Points for tickets

[dianeschlicht]

A total Rip-Off, perhaps but a choice from money I've already banked vs. money I now have to put out to places I've already ready seen and would like to see again but not my top priority.

If you have so many extra points that you want to use them for tickets, then I would say you have more points than you need. Maybe you need fewer points and don't need to be paying as much in maintenance as you do now. I see no value in using points and paying maintenance fees on points that you are only going to use for tickets.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Each point costs so much in MF....I don't see the value in offering a point purchase of WDW tickets.

 

[bostontim]

Just a question...how was the accounting done when in the beginning, DVC membership included a couple of annual passes? Could they revisit that model?

 

[dianeschlicht]

Just a question...how was the accounting done when in the beginning, DVC membership included a couple of annual passes? Could they revisit that model?

Those were a sales perk. They gave the free passes (not annual passes) to encourage people to buy.

 

[Chuck S]

Just a question...how was the accounting done when in the beginning, DVC membership included a couple of annual passes? Could they revisit that model?

As Diane said, the park pass program was a sales incentive. Today they use incentives like fee cruises, developers points, and $ per point discounts. When we purchased, the incentive happened to be Length of Stay passes for 1/2 the occupancy limit for the room. If you stayed in a studio or 1 bedroom, we received 2 passes, if in a two bedroom, 4 passes, and a Grand Villa stay received 6 passes. This was for stays through 1999.

That incentive ended sometime in 1996, so folks that purchased between 1996 and 1999 did not receive passes. I think the next incentive was to apply the cost of your current Disney stay to the purchase price for those that purchased DVC while staying onsite with a cash reservation.


It was financed by the sales division, not dues, just as the cruises are today.

 

[perdidobay]

Points for tickets is an option I would never take advantage of. I only have 400 points and it would probably take that many for 2 annual passes.

For now, we have the Disney Visa that we use to charge our everyday purchases and some recurring bills like utilities and phone bills. We pay off the balance every month. It gives us enough Disney Reward points for two premium annual passes every year. No annual fee + no interest charges = happy me!

 

[px57chevy]

In order for that to work, more rooms would have to go to CRO to rent for cash to pay for the tickets. DVC already is having difficulty with the cash rooms that are used for exchanges, they are not being filled. Then there would be more complaints regarding why are rooms available for cash and not for points.

I don't think legally they could do it because there is a clause in the contract that says points can only be used for accomodations.

If this is true, then I wish they would turn them back over for points. It stinks when you try to plan a last minute trip and nothing is available for points but there is for $$$ at the same resort.

 

[tjkraz]

If you have so many extra points that you want to use them for tickets, then I would say you have more points than you need. Maybe you need fewer points and don't need to be paying as much in maintenance as you do now. I see no value in using points and paying maintenance fees on points that you are only going to use for tickets.

Agree.

The point I was trying to make is that the value of trades is so low that you barely save anything over the annual dues paid on those points.

When you use points for a cruise, you only get about $7 worth of value for each point redeemed. But dues for most resorts are now in the $4.50 to $5.50 range. Vero is over $6 per point.

Using that $7 figure, if you wanted to get $1000 worth of park tickets using points, the "cost" would probably be in the neighborhood of 143 points.

Thing is, if you own at the Beach Club, those 143 points are costing you $755 in dues for 2011. If you use BWV points, the cost is $780. Vero points would be $969.

In other words, given the value that DVC has historically assigned to such things, best case scenario has you saving a couple hundred bucks per year--getting $1000 worth of tickets for around $700-800 for most resorts.

Better to rent the excess points yourself for $10+ each.

Or, as Diane suggested, just sell off the excess points. 143 points sold at just $50 per point would yield you around $6500 after commission. That's a much better return on the points than saving $200-300 per year on tickets.

 

[tjkraz]

If this is true, then I wish they would turn them back over for points. It stinks when you try to plan a last minute trip and nothing is available for points but there is for $$$ at the same resort.

If CRO gave back rooms at some point, it would only mean that they are entitled to even more down the road. Ultimately they would end up cherry-picking only villas and dates with the absolute highest cash demand. And members would suffer for it.

Yes, I imagine it's frustrating to see the cash room sitting out there unbooked. But you simply have to realize that a member IS "using" the room. It just so happens that the member chose to trade it for some non-DVC option.

 

[Greysword]

I agree with Mert, and I would premise offering WDW (or only the Premium Annual Pass for both parks) for points would not cause any additional issues (positive or negative) beyond those for booking Disney Collection room.

Although we can agree using points for anything beyond DVC resorts is an inefficient use of the points, the option does exist. In fact, we can get a room in any of the moderate (and non-DVC deluxe) resorts for an exorbitant cost for the accommodations offered. Adding park tickets would be the equivalent, but would likely be a more useful option for members than the moderate resort offerings.

I appreciate Tim's financial breakdown of the option, as it actually bolsters the case for using points to purchase WDW annual passes. Personally, I would be happy is the point cost (annual maintenance) broke even with a cash outlay (I excluded the initial purchase price, since it is a sunk cost whether it is used for a DVC room, cruise line, or annual passes). If I would even save $100 over using cash each year, it makes using points a more economical option (as if someone gave me an additional $100 off coupon).

The biggest concern for Disney isn't the economic viability for the member, since we already have non-viable options in the Disney collection. Instead, the financial impact this option would have on WDW Resort will determine whether Disney will try it and keep it in place over a longer period of time. At current AP prices ($425 DVC mbr Adult, $384 DVC mbr Child):

Using Tim's $7/point
- 61 Points/Adult
- 55 Points/Child
- family of four (3 Adults (10+) and 1 Child) = 237 points

At $10/point
- 43 Points/Adult
- 38 Point/Child
- family of four (3 Adults (10+) and 1 Child) = 166 points

Of course, renewals would be a lower point cost due to lower prices.

Would the demand be enough (or too high) to make the program sustainable? It may sell more points, as the guides could create a total package for the family and entice them to buy 400 points instead of just 200.

Personally, I would like to have the option added to the Disney Collection. If I was also charged the $95 fee, it would not be economically viable for my family. If they didn't, then it would be worth considering and even trying. It certainly wouldn't be for everyone, but why not offer the option at least to test demand?

- Chris

Edit: Oh, and for the record, the $95 fee does not effect Disneyland hotels, which is important to note, especially if they offered the Premium AP (for both parks).

 

[tjkraz]

I appreciate Tim's financial breakdown of the option, as it actually bolsters the case for using points to purchase WDW annual passes. Personally, I would be happy is the point cost (annual maintenance) broke even with a cash outlay (I excluded the initial purchase price, since it is a sunk cost whether it is used for a DVC room, cruise line, or annual passes). If I would even save $100 over using cash each year, it makes using points a more economical option (as if someone gave me an additional $100 off coupon).

I can't imagine why you would exclude any accounting for the initial investment. When a member spends over $25,000 to acquire 237 points at today's prices, that investment should be given due consideration.

The logical approach is to look at the (likely) opportunity cost of using points for tickets. To a member with excess points, renting or even selling would yield dramatically more favorable results, just to name two options.

Would the demand be enough (or too high) to make the program sustainable? It may sell more points, as the guides could create a total package for the family and entice them to buy 400 points instead of just 200.

But what you're forgetting is that the current trading programs represent a partnership between DVC and Central Reservations. Given the existence of DVC and the relative ease of renting points, cash demand for villa rooms is not exactly a growth market. Unless CRO's cash villa sales keeps pace with a growth in the number of points used for any form of trade, the system is not sustainable.

In other words, it doesn't really matter how popular such a program would be if CRO is unable to sell the rooms represented by these reacquired points. And CRO can only do so much in terms of discounting given their desire to maintain distinct tiered prices with their other 25,000 rooms.

Personally I really don't care if DVC did something like this. I can guarantee that the financial terms would be ridiculously lopsided and I would never use it. But, there's one born every minute...

 

[Greysword]

The logical approach is to look at the (likely) opportunity cost of using points for tickets. To a member with excess points, renting or even selling would yield dramatically more favorable results, just to name two options.

But what you're forgetting is that the current trading programs represent a partnership between DVC and Central Reservations. Given the existence of DVC and the relative ease of renting points, cash demand for villa rooms is not exactly a growth market. Unless CRO's cash villa sales keeps pace with a growth in the number of points used for any form of trade, the system is not sustainable.

In other words, it doesn't really matter how popular such a program would be if CRO is unable to sell the rooms represented by these reacquired points. And CRO can only do so much in terms of discounting given their desire to maintain distinct tiered prices with their other 25,000 rooms.

The latter statement sounds like a portent of the demise of the Disney Collection, especially the cruise and Disneyland options, since those are likely the most popular.

As for the opportunity costs, I will agree that selling excess points would be the best option overall. As for renting, I do not plan on renting my excess points, as I do not want the responsibility nor the time consumption required. Honestly, I'll just let my points expire instead, as I don't have the trust for others that is required to rent my points, and I'd rather pay for this piece of mind then receive the income (which is likely taxable, too).

That said, I think the numbers you and I ran clearly indicate the costs involved and bring the idea from theory to a hard fiscal reality. In the end, the best option (as expressed in a previous thread) may be to allow the purchase of annual passes (and renewals) on a no interest monthly payment plan along with dues.

- Chris

 

[TisBit]

I have to agree with the posters that have expressed sincere doubt on what points for passes would benefit the membership. I would hate to see a specific points for passes program....but there are ways that DVC could pull something off to generate additional revenue while blurring the edges of the financial part of the program.

Two options I could see is an option to have a higher point costs for a villa which included things like tix/dining plan. Say a studio were to cost 15 points a night...a studio with dp/tix would cost 25 or some such formula. You cannot exchange points for passes, but you can upgrade your villa to include such things.

But, the most logical that I could see would be programs I have seen with other timeshares/resorts. It would be more like an all inclusive package that you purchase to go with our contracts. The price point would be based on the contract size...so say you have a 100 point contract you could purchase this addition to your contract for X (probably a couple of grand) number of dollars. This addition will cover a % cost off tickets (maybe 25% or something similar) and dining plans for the life of the contract. It would be a quick way to generate some cash and make it look like they have benefits, etc. I could also see this playing into the direct vs resale differential, blah blah blah

This would still infuse cash into resorts/ticketing and over the life of the contract the members would get these perks that could save them money.

 

[323sarg]

I would love to see an all inclusive pouts option

 

[Muushka]

Happy Birthday Oshawa! We hope it's a happy one!!

 

[hakepb]

I would love to see an all inclusive pouts option

Isn't that part of 'Dis membership

 

[Muushka]

Happy Birthday Oshawa! We hope it's a happy one!!

Oh dear. Wrong thread....pardon me

 

[Goofy DVC]

How about a program where you could buy a 5 year annual pass at a discounted rate. Since the purpose of any of these ideas is to save money and for Disney to keep folks on property so that they spend more money this idea may in a bizarre way work. I shell out the cash for a 5 year annual pass that is discounted at least 20% so I get 1 year "free". Now I lay out that money but don't need to save for passes for the next 5 years. Like most consumers I don't bank that money each year, I spend it on vacation on Disney property. Imagine the 5 year plans of some DVC addicted people like ourselves. This is exactly what we did when we purchased in 93. We received some LOS passes based on the accommodations. We then figured that we don't need that money for tickets we can use it for dining or souvenirs. When the passes stopped in 99, then we said, okay let's go but not visit the parks as much and let's head off property. If Disney would have offered a long term pass then I would have jumped on it and in the long run Disney would have gotten more of my cash instead of Sea World and others. Just a crazy thought.

 

[DebbieB]

There actually was a 5 year ticket plan for members about 10 years ago. You paid a flat amount and got 5 day passes each year for your choice of 4 of the 5 years. It bombed.

 

[lilpooh108]

However, discounted hopper tickets would also be a great perk.

Totally agree. People like me can't get much use out of an AP. We're from the West Coast and the one year we got an AP, we got 4 trips out of it but the flight costs were just crazy.

We have the non-expiring 10 day now but a small DVC discount on that would be nice.