Point and Laugh At Protestors

[EltonJohn]

Originally posted by SDAngel101
If you read the thread that we had on the TB you would see that anyone who was against the war were told that the reasons behind their beliefs were false. How can you say that something is false when you can see it with your own eyes? If Suzi and Emma see innocent people dying (not personally, but on TV), then they can believe whatever they want to. People have different views, why can't we just leave it at that and not try to persuade them into believing something they don't?

You are a rare find, a teenager with a bit of wisdom

Pax

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by SDAngel101
If you read the thread that we had on the TB you would see that anyone who was against the war were told that the reasons behind their beliefs were false. How can you say that something is false when you can see it with your own eyes? If Suzi and Emma see innocent people dying (not personally, but on TV), then they can believe whatever they want to. People have different views, why can't we just leave it at that and not try to persuade them into believing something they don't?

I guess that's how you explain these people from www.democraticunderground.com.

(from rnw.com)

But, not everyone is happy. It seems that there are quite a few people at the Democratic Underground who think it was all staged =D Now not everybody at the DU bought into this, but here are comments from just a few who did...

TimesArrow: "Is this staged? Why are our troops mingling with the Iraqis? Why don't our troops suspect a suicide bomber or something? I sure wouldn't let my guard down unless I knew they were our troops!"

freddie57: "It's on every news channel I surfed them all but faux, and it was the same shot, maybe it is staged."

alcuno: "CIA - I know this script. All the money we've paid out for "jubilation."

Terwilliger: "this entire thing is a PR event. The US grabbed a bunch of Iraqis, gave them money or somesuch, and told them to go tear down the statue. It's all really quite pathetic."

JCMach1: "More staged than a Bush photo-op. There was clearly a security perimeter around the event. All of the participants were male -- with a few children sprinkled in. The people were clearly either manipulated or paid to participate.

There were almost as many press as 'demonstrators.'

CNN was actually fairly balanced during this because Ms. Amanpour was doing part of the coverage. I switched to MSNBC and nearly lost my lunch.

Someone needs to get Peter Arnett to find out how much the CIA paid these people."

Here is another thread on the same subject...

dissenter: "Obviously staged... because they want to "wrap up" the war coverage...and make it fade from the US TV tubes...This invasion is OVER..."

mrbill: "there's a 1000 statues of saddam in baghdad.....
Why that one? Those demonstrators were definately on somebody's payroll."

One of the other DU posters summed all this up

vincent_vega: "Boy the dissapointment here is palpable. I know you were all hoping for an Urban bloodbath of a fight to gloat over."

 

[Rose_Greenthumb]

Originally posted by Darian
Originally posted by Rose_Greenthumb
"Oh so Suzi, Amy and I are ignorant because we have an opinion which differs to yours?

I wouldn't say you are ignorant because your opinion differs from that of Wick, its because your opinion is wrong.

Be it wrong or right, I am entitled to my opinion.

 

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by Rose_Greenthumb
Be it wrong or right, I am entitled to my opinion.

Of course you are, just as we are to our opinion that you are wrong.

 

[glo]

Stepping in to warn people that we are fighting in Iraq so that people have the same freedoms as we do. One of those being the freedom of speech and free thought. Everyone is entitled to their opinions here, and I expect there to be a civil and mature conversation. Do not let it deteriorate to a 3rd grade, I am right you are wrong, and I am going to stick my fingers in my ears and yell loudly school yard argument. Remeber what we are fighting for....


Please, rememeber that.

 

[betz]

Originally posted by glo
Stepping in to warn people that we are fighting in Iraq so that people have the same freedoms as we do. Remeber what we are fighting for....
Please, rememeber that.

I truly thought the reason for this aggression is to find and Destroy Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yes we may be disposing of Saddams regime while looking for these weapons and bringing change, but our true intent is to find and destroy WMD.

A transcript of George Bush's war ultimatum speech from the Cross Hall in the White House
Tuesday March 18, 2003

My fellow citizens, events in Iraq have now reached the final days of decision. For more than a decade, the United States and other nations have pursued patient and honorable efforts to disarm the Iraqi regime without war. That regime pledged to reveal and destroy all its weapons of mass destruction as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War in 1991.

Since then, the world has engaged in 12 years of diplomacy. We have passed more than a dozen resolutions in the United Nations Security Council. We have sent hundreds of weapons inspectors to oversee the disarmament of Iraq. Our good faith has not been returned.

The Iraqi regime has used diplomacy as a ploy to gain time and advantage. It has uniformly defied Security Council resolutions demanding full disarmament. Over the years, U.N. weapon inspectors have been threatened by Iraqi officials, electronically bugged, and systematically deceived. Peaceful efforts to disarm the Iraqi regime have failed again and again -- because we are not dealing with peaceful men.

Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq's neighbors and against Iraq's people.

 

[glo]

Yes, Betz, I agree that this is the true reason we went in, but the freedom of the Iraqi people is also something that they are fighting for. Still, it stands that it is expected that people have a right to their opinion, and should be aloowed to state it without being told their opinion is wrong. Again, it is how one sees things...

 

[DawnCt]

Originally posted by Rose_Greenthumb


Yes I saw those images and I agree that Saddam needed to go but I dont think war was the way. I won't waste my energy typing the reasons why again because you think they're ignorant.

If war wasn't the way, what would be your solution?

 

[PigSoldier]

Originally posted by Darian
I wouldn't say you are ignorant because your opinion differs from that of Wick, its because your opinion is wrong.

I disagree with military action for religious reasons, and because I believe that murdering even one innocent person for the sake of others is wrong. I don't see why I'm expected to change my opinions, simply because we're winning the war, nor why this makes my entire system of beliefs wrong, or ignorant.

Easy to say "War is not the answer" -- let's see YOU come up with a solution.

Of course, the fact that a 14 year old girl couldn't come up with a solution to this war singlehandedly must mean that we're doing the right thing.

 

[sha_lyn]

I disagree with military action for religious reasons, and because I believe that murdering even one innocent person for the sake of others is wrong. I don't see why I'm expected to change my opinions, simply because we're winning the war, nor why this makes my entire system of beliefs wrong, or ignorant.

So it ok to sit back and watch Saddam murder millions of his own people, inprison children, stock pile the UNICEF food in his son's home while "his" people" starve? War is the lesser of 2 evils, the greater evil being Saddam and his reign of terror.

 

[dmadman43]

I disagree with military action for religious reasons, and because I believe that murdering even one innocent person for the sake of others is wrong. I don't see why I'm expected to change my opinions, simply because we're winning the war, nor why this makes my entire system of beliefs wrong, or ignorant.

Being a religous person I would think you would understand the differences between murder and killing that happens during war. The scriptures are very clear on this distinction. Nothing that our military did during this campaign, by all reports I've seen, could remotely be classified as murder. I suggest re-reading your scriptures to get a clear distinction between war and murder. Now what Saddam did to his own people...that, based on all reports, is, indeed, murder.

I can understand an oppostion to violence based on some random scripture, but to suggest that the death of civilians during a war is murder is, IMHO, really over the top.

 

[Saffron]

Rose-greenthumb and all the other teens who are able to think for yourselves and have opinions of your own about this war and want to voice them, whether you support the war or not, please continue to do so. Opinions are never WRONG! If they were, then every single person on this board would be wrong, no matter what their beliefs and opinions are. As much as you don't like being told your opinions are wrong, I'm sure others wouldn't like it either. Opinions are just that. They're not a statement of fact, which can be disputed. Opinions are a judgement formed in the mind about a particular subject. They can never be wrong. Ever. Others may not like what you voice, but that doesn't mean that you're wrong, no matter what side of issue you stand on. Nor does it mean you're ignorant.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by dmadman43
Being a religous person I would think you would understand the differences between murder and killing that happens during war. The scriptures are very clear on this distinction. Nothing that our military did during this campaign, by all reports I've seen, could remotely be classified as murder. I suggest re-reading your scriptures to get a clear distinction between war and murder. Now what Saddam did to his own people...that, based on all reports, is, indeed, murder.

I can understand an oppostion to violence based on some random scripture, but to suggest that the death of civilians during a war is murder is, IMHO, really over the top.

I agree 100% - the only murders that I know of are the ones committed by the Iraqis.

Nor does it mean you're ignorant.

Having a particular opinon does not make one ignorant, though there are obviously cases where opinions are formed based on ignorance of facts. IMO, an example would be the statement about Americans "murdering" civilians.

 

[kbeverina]

I think it's great that teens are debating politics--just keep in mind that you have a lot in common with the teens who are disagreeing with you by virtue of their interest in politics and what's going on in the world. That alone makes you more alike than many other teens who might agree with you, but don't have an interest in world affairs or watching the news or reading the newspaper. My husband and I disagree on many issues, including military action in Iraq, but our general interest in politics and other things overrides our disagreement over any individual issue. In fact, we disagree on some of the hottest topics out there, but I have more in common with him than someone who might agree with me but has no general interest in things that I'm interested in. I'd rather spend time with someone who disagrees with me than with someone who has no interest at all.

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

You're not entitled to not hear that someone else thinks you're wrong or that they disagree with you. If your opinion is challenged, that is not the same as being told you don't have the right to have an opinion.

If you put your opinion out there, you have to expect that not everyone will agree with you. If you put your opinion out there, you shouldn't be mad that someone doesn't agree with you or that someone asks you why you feel the way you do or that someone tells you that you're basing your opinion on false assumptions. You can choose to prove you're right or ask them to prove you're wrong. But getting mad at someone for disagreeing with you is effectively doing to that person what you accuse that person of doing to you--trying to silence your opinion.

If you truly just want to be able to state your opinion without defending it or your reasons, then do that. Don't respond when someone challenges it or disagrees with it. What's all too frequent is someone wanting to state opinion and rather than defend it when someone disagrees, they use the tactic of making it seem that the person who disagrees is not allowing them to have their own opinion. And if that prevents people from disagreeing for fear of being painted as a First-Amendment-squasher, it's a passive-aggressive means of preventing others from expressing an opinion that disagrees.

I haven't read the threads in question, but I do know my feelings as a teen would be much different than they are now. My feelings in my early 20s would be much different than they are now. If you are completely comfortable with what you believe, it won't bother you that someone disagrees with you, no matter how strenuously. You won't feel defensive or angry. If you can get past those feelings when someone disagrees with you, you'll be more open to the points they're trying to make. It may not change your mind, but it can never be more harmful to have more facts and hear what others have to say on the issue. If someone tells you that you don't know what you're talking about, prove them wrong. Do some research, get some facts, but be careful where you're getting your facts, and challenge them to do the same.

 

[nativetxn]

Well said, Kbev

 

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

Going to war saved lives. If we didn't do this, we would be in fact killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis by keeping Saddam's regime in power. There was no solution other than war, we tried for 12 years, nothing worked. We have the blood of Iraqis killed by Saddam on our hands already because we did not act soon enough to stop Saddam. I blame the first Bush for not finishing the job, and Clinton for sitting on this problem for 8 years.

While the concept of war may sound bad, in fact it can be a great thing. If not for war, there may not be any Jewish people in Europe and Hitler's disciples would be still be in power. Without war slavery would have gone on many decades past the 1860's in America. Without war, Iraqis would have been opressed and subject to slaughter and genocide under the Saddam regime, and America and American allies would be subject to chemical/biological weapons threats posed by his regime.

To me it seems selfish for Americans to think they should have freedom and that the Iraqi people shouldn't.

And for us to say this war wasn't worth it? Just see what the Iraqi people are saying/doing, ask any Iraqi exile if this was worth it.

God Bless America, we are a courageous nation that has just liberated another nation.

 

[Darian]

"Opinions are a judgement formed in the mind about a particular subject. They can never be wrong. Ever. "

Oh Saffron...

Say it ain't so. There are people today who have the opinion that the world is actually flat... and that no one has ever walked on the moon. Would you actually say those opinions "can never be wrong, ever?"

The Nazis were very sincere in their belief that people of Jewish descent were responsible for most of the world's problems. They believed most sincerely that exterminating them all would make the world better, and that they were doing something moral and good by murdering millions of people. Surely you could agree that Adolph Hitler's opinion about Jews was wrong?

Post Modernism tells us that there is no absolute truth... its all relative and subject to personal interpretation and point of view. Just remember not to fly on an airplane designed by someone who embraces this sort of world view.

I don't say any of this to be hostile, in fact I appreciate your posts and hope you continue to speak your mind. I encourage you to examine the world view you have been given and try to see the final outcome of a world where everyone's opinions - no matter how contradictory - are all equally correct. If nothing is false, nothing is true.

Darian

 

[dmadman43]

Opinions are a judgement formed in the mind about a particular subject. They can never be wrong. Ever.

So, if I have an opinion that the earth is flat; that the Sun revolves around the Earth; that we did not land on the moon, am I right or wrong?

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by PigSoldier
And this is referring to the time you consistently missed everyone's point over 100 pages, and told us we weren't looking at the facts because we didn't watch Fox News? There was an awful lot of frustration at other people's ignorance on that thread.



Mostly remorse at the death of thousands of people. I do think the liberation of Iraq is a wonderful thing, but I still don't think a war on Iraq was the right thing to do.



I also saw images of dying children, who'd lost all their families, and innocent people who'd had their homes destroyed. They didn't appear to me celebrating too much.



Yes, because that's a valid point that brings much to the debate.

Eh.... you're right, there's nothing to debate, it's been done to death, and I'm sure no one needed to hear that on our 'victory day'. But to be called ignorant by someone whose main form of argument is twisting other people's words bothered me. Carry on.

Freedom does not come for free.

Would you have preferred Iraq to stay the way it was?

Or perhaps you would still like to be under British Colonial rule?

And even though liberation wasn't the primary mission, it was (and will be) a wonderful thing.

Don't get me wrong, I feel terrible about the loss of most of those that lost their lives, I feel much better about what was accomplished and that the loss of INNOCENT lives was so low.

There were estimates by "experts" (?) that said there could be up to 500,000 INNOCENT lives lost. I don't think it was 500.

Still, 500 is a lot, but when put into context, it was a very small amount.

 

[Saffron]

Darian, point well taken.

There are certainly points of view or opinions I don't agree with and that I consider to be wrong. Racism, genicide, bigotry, child pornography, etc. etc.

What I was trying to do, is stand up for a young woman or a group of young women/teenagers, who were having a discussion on the Teen Board that got brought over here, where they felt they had to come to defend their opinions on this particular conflict. I wanted them to know that I for one hope they continue to voice their opinions, about this military conflict or whatever else they want, without being afraid to do so. She/they shouldn't have to prove anything to anyone when they're voicing their opinion in a non Debate Board discussion on the Teen Board. When I voice my opinion in real life, I'm never confronted with "Prove your opinion, show me documentation that validates your opinion." Maybe others are, I'm just not. I dunno.

To see one young woman with a different opinion than the majority get confronted with the impossible task of coming up with an acceptable solution for everyone as to what to do about SH, when the leaders of the world, through the UN, haven't been able to do so, made me want to speak out.

This delusional peacenik wishes peace and love to all on this thread, and all over the world, whether you support this military conflict or not.