Originally posted by kbeverina
And here again is a perfect example of what I was talking about. This implies that disagreeing with someone makes the other person afraid to post, that it censors the other person, that it takes away their right to express an opinion. It doesn't do any of that.
You're absolutely right! No one, not myself included, said that belittling them by calling them "ignorant", "********", "wrong" and anything else took away their
right to voice their opinion, just that, it seemed to me, that it took away their enthusiasm to post or voice an opinion. What I said was that I hope they continue to voice their opinion without being afraid to do so, not any thing about their rights to do so. I guess I should have said that I hope they continue to post with the same enthusiasm they have in the past, without being afraid to do so?
But implying that it does makes people afraid to disagree because they don't want to be characterized as someone who doesn't believe everyone has a right to their own opinion.
I wasn't implying that their rights were being stiffled or taken away, I'm sorry if you felt that way. I was talking about loosing their enthusiasm to or having a fear to post, not their right to post. I'm saying the same exact thing you are about posting, just from the other side of the coin.
Making people afraid to disagree for fear of being mischaracterized is different than being afraid to post an opinion because someone might disagree with you. It's the former that's more a form of discouraging expression of personal opinion, not the latter.
Exactly! That's my point exactly! I think being called "ignorant", "********", "wrong" and other things that I've seen on this particular thread is mischaracterizing people.
How many times do we see someone state an opinion, someone else disagree, and the first person says, "I'm entitled to my opinion!" Of course you are. And that is relevant...how? Didn't say you weren't entitled to have an opinion. Said I didn't agree with your opinion and this is why.
That would be great if that happened on this thread, but it didn't, not from my point of view anyway.
If this is referring to my post, I don't think I said anyone should have to prove anything. I said that if someone disagrees with you, it's better to prove them wrong than get mad at them for disagreeing. If you state an opinion and someone disagrees, it's natural for them to ask you why you think the way you do, what are you basing your opinion on? That's not in any way telling you that you can't have your own opinion.
No, it wasn't directed at your post, honestly. It was directed at all the posts that were questioning the teens.
Usually those who have trouble expressing why they hold a certain opinion are the ones who have that opinion based on gut reaction, standard party lines, what they've been told should be their opinion by a group they're active in, etc.
Well here may be where we have to agree to disagree. I don't see anything wrong with an opinion based on gut reaction to violence, war, killing, murder (suicide bombing), unrest in the world, etc. I also believe that individuals, no matter what party they belong to, no matter what group their active with, can form their own opinions, just as anyone else has.
If their reasons are shown to be inconsistent, unsubstantiated, outright false--they shouldn't get mad and revert back to "I'm entitled to my opinion!"
You used a key word here, reasons. The teens didn't repost their reasons for their opinions here, on this board, and they told everyone why. They had already been dismissed as "ignorant" and " a few ******** protestors". I really didn't see any disagreement with their reasons, since none were posted.
If you make a statement that Saddam needed to go, but war wasn't the way, it's perfectly natural for anyone to ask what other way there was in this case.
Yes it is if you want to see a person's perspective on the war or if you want to argue their point of view. That's a valid point. But I look at this particular thread, not any other thread, just this one, from the perspective of an older woman listening and watching older and younger people interact. What I saw here was a group of adults telling teens to come up with a solution to a global problem or that their opinions were wrong. And understand, that I don't mean to demean or imply (I want it to be perfectly clear that I am not implying anything!)with the statement that I'm about to make, that anyone doesn't have the right to voice their opinion but ---- I didn't like to see adults dismiss a child or children (sorry teens, I know you hate that word) the way they were dismissed. I felt I had to stand up for them and make sure that they understood that not all adults feel the way that others do. (Not that they care or have even read this thread since they were first here.
)
If there was a way to get Saddam out and stop the murder and torture of innocent Iraqi men, women and children without going to war--why in the world would anyone choose war?
That's a question that can be debated for hours and hours and should probably be asked on the debate board.
It's natural to want to know what other way. If you make a statement like that, but can't think of another way--I think you really need to ask yourself if your statement has any basis in reality. Has that statement really been thought out or is it just a standard reply? If you can't immediately answer when someone questions that statement--you shouldn't get mad, you should ask yourself why you can't think of another way.
You have to re-read what she said. She said she has reasons for not going into this war, not that war isn't the solution to getting SH out.
No one asked her to come up with an acceptable solution for everyone as to what to do about Saddam just out of the blue. She made a statement that there was an acceptable solution other than war to getting rid of Saddam. It's perfectly logical for people to ask, "Well what the heck was it then?" If she can't think of one, maybe it's not because she's young, maybe it's because there wasn't one.
Well no, this isn't correct. You can go back and read pages 1 and 2. She said, and I quote, word for word: "Yes I saw those images and I agree that Saddam needed to go but I dont think war was the way. I won't waste my energy typing the reasons why again because you think they're ignorant." and then after being asked what her solution was, she said, word for word, "I actually said I am not going to type the reasons why I dont think we should have gone to war, not I have a solution other than war."
I'm a peacenik, too. I don't care what Amnesty International says in public, I know plenty of members, used to be a member myself, and privately they all wanted this military action, too. Because they know in excruciating detail what went on in that country and there are some things that you hear and you wonder if you'll ever have peace in your own mind again.
Again I think another debate about why we are in the war and where do we stop and why just Iraq when it's happening all over the world and on and on. I think I stated before, but in case I didn't, I will now, I'm not on this thread to debate the politics of this conflict nor express my feelings or opinion of it, just that the way I saw a group of teens or a single teen being treated made me want to speak out for them, not their rights, but them as young women.
This will probably be my last post on this board because I truly don't want to offend anyone and I truly don't like to see people be offended. And I want to be perfectly clear that everyone has has the right to say what they want, offensive or not, and you have the right to think something is offensive or not, I'm not saying anything differently. Oh, and that goes for those who support the war and those who don't support the war!
It's not a party issue for me, it's not a rights issue for me, it's not a political issue for me, it's a human issue. It took me about 1 1/2 hours to write this, in order to try not to offend anyone. I just don't have that kind of time to spend on one post or thread!
With that, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Truly, peace and love to all, all over the world!
