Please make my head stop spinning.

[sabrinadv1]

OK so after my husband suggested that I already have a great camera and I don't need another one I have decided on new lenses. So now I am shifting gears and looking for lenses. Thanks for all the help.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Havoc, you really make me laugh when you chime in on the 4:3 discussions. It's clear you know little to nothing about them, yet you still make claims based on what you *think* you know. You can't even get the terminology correct. Nor have you ever used a 4:3 or m4:3 camera. Give me a break. You should do what some of the reviewers do and go out and use one for a month or two and then see what you think. You might be surprised, like they usually are.

OP, 4:3 and m4:3 are very nice cameras which, in the right hands, can produce lovely results and give the user a very pleasurable shooting experience. Hence why there are still many loyal users worldwide, including many of us here on this thread who have used them for years and them.

Olympus glass is expensive. But it's also some of the nicest glass out there. Olympus makes glass for medical scopes - need I say more? All of the lenses are also "designed for digital", and as a pp mentioned, will work on all m4:3 cameras. I buy most of my 4:3 and m4:3 lenses used (and babied) for around half the cost of new. As with any older sensor technology, fast lenses will help you get the shots you want in most situations. More lenses are becoming available all the time. M4:3 also have in-body IS.

Of course, your Pentax is nice also. But as you said, you just need to make a decision about which you prefer to carry around. I have Olympus dSLRs and a m4:3 set up - the EPL-1. I use them both for different things. If you (and others reading) don't want concerns about image quality (as compared to APS-C), then it would serve you well to go with one of the newer sensor cameras, IMO, because you will probably always have "doubts" about it in the back of your mind. But yes, they are costly. Bob had a nice compromise.

There are also a ton of other features that make these cameras fun to have. The best you can do is try it out, and be sure to use your photography knowledge to the best of your ability for the best shots (with any camera). We see far too often that people are willing to trash their cameras when user error plays a big part in not getting good shots. In a m4:3 camera you have a very good tool to get the types of shots you want in a fun, small package. Good luck with your decision.

 

[jimim]

Can I ask you guys what the main diff between the 2 diff Olympus mirrorless lines are? R their mounts the same? They share sensors correct?

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

 

[havoc315]

Havoc, you really make me laugh when you chime in on the 4:3 discussions. It's clear you know little to nothing about them, yet you still make claims based on what you *think* you know. You can't even get the terminology correct. Nor have you ever used a 4:3 or m4:3 camera. Give me a break. You should do what some of the reviewers do and go out and use one for a month or two and then see what you think. You might be surprised, like they usually are.

Wow, that came out of no where and is quite rude. Did I say anything bad about 4:3rds? I don't claim to be an expert in them, but I have seen their results, I have limited experience testing them out, I have read extensively.... And the reason I don't have more experience with them, is because I have made an educated choice that it's not the camera for me. (when I go small, I prefer to go really small... or I prefer to stick with a dSLR. That's me, and I appreciate it's not the same choice for everyone).

But what false statement have I made about their pros and cons?

You happen to love the 4/3rds system. Good for you. There is certainly a lot to like about it. But I have done nothing but give impartial objective discussion.

 

[JoeDif]

Can I ask you guys what the main diff between the 2 diff Olympus mirrorless lines are? R their mounts the same? They share sensors correct?

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The Olympus 4/3 line is a traditional DSLR setup using internal mirror box and an optical viewfinder

The m4/3 line which includes the PEN line and the newer O-MD are part of the mirrorless cameras mentioned above. The O-MD does have a built-in EVF while the PEN linup does not.

Both formats use th same 4/3 sensor, which is slightly smaller than an APS-C sensor. m4/3 cameras can use 4/3 lenses with an adapter but 4/3 cameras can not use m4/3 lenses.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Wow, that came out of no where and is quite rude. Did I say anything bad about 4:3rds? I don't claim to be an expert in them, but I have seen their results, I have limited experience testing them out, I have read extensively.... And the reason I don't have more experience with them, is because I have made an educated choice that it's not the camera for me. (when I go small, I prefer to go really small... or I prefer to stick with a dSLR. That's me, and I appreciate it's not the same choice for everyone).

But what false statement have I made about their pros and cons?

You happen to love the 4/3rds system. Good for you. There is certainly a lot to like about it. But I have done nothing but give impartial objective discussion.

It only appears to come out of nowhere to you because perhaps you haven't been paying attention to comments that people have made to you about it on numerous other threads.

I have seen their results, I have limited experience testing them out, I have read extensively.... And the reason I don't have more experience with them, is because I have made an educated choice that it's not the camera for me.

And others haven't read extensively or made educated choices?

You mentioned color depth.

But looking at objective sources, dxomark does rate the K-X image quality, for dynamic range and color depth, superior are the Pentax.

Really, what do you know about color range in the 4:3/m4:3 line? Do you realize that color is actually one of its strong suits, and that many people use it primarily for that reason?

 

[havoc315]

And others haven't read extensively or made educated choices?

You mentioned color depth.

Really, what do you know about color range in the 4:3/m4:3 line? Do you realize that color is actually one of its strong suits, and that many people use it primarily for that reason?

I really don't understand your rudeness. Did I criticize anyone else's choices?

I said that the PL2 would not be a step up in image quality from the Pentax K-X. (I'm not comparing every mirrorless camera to every dSLR.. I was specifically commenting on the OP's options.. her current dSLR versus the mirrorless cameras she was considering).

So ok, let's look at the most respected objective source, DXOmark:

DXOmark rates the Pentax K-X color depth as 22.8 bits. That's better than the PL2, which comes in at 21.4 bits.

In dynamic range, it's not really close -- The Pentax K-X at 12.5 EV, versus only 10.2 for the PL2.

Total image quality.. DXO rates the K-X at 72. The PL2 gets a score of 55.

So yes, I try my best to thoroughly research before I speak. I'm not always right, don't pretend to be. But I try to bring an educated voice to the discussion.
And as I just proved, everything I said was fully accurate.

 

[JoeDif]

Again, I'm not criticizing the 4/3rds format. It is capable of great results. I'm just saying the results certainly won't be *better* than you'd get with the Pentax K-X.

The great thing about the 4/3rds is size and price, to get even close to a dSLR quality. It certainly is a strong reason to consider 4/3rds.

I don't remember ever saying the OP would get better results with an E-PL2 as opposed to the K-X. I'm also not sure what you mean by DSLR quality. My Olympus E-30 is a DSLR and it shares the same size sensor as the E-PL2, so the E-PL2 must produce DSLR quality images.

I will say that I will most likely get results as good with my m4/3 camera as I could with a Pentax K-X regardless of what DXOmark states.

 

[havoc315]

I don't remember ever saying the OP would get better results with an E-PL2 as opposed to the K-X. I'm also not sure what you mean by DSLR quality. My Olympus E-30 is a DSLR and it shares the same size sensor as the E-PL2, so the E-PL2 must produce DSLR quality images.

I will say that I will most likely get results as good with my m4/3 camera as I could with a Pentax K-X regardless of what DXOmark states.

I suppose I can be more precise with my terminology. I was applying my statements to the OP's position -- so for dSLR, I was referring to the Pentax K-X. And typically, when I say dSLR, I mean APS-C sized sensor. Yes, there are fullframe dSLRs, there are dSLRs with smaller sensors.

I never suggested that you personally said that the PL2 would get better results than the K-X. I simply questioned.... where the OP already have a camera with extremely high image quality, apart from size, why would OP want to switch to another system that was probably a step down in image quality.

Now, in your subjective comparison, you may not see any difference. I don't know whether I'd see any difference. But those scores are a good objective measure. 500 people using 500 different cameras may have 500 different opinions, but at least the DXOmark scores are an objective standard.

Quite often..... I don't see the difference in image quality between my RX100 and my dSLR. Sometimes, I don't personally see the difference in image quality between an iphone and a Canon Mark 5D Mark iii. But I know that ultimately there is a difference in quality, though I might not perceive it every time I look at a quick snap shot.

As someone said to me in another thread, "size matters."
Assuming the same level of sensor technology, the same lens, the same setting, a larger sensor will produce better overall image quality than a smaller sensor.
In terms of pure image quality, one could expect the newest full frame camera to outperform the newest crop-dSLR, which should out-perform a 4/3rd, which should outperform the 1-inch sensors (Nikon 1, Sony RX100), which should outperform the various bridge cameras and compacts.

 

[photo_chick]

I think I am going to go with my instincts and get the pl2. I can get a refurbished one with a year warranty for $229. That leaves a lot more room in the budget for more lenses. I wont be selling any of my work its just for me so to me it makes more sense to spend less on the body and get more toys with it . I really want a fish eye lens. I've seen holga lenses that are cheap. Are they any fun to play with? Thanks for the heads up on the sigma lenses they sound exactly like what I'm looking for.

Skip the Holga lens with a digital camera. It's just not the same effect as using a Holga camera. It doesn't have the light leaks, irregularities, vignetting from loose wind film and other oddities that make an image so Holga like. The DSLR lens effect is more like putting a piece of plastic wrap on your lens.

If you want a cheap but excellent quality fisheye look at the Samyang (sold under Samyang, Rokinon, Bower..) If you want something different to play with you might consider a Lensbaby. The Muse is fairly inexpensive and available in both Pentax and 4/3 mounts. But research and make sure you know what you're getting into there because a Lensbaby isn't everyone's cup of tea.

 

[photo_chick]

I really don't understand your rudeness. Did I criticize anyone else's choices?

I said that the PL2 would not be a step up in image quality from the Pentax K-X. (I'm not comparing every mirrorless camera to every dSLR.. I was specifically commenting on the OP's options.. her current dSLR versus the mirrorless cameras she was considering).

So ok, let's look at the most respected objective source, DXOmark:

DXOmark rates the Pentax K-X color depth as 22.8 bits. That's better than the PL2, which comes in at 21.4 bits.

In dynamic range, it's not really close -- The Pentax K-X at 12.5 EV, versus only 10.2 for the PL2.

Total image quality.. DXO rates the K-X at 72. The PL2 gets a score of 55.

So yes, I try my best to thoroughly research before I speak. I'm not always right, don't pretend to be. But I try to bring an educated voice to the discussion.
And as I just proved, everything I said was fully accurate.

You also tend to get hung up on the statistics. Stats are great to get an idea of what you might want but far too many people let them play a larger role in the decision making process than they have in the practice of photography.

 

[havoc315]

You also tend to get hung up on the statistics. Stats are great to get an idea of what you might want but far too many people let them play a larger role in the decision making process than they have in the practice of photography.

Agreed. I'm not suggesting that a 0.5 EV difference in dynamic range should drive anyone's decision making. (for example).

But as I was challenged in my rather innocuous statement that the PL2 was a step down in image quality compared to the K-X (I never said it was a huge step down), as I was put on the defensive with an implication that the PL2 has better color depth than the K-X, I simply cited the only available objective resource in self-defense.

 

[jimim]

The Olympus 4/3 line is a traditional DSLR setup using internal mirror box and an optical viewfinder

The m4/3 line which includes the PEN line and the newer O-MD are part of the mirrorless cameras mentioned above. The O-MD does have a built-in EVF while the PEN linup does not.

Both formats use th same 4/3 sensor, which is slightly smaller than an APS-C sensor. m4/3 cameras can use 4/3 lenses with an adapter but 4/3 cameras can not use m4/3 lenses.

I' confused. I don't know why but it seems there r so many diff mounts with mirror less?

So just the mirrorless line. . . both have a 4/3 sensor? but above u saif the PEN and O-MD line are m4/3 so they can use both sets of lens but with an adaptor for the 4/3 lens?

I think i'm confused cause I shoot Canon so it is a APS-C sensor not 4/3. The Olympus SLR line is a 4/3 sensor not APS-C sensor? correct?

jim

 

[JoeDif]

I' confused. I don't know why but it seems there r so many diff mounts with mirror less?

Correct. Many different camera manufacturers produce mirrorless cameras. Olympus, Nikon, Panasonic, Canon, Fuji...etc.


So just the mirrorless line. . . both have a 4/3 sensor? but above u saif the PEN and O-MD line are m4/3 so they can use both sets of lens but with an adaptor for the 4/3 lens?

Correct again. The Olympus 4/3 DSLR line and the PEN / O-MD m4/3 line both use the same size sensor but the lens mounts are different.


I think i'm confused cause I shoot Canon so it is a APS-C sensor not 4/3. The Olympus SLR line is a 4/3 sensor not APS-C sensor? correct?

Correct again. Olympus and Panasonic both use the 4/3 sensor, different from the APS-C sensor used by Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etc.

jim

See above

 

[photo_chick]

I may be wrong here, but I thought Olympus used micro 4/3, a slightly smaller sensor, on their mirrorless. The same as Panasonic. The 4/3 on their DSLR's is a little bit larger.

 

[JoeDif]

I may be wrong here, but I thought Olympus used micro 4/3, a slightly smaller sensor, on their mirrorless. The same as Panasonic. The 4/3 on their DSLR's is a little bit larger.

All of the Olympus DSLR 4/3 cameras and m4/3 cameras use the same sized sensor. They have increased the MP's on the newer models to 16MP as opposed to 12MP on the older sensors

 

[jimim]

All of the Olympus DSLR 4/3 cameras and m4/3 cameras use the same sized sensor. They have increased the MP's on the newer models to 16MP as opposed to 12MP on the older sensors

Joe so if u was looking at an Olympus m4/3 what should I be looking for when shopping glass regarding mount? Just make sure it fits a micro 4/3 mount? If just talking the new smaller lens. Not traditional glass with an adaptor.

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[JoeDif]

Joe so if u was looking at an Olympus m4/3 what should I be looking for when shopping glass regarding mount? Just make sure it fits a micro 4/3 mount? If just talking the new smaller lens. Not traditional glass with an adaptor.

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

Yes just make sure the lens has a m4/3 mount. Various manufacturers are now making lenses with that mount such as Olympus, Panasonic, Sigma, Lenbaby. Tamron just announced a m4/3 lens but it isn't out yet. Also Samyang make manual focus lenses for m4/3.

 

[photo_chick]

All of the Olympus DSLR 4/3 cameras and m4/3 cameras use the same sized sensor. They have increased the MP's on the newer models to 16MP as opposed to 12MP on the older sensors

There is so much on the web about these systems that contradicts itself I can see why the OP's head is spinning. I've read several articles that say the micro 4/3 is a hair smaller, and several that say they're the same size just with different mounts. And if it confuses someone like me, who knows a little bit about photography, I can't imagine how it must seem to a beginner. Confusion like this is why I miss film.

 

[boBQuincy]

Yes just make sure the lens has a m4/3 mount. Various manufacturers are now making lenses with that mount such as Olympus, Panasonic, Sigma, Lenbaby. Tamron just announced a m4/3 lens but it isn't out yet. Also Samyang make manual focus lenses for m4/3.

This is one of the best things about micro 4/3, because it isn't just a mount, it is a standard that any manufacturer can buy into. Unlike other lens mounts where the 3rd party has to reverse engineer the mount and protocol, micro 4/3 provides the original specifications so there is no question that all the lenses will function properly.

Voigtlander and SLRmagic also make native micro 4/3 lenses and Zeiss is planning to. At least one other camera manufacturer has joined the standard lately.