Possible big reduction in Future Worlds hours.

[crusader]

AV -

I understand your point but an entire state which relies on tourism or the gambling industry are not fair examples to measure this theme park against. They have to be far more concerned with their competitors than WDW. A casino hangs a 24 hour sign on its doors but in a slow economy may not have many tables open.

WDW is still operating with little competition.

More is going on here than "meeting guests needs"...

I don't doubt this but rather than speculate on the implication it would be great if you elaborated a bit further.

 

[raidermatt]

WDW is still operating with little competition.

A common misconception...

WDW's main competition is not other theme parks. WDW is a family vacation destination, and as such, its main competition is other family vacation destinations.

When families decide where to go on vacation, the decision is not whether to go to Magic Mountain or to go to WDW. The choice might be the Los Angeles / San Diego area as a whole, but not just another theme park or even a collection of theme parks.

Hawaii, Yellowstone, The Caribbean, Europe, LA/SD, SF, New York, Las Vegas and even Grandma's house are competing directly against WDW for a family's entire vacation. Ignoring that would be a tremendous mistake.

 

[crusader]

Hawaii, Yellowstone, The Caribbean, Europe, LA/SD, SF, New York, Las Vegas and even Grandma's house are competing directly against WDW for a family's entire vacation

They are competing against the state of Florida as a vacation destination.

 

[All Aboard]

They are competing against the state of Florida as a vacation destination.

You really think so? Do many people visiting WDW make it down to Miami or Key West, or over to Daytona or out to Pensacola? I think the sheer size of WDW consumes virtually an entire vacation for most out-of-state guests. My guess would be only a small portion of guests even travel outside of Orlando. That's the evidence the state is now using to justify the high speed rail that would link cities in Florida, since visitors (especially those travelling by air) tend to stay where they land.

 

[crusader]

gcurling -

Yes I do think the other states, countries and continents Matt mentioned are competing against Florida as a vacation destination.

The cutback in hours at EPCOT was being compared to Vegas and Hawaii. You cannot correlate this given the obvious distinction.

 

[CarolA]

You know I have never been to this board, but I got over here by misstake and I have two things about this thread
1. I don't normally trust Sreamscape. They seem to be hit or miss.
2. Vegas does cut WAY back during slow times. Yep the casinos are open, but there are fewer table staffed, the free shows at the casinos are often cut way back or elimanated and they don't bring in the headline acts.

 

[WDWalways]

Originally posted by raidermatt
By doing things an hour at a time (as they have with MK and AK as well), the shock value is decreased.
So what if next year they go to 5pm in FW, 4:30pm at AK, and throw in more 6pms at MK? Not that much of a change...
Then a year or two later, FW=4:30, AK=4:00, and MK starts getting 5pm?

I'm sorry, I had to respond to this - you're making it sound like in another few years - give or take - MK will be open 10a - 2p and AK may only be open an hour (if we're lucky ) at the rate Disney is going - c'mon now, they cut hours during slow periods and are open longer hours during peak periods - I don't see what's so wrong about this and why mountains are being made out of molehills - it's getting silly now IMO.

 

[Another Voice]

Disney has spent the last two decades trying to wall themselves off from the rest of the Florida in people’s mines. WDW views itself, markets itself, and operates itself as a self-contained resort. All aspects of the expansions in the 1990’s were aimed solely at keeping people on Disney property by directly replacing offsite activities: hotel rooms, nighttime entertainment, Universal Studios, water parks, even miniature golf.

It is Walt Disney World itself, not Florida that competes with other destination vacations. The era of “come the Florida and stop by WDW” ended with the opening of EPCOT Center. The resort now operates very much today in direct competition to Vegas, Hawaii, New York, cruises and other destinations. Florida is no longer part of the equation.

The cut back in hours are a serious matter because even Disney is finding that people place a value on them. The average guest drops a couple thousand dollars to visit WDW (okay, no stories about how with your DVC membership, annual passes and driving down with Aunt Bea you can do it for $1.95 – I’m talking about normal people). The cost very comparable to a cruise (and Disney sets their prices based on other resort destinations and cruises).

People tend to want value for their hard earned money. And just as they expect a cruise ship to maintain its itinerary, that the casino will always be open, the pools are filled, and all the wonderful things they’ve read about in the brochure are true…they expect Disney to live up to the hype that they’ve read about as well.

It doesn’t matter if you always leave Future World by 2 p.m. or if you have seen SpectroMagic a thousand times and can skip it or if you can enjoy Animal Kingdom just by looking at the trees – it’s what the great unwashed masses want. They want to enjoy the parks and not be herded out, they want to see fireworks and parades, they want to have the vacation that was promised them in the commercials and the videos and the fancy full color brochures.

Mountains and molehills are all a matter of perspective; the problem for Disney is that there are a handful of people who see a little pile of dirt and millions that see mountain of problems – all those millions who stopped showing up starting in the summer of 2000. Short hours, aging attractions, thin entertainment, the growing expense and the “we’ve got your money, we don’t care” attitude that many people feel is now a part of the WDW experience is having a direct and substantial impact.

Remember – WDW can’t operate just as your private little playground. You have to worry about how the other 14 million people feel.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Another Voice
Mountains and molehills are all a matter of perspective; the problem for Disney is that there are a handful of people who see a little pile of dirt and millions that see mountain of problems – all those millions who stopped showing up starting in the summer of 2000. Short hours, aging attractions, thin entertainment, the growing expense and the “we’ve got your money, we don’t care” attitude that many people feel is now a part of the WDW experience is having a direct and substantial impact.

--------------------------

Well said! This is exactly the point I have been trying to make all along.. Notice the DATE - summer of 2000.. This is before 9/11; before the soft economy; before people became paranoid about flying; before the current war in Irag; before the SARS incidents; and before any of us ever even knew what a color-coded terrorist threat warning was!!

Disney continually shoots themselves in the foot by aggravating and alienating the very people they want to come to their parks and then they have the audacity to turn around and blame it soley on "world events".. There's more to this situation than meets the eye - but first you have to open your eyes to see it..

 

[crusader]

It is Walt Disney World itself, not Florida that competes with other destination vacations.

OK - I get it. But I think Florida is still competing as well. There will always be people who go to Florida and stop by WDW - even today.

My point was that to compare cutting back hours to Vegas is not feasible given two basic fundamental facts:

1) Vegas is the city that never sleeps and will remain open 24 hours.
2) There are too many casinos competing with one another to ever change this.

And Hawaii - much too broad a demographic to apply the phrase "shutting down early" to.

They want to enjoy the parks and not be herded out, they want to see fireworks and parades, they want to have the vacation that was promised them in the commercials and the videos and the fancy full color brochures.

You're right. Disney is not making enough of an investment in providing these things to the degree they are marketed. Having seen the video and commercials I wouldn't categorize it as false advertisement either. It may not knock your socks off or exceed your expectations but it is what it is - disneyworld.

I don't know if its plagued by a mountain or a molehill of problems. This vacation is so choice driven we share in the responsibility of guaranteeing its success.

 

[Another Voice]

But Disney is trying to be a complete "all vacation, all the time" destination just like Vegas, Hawaii and cruises - but now they are acting like a regional Six Flags park with cost-management hours.

And Disney sits around wondering where all the people went.

The pattern at WDW is extactly the same as if Hawaii shut down the beaches early, if Vegas only offered blackjack only at certain times or if a crusie ship set it's course based on the number of people who showed up this week. Disney's actions are not a rational, business approach to the challenges of running a vacation destination.

They think they can get away with it becasue of some built-in customer base and demand for The Product. They think they are special and magical. But they're not.

People want a vacation. Sure, many here have been to WDW so many times that they accept the shorter hours and all the other reductions. But many, many, many, many, many people in the WDW customer database don't fit that profile and they are choosing to go elsewhere.

Making excuses for Disney's dumb moves or blaming people for not "taking responbility" to lower their expectations isn't going to reverse the situation.

 

[crusader]

But many, many, many, many, many people in the WDW customer database don't fit that profile and they are choosing to go elsewhere.

This is not because of the changes. This has to do with the stigma which plagues WDW as being an "expensive vacation".

Making excuses for Disney's dumb moves or blaming people for not "taking responbility" to lower their expectations isn't going to reverse the situation.

I don't excuse Disney for not providing enough nor do I excuse the guest for blaming solely the "place" for their unhappiness. Too much information is available today to affect the decision making process. Approaching this vacation should be no different than any other you choose to embark on.

If they want to reverse the situation regarding attendance they need to make it more affordable. If they want to reverse the situation with the "regulars" they need to give them that added something that will make them feel appreciated.

Granted, this is one step in the right direction.

 

[raidermatt]

Price is not the problem...or at least its a small part of the problem. The main problem is the other half of the value equation. Of course, if you are going to reduce the benefit side, more people will complain about price. But in Disney's case, they are only complaining about price because they are finding WDW is not delivering what they expect for the price.

c'mon now, they cut hours during slow periods and are open longer hours during peak periods - I don't see what's so wrong about this and why mountains are being made out of molehills - it's getting silly now IMO.

Sorry you feel its silly, but hours were being reduced BEFORE attendance started falling.

They TELL you that's why the hours are shorter but the facts show there are other things at work.

No, I don't think MK will be open from 10-2 in a couple of years. But did you think days that used to be 8:30-Midnight would now be 9-10? Or 9-9 would become 9-6? Or 8-7 at AK would become 9-5?

Again, this began when attendance was rising, and accelerated when attendance began to fall.

I don't pretend to know where it will stop, but I'm sure that if attendance returned to 1999-2000 levels tomorrow, hours would NOT return to 1999-2000 levels.

 

[crusader]

Of course, if you are going to reduce the benefit side, more people will complain about price.

I believe AV was referring to that person the Co. is trying to lure away from the other vacation destinations who isn't as informed as that well travelled Disney guest. Not sure how you would sell them on value here?

What probably occured was an online price quote through the disney website and a quick pass on the trip as soon as that dollar amount came glaring back at you. Coincidentally, I wonder when this option first became available to us?

 

[Another Voice]

Actually Mr. Crusader, I said no such thing.

WDW has never competed on price. Ever. It has always – and intentionally – set its prices with a premium over its competition like cruises and other vacation destinations. But in the past people have been willing to pay that premium because Disney offered a very unique and high quality product.

People don’t feel that way anymore. It is not the case that they hop on Priceline and say “gee, Vegas is fifty bucks cheaper than Disney”. It is that Disney itself no longer has the value. People are looking elsewhere because they are no longer interested in going to WDW.

 

[crusader]

WDW has never competed on price.

They never had to before - they were the only game in town.

It has always – and intentionally – set its prices with a premium over its competition like cruises and other vacation destinations

Because it was unique in what it offerred it could do this. The other vacation destinations did not come with a theme park attached.

But in the past people have been willing to pay that premium because Disney offered a very unique and high quality product.

The past is the operative word here. We are on the third generation of visiting guests now and have a wealth of experience and knowledge at our disposal. The novelty has worn off and the consumer is very much aware of what it is they are being charged for. Price matters.

It is not the case that they hop on Priceline and say “gee, Vegas is fifty bucks cheaper than Disney”.

You'd be surprised to learn how many non-disney travellers will respond this way when weighing options.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

In response to an earlier post...I traditionally have gone in late Jan/early February. Having FW hours reduced to 6PM WOULD be an extreme negative. It removes the option of visiting before/after/during dinner. Essentially most people will now have to get their visit to FW in before they go whereever dinner will be. When they changed it to 7PM I could understand it....but 6PM? They would do better to open at 10AM rather than close an hour early.

The problem with FW isn't that it is educational or not-thrilling. The problem is that an educational exhibit needs to be changed or guests who have finally learned the lesson won't come back.
The Wonders of Life and the Living Seas are excellent examples of this.

 

[d-r]

"They never had to before - they were the only game in town. "

oh come on. in the 70's-early 80s there was only the MK at wdw, and there was seaworld, boardwalk and baseball, circus world, bush gardens, the acquariium in miami, weeki watchi, cape canavral, the beach, cypress gardens and gatorland zoo, and i am sure others i forgot. the onlywater park at wdw was river country and i promise you we didn't go there instead of wet & wild. They are more of the only game in town now than then.

 

[crusader]

d-r:

Those were not theme parks complete with a vacation resort. Only WDW had it all - well packaged and tucked away. There was no real competition to set their pricing against.

They are more of the only game in town now than then.

Not true. Now they have competition.

 

[d-r]

no crusader, I disagree. WDW was MK plus polly, contemporary, and wilderness lodge. There wasn't much there to keep you more than a couple of days. River ountry, discovery island, the luau, thosse sorts of things were good for what, three nights stay?

Now there are four theme parks, two water parks, downtown disney and boardwalk, wild word of sports. You can stay a week and never leave.

It is much more of a resort destination now than then. Then it was more of a one day on a circuit route through Florida. Now they have tried to duplicate everything else in Florida to keep you from going anywhere else, from the manatees in the living sea to the alligators at the land. If you can go to the AK why go to bush gardens? Universal studios? Why you already have a ticket for disney-mgm studios. Heck, if you really HAVE to go to the beach or on a cruise, disney can do that for you, too. There are much more the only show in town now than then.