Political: And they call Kerry a waffler ?

[wvrevy]

This is taken from an article written by Ariana Huffington on her website, and I though it was interesting enough to see what you guys that support Dubya thought of it. You can read the whole article here:

Presidential or Pathological ?

Here is the important part for this discussion:

In September 2001, Bush said capturing bin Laden was "our number one priority." By March 2002, he was claiming, "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important."

In October 2001, he was dead-set against the need for a Department of Homeland Security. Seven months later, he thought it was a great idea.

In May 2002, he opposed the creation of the 9/11 Commission. Four months later, he supported it.

During the 2000 campaign, he said that gay marriage was a states' rights issue: "The states can do what they want to do." During the 2004 campaign, he called for a constitutional ban on gay marriage.

Bush supported CO2 caps, then opposed them. He opposed trade tariffs, then he didn't. Then he did again. He was against nation building, then he was OK with it. We'd found WMD, then we hadn't. Saddam was linked to Osama, then he wasn't. Then he was ... sorta. Chalabi was in, then he was out. Way out.

In fact, Bush's entire Iraq misadventure has been one big costly, deadly flip-flop:

We didn't need more troops, then we did. We didn't need more money, then we did. Preemption was a great idea -- on to Syria, Iran and North Korea! Then it wasn't -- hello, diplomacy! Baathists were the bad guys, then Baathists were our buds. We didn't need the U.N., then we did.

Now, to my knowledge, every bit of that is accurate information (though I may have missed something). So here is the questioin: why isn't he being called a hypocrite every time he attacks John Kerry for "flip-flopping" on an issue ?

 

[faithinkarma]

you have hit on one of my pet peeves. How one candidate has been portrayed as a flip flopper, while the other waffles all over the place and no one, not even that vile ole liberal press, makes anything of it. The following is my own list....forgive any duplications

Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.

Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.

Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.

Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.

Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.

Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.

Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.

Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.

Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.

Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.

Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits

Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.

Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.

Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.

Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will

Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.

Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote

Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.

Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

 

[wvrevy]

Hmmm....Where are all the republicans, all the sudden ? I wonder why none of them have answered this thread ?

 

[peachgirl]

Maybe they decided to, but changed their minds....

 

[TerriP]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Hmmm....Where are all the republicans, all the sudden ? I wonder why none of them have answered this thread ?

They were going to reply...but then decided they wouldn't.

 

[TerriP]

Peachgirl...gmta!!

 

[jennyanydots]

 

[jrydberg]

I think it's VERY difficult to portray Bush as a waffler. It's common sense that most of those items listed are not black and white (and in some cases, those issues listed are misleading at best). Most of these are the details. The principle remains the same, just the way to accomplish one's goals changes.

To be fair, I think that can largely be said of Kerry as well. But Kerry has been trying to paint Bush as a flip-flopper quite a bit, so I don't think Kerry has any cause to call Bush hypocritical on those grounds.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by jrydberg
I think it's VERY difficult to portray Bush as a waffler. It's common sense that most of those items listed are not black and white (and in some cases, those issues listed are misleading at best). Most of these are the details. The principle remains the same, just the way to accomplish one's goals changes.

To be fair, I think that can largely be said of Kerry as well. But Kerry has been trying to paint Bush as a flip-flopper quite a bit, so I don't think Kerry has any cause to call Bush hypocritical on those grounds.

Umm...I think we just did Are you saying that those weren't stances he's taken in the last 4 years ?

And where are all the republicans around here ? Wonder why they've all suddenly gone into hiding ?

 

[faithinkarma]

To be fair, I think that can largely be said of Kerry as well. But Kerry has been trying to paint Bush as a flip-flopper quite a bit, so I don't think Kerry has any cause to call Bush hypocritical on those grounds.

To be fair, Bush has spent millions of dollars on ads to portray Kerry as a flip flopper. Quite successful ads I might say. I don't think it is unreasonable to say someone who is guilty of the same thing he accuses others of is behaving like a hypocrite.

 

[jrydberg]

So you'll be calling Kerry hypocritical then? My point is they both change their positions based on relevant information and circumstances. That happens all the time in politics for rational, logical reasons that have nothing to do with changing basic principles.

If you really think those "issues" portray Bush as a waffler, well more power to ya. But I doubt that'll be the way most Americans see it.

 

[faithinkarma]

um...no...I am saying that calling someone a flip flopper while running a campaign about how steadfast one is ( despite obviously not being so ) is hypocritical. Let's face it....many people say they are voting for Bush because he always sticks to what he says. Clearly he does not.

Let me be clear here. I do not think that never changing one's mind should be considered a positive. To me it sounds like arrogance. I would have infinitely more respect for Bush if he could just say, I did/said/thought XYZ, but now that I know more, I have changed my mind. For some unfathomable reason Bush seems to think that to change his mind shows weakness. And he works very hard and protraying himself as one who never veers off course.

 

[jrydberg]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
um...no...I am saying that calling someone a flip flopper while running a campaign about how steadfast one is ( despite obviously not being so ) is hypocritical. Let's face it....many people say they are voting for Bush because he always sticks to what he says. Clearly he does not.

Let me be clear here. I do not think that never changing one's mind should be considered a positive. To me it sounds like arrogance. I would have infinitely more respect for Bush if he could just say, I did/said/thought XYZ, but now that I know more, I have changed my mind. For some unfathomable reason Bush seems to think that to change his mind shows weakness. And he works very hard and protraying himself as one who never veers off course.

So you are calling Kerry a hypocrite That's exactly the approach Kerry has been taking recently (I don't deny that Bush has done so for some time, but if you call one a hypocrite, kinda hard not to call the other one a hypocrite as well).

Let me be equally clear. I don't think either of them is a "flip-flopper." I just happen to disagree with Kerry's fundamental positions. Frankly, just about anyone in public office can be portrayed as a waffler. I just think it's unfair to single out President Bush for such behavior when Kerry does the exact same thing. Why is it acceptable in one case but hypocritical in another?

 

[faithinkarma]

So you are calling Kerry a hypocrite That's exactly the approach Kerry has been taking recently (I don't deny that Bush has done so for some time, but if you call one a hypocrite, kinda hard not to call the other one a hypocrite as well).

Sorry, I disagree. And I am not trying to be difficult here. let me explain my reasoning. On the most effective accusation of flip flopping, Kerry gave an answer that certainly satisfied me:

“This was the hardest vote I have ever had to cast in my entire career,” Kerry said. “I voted for the resolution to get the inspectors in there, period. Remember, for seven and a half years we were destroying weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In fact, we found more stuff there than we thought we would. After that came those four years when there was no intelligence available about what was happening over there. I believed we needed to get the weapons inspectors back in. I believed Bush needed this resolution in order to get the U.N. to put the inspectors back in there. The only way to get the inspectors back in was to present Bush with the ability to threaten force legitimately. That’s what I voted for.”

“The way Powell, Eagleberger, Scowcroft, and the others were talking at the time,” continued Kerry, “I felt confident that Bush would work with the international community. I took the President at his word. We were told that any course would lead through the United Nations, and that war would be an absolute last resort. Many people I am close with, both Democrats and Republicans, who are also close to Bush told me unequivocally that no decisions had been made about the course of action. Bush hadn’t yet been hijacked by Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney and that whole crew. Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You’re damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake.”




On the other hand, a significant part of the Bush campaign has been to paint him as one who never waivers once a decision has been made. This too has been most effective, as witnessed by my father-in-law who says he is voting for Bush because once Bush says something he never backtracks.

From the examples given at the beginning of this thread, clearly the president changes his mind on issues frequently. To continue to deny this, while accusing the other side of doing it is hypocrisy in my book.

 

[jrydberg]

Sorry, but I disagree that the examples given in the previous post show that Bush is waffling. I also don't believe Kerry has been waffling. That's why you say it's hypocrisy and I say it's just political posturing.

Bottom line, I don't think the two can be separated on this... either they're both wafflers or they're both not wafflers, IMO. Obviously I'm not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine, so I'll leave it at that

 

[faithinkarma]

Whether or not they are both wafflers is not the issue. The issue is that one of them claims he NEVER wafffles. Let's say they both waffle the exact same number of times to the exact same degree...how does that make them both hypocrites? Surely it just makes them wafflers?

Suppose you and I both smoke when no one is looking. We accuse each other of smoking. You say, yes, you smoked, and try to explain why. But, while accusing you, I maintain that I never smoke. Am I not the hypocrite?

 

[jrydberg]

Kerry claims he doesn't waffle as well... I spent most of my morning drive listening to Kerry explain that he doesn't waffle. Same thing.

 

[faithinkarma]

OK..I give

 

[Elwood Blues]

**** YAWN ****

 

[Elwood Blues]

“The president may be too busy to talk to you,” Kerry told the partisan crowd, “but I have news for you:

"I'm too busy campaigning to do my job back in Washington"