incentive of early morning rides on Mine Train, then they now have another paid event really. Folks are willing to pay for dessert at 8 AM on order to see the inside of the Castle. There may be no need to increase the cost, they just turn it into an all carte CS restaurant.

I think people are still so desperate for BOG reservations they'll pay it just to see inside the castle.

Then you've got breakfast bringing in more money on top of this paid morning BS.

 

[mom2rtk]

I have thought this as well. I have never blamed anyone for taking advantage of BOG and the Disney "loophole", but I also never understood how Disney allowed it to occur in the first place. This beautiful restaurant has never found it's identity, and why is that?

I believe that Disney was well aware that people were not purchasing entire meals and using the restaurant as an opportunity not to have photo ops, but to take advantage of an attraction that is terribly difficult to exerience. So why not use this information and charge people to get on specific attractions that seem to back up on SB queues during the day? Bingo!

So they opened more doors to BOG by allowing cupcakes and all carte beverages. Go ahead...see the Castle. Basically, for the small fee of a $5 cupcake and a $3 cup of coffee you are able to gain entrance and see the Attraction known as BOG. But I bet no more Mine Train.....Not even when there are no Magic Mornigns....

I do not blame Disney. I think it would have been rediculous to allow an opportunity to escape when they saw that people may be willing to pay for a meal and early entrance.

I'm curious what you mean by the bolded?

I think this entire thing has been a big dance between Disney and its guests. Both sides know what the others are up to and are enabling each other. They could make it fixed price, but they'd likely deter some paying customers from booking. I think they used the BOG experience as a test for this new high dollar event. But they just recently increased costs, what..... 20% for breakfast so the cronut is now $24? Do they really think people are paying $24 for a cronut? They knew people would pay it if they had a 10 minute head start on 7DMT so it worked. And I also find myself wondering if anyone really will pay $24 for a cronut on days when the early event is running and all they get when they are done eating is a chance to see the event guests riding.

 

[Nancyg56]

I think people are still so desperate for BOG reservations they'll pay it just to see inside the castle.

Then you've got breakfast bringing in more money on top of this paid morning BS.

Me too. I absolutely think that this is the reason Disney offers the cupcake. You cannot go in without an ADR, and like it or not, this restaurant is treated like an attraction

 

[jrmasm]

Wouldn't be surprised if a fixed BOG price is the next big change.

I agree. I have very hard time seeing cupcake 'breakfasts' lasting forever.

 

[aaarcher86]

Me too. I absolutely think that this is the reason Disney offers the cupcake. You cannot go in without an ADR, and like it or not, this restaurant is treated like an attraction

I don't disagree, but I think if they believe they can get away with charging $25 a head instead of the price of a cupcake, why not?