Pope abolishes Limbo

[auntpolly]

Maybe it wasn't official but it was taught in the Catholic school I went to, for one horrible year.

My favorite was when it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Fridays. I got in such trouble as a child because I did not eat fish. I still remember being yelled at in the confessional because I had a hamburger on a Friday. I never went back to confession after that. I stayed a Catholic a lot longer than I should have because of early brainwashing that I would go to hell if I stopped being a Catholic. But when they changed the meat eating rules, I knew I had made the right choice.

I did give the nuns a hard time, always asking questions in catechism class. In those days kids who went to Catholic school made their first communion in the 2nd grade. If you only went to catechism class you were lucky if they let you do it by the 8th grade. So when I was in the 4th grade my mother made us go to Catholic school so we could make our fist communion, my sisters were in the 5th grade. Every day we got to go to the 2nd grade and learn our catechism. Catechism was a question, followed by an answer that we memorized. Example: Who is God? God is good. Where is God? God is everywhere. After that I went back to the public school and my sisters stayed in the Catholic school. They are still Catholic. I am an atheist. My mother belonged to the Presbyterian church when she died.

Yeah and as a child in protestant church I was told that Catholics weren't christians, non-Christians were going to Hell, that it didn't really matter what you did because God had predestined your fate and there was no free will, that everything happened in the Bible as it said it did and that speaking in tongues was the height of spirituality - none of which I believe anymore.

My point is this - some of that stuff is still taught at my old protestant church and some isn't, but my understanding of God has transformed and I don't harbor any ill will against them.

 

[smartestnumber5]

Ok, former Catholic here. I know it says it was never a formal part of their teaching. But, honestly, my grandmothers and elderly aunts who were hard-core Catholics believed it. There was no doubt they believed it and that their priests were aware they believed it and encouraged it. Babies in my family were not allowed out of the house and contact with alot of people was discouraged until they were baptized. If a baby was born sickly a priest was at the hospital to baptize that baby to prevent theis possibility.

My very large Italian family is also almost entirely Catholic, and I think that the older folks in the family also really did believe in limbo (possibly still do). And I don't think they had any understanding of the difference between "a hypothesis" (as I heard the view on limbo described) and "formal doctrine." I went to Catholic school until 7th grade (got all of the sacraments up until confirmation) and while we were never taught that limbo did exist, we were also never taught that it might not exist, nor were we taught the difference between a hypothesis and formal doctrine. (In fact, I don't understand where the average Catholic gets their information from. No one else in my family had as much Catholic School education as I did, so I tend to be the most informed about the details of Catholicism--and I still really don't know much. I asked them all once about transubstantiation and only one person knew it what it was and when I explained it to the rest of them they thought it was ridiculous.)

I remember my mother explaining baptism to me and the tradition of not bringing the baby out of the house until then so it was safe and healthy and didn't die before its original sin could be wiped away because if died before baptism it would go to limbo. She said she didn't believe that and told me about when she took me to be baptised and asked the priest about it. He told her he couldn't believe in a God who would send babies to limbo. I think my mom took this as him simply rejecting church doctrine--I don't think she realized there wasn't doctrine to begin with--and it made her think very highly of the priest.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Yes. We all have free will, which is precisely why God would not hold an infant or mentally incapacitated person accountable. Those would not have the free will to accept Christ as their savior. Every person makes a choice. If you choose not choose, you've made a choice. An infant would have no choice for him/herself.

Just a thought. Consider for a moment if there truly was no "judgement" of anybody else's words or actions in this world. Is it that what God would want? Is it what you would want? Would it be OK if somebody murdered your children today? Would it be OK if I drank a bottle of whiskey and then drove to the liquor store? How about if I'm your teacher and I feel like lacing my lecture with some obscene words? What do you think about those kinds of actions? If you have any opinion at all, pro or con, you are "judging." The world needs judgement. Without it there would be complete chaos.

I did not make the connection between your initial post and the topic at hand, but you have clarified with the last one. No, I don't believe God would hold someone who did not have the capacity to make a choice accountable for not making that choice either. The Pope apparently agrees with me.

I've heard the "don't you judge murderers?" argument before. It doesn't equate to the situation, and gets hauled into all the discussions about controversial issues. There is a HUGE difference between civil judgement of crimes and personal judgements about other people's personal choices that do not involve criminal activity or any activity that is harmful to others.

I believe that everyone, whether they share my beliefs or not, has spent the same amount of time and energy forming their beliefs as I have forming mine. If I misread the intent of your first post, I apologize.

 

[Crankyshank]

The concept of limbo was created by medieval theologians to give people comfort during a time when infant mortality rates were extremely high. Because at the time people were taught that if you were not baptized, you went to Hell, Church leaders "invented" limbo as a purgatory for unbaptized babies and holy people that existed before Christ. It was never official doctrine and it was intended to give comfort - I don't know why people would begrudge something like that .

Purgatory being abolished isn't going to happen. That's one of the major aspects of Catholicism and it is in fact Church doctrine.

 

[beattyfamily]

The concept of limbo was created by medieval theologians to give people comfort during a time when infant mortality rates were extremely high. Because at the time people were taught that if you were not baptized, you went to Hell, Church leaders "invented" limbo as a purgatory for unbaptized babies and holy people that existed before Christ. It was never official doctrine and it was intended to give comfort - I don't know why people would begrudged something like that .

Purgatory being abolished isn't going to happen. That's one of the major aspects of Catholicism and it is in fact Church doctrine.

 

[IndianaDVCMember]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21595262-663,00.html

For 800 years, thousands upon thousands of poor Catholics have believed that their dead babies had to spend eternity in some kind of no mans land, because God didn't want them. Now they've decided that that's BS and it's been abolished. How crusl is religion.

Just goes to show that they make this stuff up as they go along.

If this isn't anti-Catholicism, then I don't know what is. Shame on you.

 

[JunieJay]

I really wonder how many people who lost babies believed that theory. maybe people who didn't lose babies thought it sounded OK but I'm guessing if you lost your own, you'd see things in the Bible like 1)"Let the little children come to Me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven." and 2) To be absent for the body is to be present with the Lord and you'd get much comfort in thinking/believing your baby was in the arms of Jesus.

The fact there was no official stance on limbo speaks volumes to me. But I am glad that they have officially spoke out about it so that the old theory will be put to rest.

We Catholics only rarely read the bible.

My grandmother's generation absolutely believes in limbo. I waited 4 months to have my youngest child baptized, which horrified her - she was certain he would die in limbo. He was born in December and I wanted to wait until the warmer months to throw a party, hence waiting 4 months. Drove poor Granny crazy.

 

[Chloe'sMom]

As someone who grew up Catholic I can say that I was taught about Limbo. Not that I ever believed it, but I know there are many people in my family who do. In fact many in my family are freaking out because I've yet to have Chloe baptised.

It is my opinion that someone who is raised Catholic and someone who chooses to be Catholic in their adult years typically have very different view points about their religion.

~Amanda

 

[denisem]

Let me get this straight: the macarena is still ok, isn't it? (Sorry, I'm a recovering Catholic who couldn't resist)

 

[Fitswimmer]

As someone who grew up Catholic I can say that I was taught about Limbo. Not that I ever believed it, but I know there are many people in my family who do. In fact many in my family are freaking out because I've yet to have Chloe baptised.

It is my opinion that someone who is raised Catholic and someone who chooses to be Catholic in their adult years typically have very different view points about their religion.

~Amanda

I agree and a LOT has changed since our Grandparents were taught. My DN was never taught about Limbo and would have no clue of it. I didn't read about it until I studied Catholic theology in college. Never heard it in my Catechism classes. If I dug out my old BC, it's probably in there, but we must have skipped over it.

 

[Chloe'sMom]

I agree and a LOT has changed since our Grandparents were taught. My DN was never taught about Limbo and would have no clue of it. I didn't read about it until I studied Catholic theology in college. Never heard it in my Catechism classes. If I dug out my old BC, it's probably in there, but we must have skipped over it.

Exactly if you were raised in a Catholic family, with Catholic beliefs - then your beliefs are going to be in line with them. When you choose to be catholic and learn about the religion as an outsider coming in you really do get a different education. And in many ways - I think truly misunderstand what it is to be a catholic for life.

~Amanda

 

[auntpolly]

We Catholics only rarely read the bible.

(

And as a former protestant I've come to see why. It's pretty complicated, and full of historical and theological references that would be extremely difficult for the lay person to grasp.

I personally like a priest's help with the Bible - that way we aren't reading it and coming up with a bunch of willy nilly interpretations.

 

[marybet]

Yeah and as a child in protestant church I was told that Catholics weren't christians, non-Christians were going to Hell, that it didn't really matter what you did because God had predestined your fate and there was no free will, that everything happened in the Bible as it said it did and that speaking in tongues was the height of spirituality - none of which I believe anymore.

My point is this - some of that stuff is still taught at my old protestant church and some isn't, but my understanding of God has transformed and I don't harbor any ill will against them.

I don't harbor ill will towards Catholics. I was just relating part of the story that ended with my becoming an atheist. We all come to our beliefs in different ways. My sister had twins that lived for only a few hours, the dr. that delivered them baptised them. That was in April of 1972. My son was born in May of 1972 and had some health problems, and the Lutheran minister came to the hospital and baptised him. I may not have believed in Limbo, but I wasn't taking any chances. And I do not beat myself over the head for believing I would go to hell if I stopped being a Catholic. My beliefs have changed, but I do not try to change others beliefs.

 

[Laura]

As someone who grew up Catholic I can say that I was taught about Limbo. Not that I ever believed it, but I know there are many people in my family who do. In fact many in my family are freaking out because I've yet to have Chloe baptised.

My older brother was born 2 months premature; he was baptized in the hospital almost immediately after birth. They had the big baptism bash later when he was out of the hospital.

I never believed in Limbo either, but the doctrine of original sin is still there. So many Catholics still freak out if an infant is not baptized.

It is my opinion that someone who is raised Catholic and someone who chooses to be Catholic in their adult years typically have very different view points about their religion.

~Amanda

That's true; you learn a lot about your religion from your family, from grandparents on down. For example, I can't imagine Latin Masses, but many in my family certainly remember them very well. Being able to walk into any Catholic church in the world and know what was going on must have been pretty cool. To have that kind of depth of experiences to add to the catechism helps you understand your religion better.

 

[JunieJay]

Exactly if you were raised in a Catholic family, with Catholic beliefs - then your beliefs are going to be in line with them. When you choose to be catholic and learn about the religion as an outsider coming in you really do get a different education. And in many ways - I think truly misunderstand what it is to be a catholic for life.

~Amanda

I agree. It becomes more of a culture than a religion.

 

[mirthmaiden]

I've heard the "don't you judge murderers?" argument before. It doesn't equate to the situation, and gets hauled into all the discussions about controversial issues. There is a HUGE difference between civil judgement of crimes and personal judgements about other people's personal choices that do not involve criminal activity or any activity that is harmful to others. God has set the standard, not me. I don't decide for myself what is/isn't wrong or harmful. His word tells me and is absolute, not an a la carte menu that people can pick and choose from. The scriptures tell us that our ways are not His ways, and that our righteousness is as filthy rags to God. We, being sinful beings, could never live up to it which is why we need Jesus.

Romans 6: 23 (NIV)

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Definitely doesn't say the wages of sin is death, unless it's one of those sins that is a personal choice and isn't harmful to others. To God, sin is sin. There is no "ranking" of sin. It's all bad and if you commit one sin, you've committed them all as far as the penalty. There is no escape from the penalty except through Jesus.

Jesus commanded Christians to go into the world to teach.

Matthew 28: 18-20 (NIV)

Then Jesus came to them and said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

How can I or you or anyone teach without stating what is right? Teaching means evaluating everything against the scriptures and pointing out what God's word has to say about it.

I believe that everyone, whether they share my beliefs or not, has spent the same amount of time and energy forming their beliefs as I have forming mine. If I misread the intent of your first post, I apologize.

And I certainly apologize if it seemed like I was targeting you or anyone specifically. I am not targeting any one religion either. I only point out what the scripture says and ask anybody else to do the same when they are discussing the rationale for any Christian religious doctrine or practices.

btw... I am a very new Christian. I was baptized in Dec 2001 at age 36. So, it is never too late to change one's view. Most of the ideas I had before I now realize were completely wrong. Sometimes it just takes someone being willing to explain things differently. The Bible is not a light read. It definitely takes study, must be taken as a whole (not just the parts of it that we agree with), and also must be placed in the proper context. Many people will pull one verse out and use it to justify their position, but it is impossible to know the precise meaning and application of anything without knowing everything the Bible has to say on the topic, and also remembering the context within which it was written. For example, many people believe that the old Jewish laws about food and social customs apply to them because it's in the Bible. Well yes, it is, but if you read on, you'll learn that Christ fullfilled all righteousness and the old law passed away with His death on the cross. Just an example of how well-meaning people may not correctly interpret scripture.

 

[Chloe'sMom]

My older brother was born 2 months premature; he was baptized in the hospital almost immediately after birth. They had the big baptism bash later when he was out of the hospital.

I never believed in Limbo either, but the doctrine of original sin is still there. So many Catholics still freak out if an infant is not baptized.




That's true; you learn a lot about your religion from your family, from grandparents on down. For example, I can't imagine Latin Masses, but many in my family certainly remember them very well. Being able to walk into any Catholic church in the world and know what was going on must have been pretty cool. To have that kind of depth of experiences to add to the catechism helps you understand your religion better.

There are still churches in St. Louis that hold Latin Masses. Usually it is the very early morning mass at 7:30 but when I was an altar girl (giving everyone time to pick themselves off the floor) I had to attend Latin Masses. It was actually kind of cool.

~Amanda

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Uh huh. And if you're implying that I am "judging" you, please indicate exactly where I did that. I did not mention any specific religous denomination nor anybody's name. Didn't even quote anyone. How is asking somebody to defend their statements being judgemental?

This "non-judgement" quip is often used as a defense, but Christians are called upon to evaluate other's actions against the scriptures. We are to be "fruit inspectors" of a sort. We are not to judge other in the sense of pronouncing condemnation upon them. That is God's job, which He has already done through His word. The conflict comes up because the word "judge" can be interpreted 2 ways: to evaluate or to pronounce sentence.

Matthew 7:15-20

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do peole pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

This means that as a Christian I should listen to everything and examine actions of others and compare those things to scripture. That is how I judge (evaluate) what is good and bad.

Very well said.
ITA

 

[Crankyshank]

There are still Churches here that do Latin masses. I'm trying to lector for one of them occasionally so I can practice speaking in Latin for my eventual language competency in Latin for my masters

 

[Fitswimmer]

There are still Churches here that do Latin masses. I'm trying to lector for one of them occasionally so I can practice speaking in Latin for my eventual language competency in Latin for my masters

I go to a Latin Mass nearly every Sunday-and I also go to the English one at my parish a couple days a week. I went once out of pure curiosity and fell in LOVE with the beauty of the chant, the smell of the incense and the poetry of the prayers. (they have Latin-English missals in all the pews) People make a lot of fuss about the Priest not facing you, but he's facing East and we're facing East when the Eucharistic prayers are being said. Don't the Jews and Muslims face East when they pray? The Priest faces us when he's reading the Gospel and preaching on it.