Please, let us preserve that which is classic

chicky monkey

Mouseketeer
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Jan 17, 2001
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This is my first post on the rumor/news board, but have been reading the posts for quite some time and have developed quite an affinity for DVC-Landbaron, gcurling, and AV. Anyway...here's a thought...

Just as we preserve portions of our country via national parks and such, Disney execs should respect and preserve those rides which are classic and were developed by WDW himself. They (the rides) can be treated and packaged in the same manner of the "Masterpiece" collection of videos i.e. Cinderella, Snow White, etc----you know...rides with the personal touch of Walt Disney, himself. Videos given the "Masterpiece" label were considered the "classics" and have fancy packaging allowing them to stand out over the others---the rides can be treated similarly.

The classic "Masterpiece-like" rides in the parks should be cared for and given top consideration. No one wants these rides to fade away. We owe more to Walt than to tear down these classics. Park execs should fight to preserve rides such as Small World, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Space, Splash, and Thunder Mountain, and the Jungle Cruise.

Walt would be sad to see the demise of that which he loved so dearly.
 
For one thing, Walt never saw the likes of Space, Splash, and Thunder Mountain.
Second of all Walt would have been smart enough to replace a ride whose time had passed, so to keep an attraction open just because it has been branded a "classic" by some devout Disneyites would be an insult to Walt not a homage.
 
Unfortunately I feel that we are in an age where attractions are replaced before there time has passed.

Was Mr. Toad's Wild Ride suffering from unpopularity? During my off-season visits I always saw 20 minute lines, with both sides operating? Oh yes, kid's haven't seen the movie so they didn't know who Toad was, let's just cast aside all the kids who got to learn about Toad from reading the Wind in the Willows (#4 on Amazon's list of Classics for Children).

Were Figment and Dreamfinder unpopular ambassadors for prompting us to explore our imaginations? (I agree the 80's pastels and script needed changing, but the underriding messages were very relevent and popular)

Ditto for Horizons, forget the outdated hairstyles, costumes and music. Was the theme and message something that has passed it's time?

I wish there was some way we could protect messages: "If you can dream it, we can build it", "A dream can be a dream come true, With just that spark in me and you."
 
I agree that with only a few exceptions that rides should be refurbished once they start to look a bit frayed. Note that I said REFURBISHED and not bulldozed due to some lame excuses like sinkholes and goodness knows what else. Horizons and Toad needed updating in my opinion and didn't need to be torn down.

There are a few exceptions as I noted. I would keep It's A Small World, Pirates, CoP and the Haunted Mansion as they are for example.
 

This is my first post on the rumor/news board, but have been reading the posts for quite some time and have developed quite an affinity for DVC-Landbaron, gcurling, and AV.
Uh oh, that's an interesting trio - and me, right there in the middle, never would have expected that. :)
 
I disagree with the notion that rides be protected because Walt built them. Certainly that wasn't the case when Walt was alive. Walt's Ideals is what should be preserved.
Mr. Toad is a bad example as of the rides mentioned it was the only one that maintained its attendence. Horizons was losing visitors, Imagination was losing visitors, Carosel of Progress is losing visitos. And the assumption that these facts are due to poor maintainence doesn't paint the whole picture. I agree, we need a horizons/CoP message in Epcot, but to Fix the original show would have meant completely gutting and rebuilding anyway. I have no problems with space, because when taken with the land and the Living Seas (which itself needs a rehab), covers all the original potential futures in horizons. A horizons ride needs to be more central. Frankly bulldozing the original was a step in the right direction.What I can only hope is that someone takes charge who knows what needs to be done and builds a better horizons.

But that's all besides the point. The point is that when Walt was a live, nothing was sacred in terms of specific rides (likely except the steam trains) nothing should be sacred now.
 
Originally posted by YoHo
Mr. Toad is a bad example as of the rides mentioned it was the only one that maintained its attendence. Horizons was losing visitors, Imagination was losing visitors, Carosel of Progress is losing visitos. And the assumption that these facts are due to poor maintainence doesn't paint the whole picture. I agree, we need a horizons/CoP message in Epcot, but to Fix the original show would have meant completely gutting and rebuilding anyway. I have no problems with space, because when taken with the land and the Living Seas (which itself needs a rehab), covers all the original potential futures in horizons. A horizons ride needs to be more central. Frankly bulldozing the original was a step in the right direction.

I'm not convinced Horizons, Journey into Imagination, or COP were really losing that many visitors, at least not compared to the number of "passengers" they carried in the late 80's (naturally, Horizons and JII attracted more people in their first years, when new). Granted, both were walk-on rides with no significant waiting lines, but the qeue length has no bearing on how many people ride so long as all ride vehicles run at full capacity. Horizons, for example, might falsely have appeared to have relatively few guests attending for several factors: what line exists was in the building, the hourly capacity was tremendous, and there were no shops or restaurants - all this means any person heading for Horizons would have went right in, rode, then came out and departed. The courtyard outside thus would look positively deserted, even if the attraction was full.

Refurbishment need not require a complete gutting, either. Horizons could easily have been updated and improved - and such innovations would have attracted more guests to Horizons in any case. Now, "space" solves the same problem (and I'm glad to see it coming), but I would much have preferred to see it in addition to Horizons, not instead of Horizons. Besides, we all know what happened with JII/JIYI.

I'll agree maintenance doesn't explain the decline. However, most anything which remains stagnant (never changes at all) will eventually lose interest or look outdated (Mission to Mars). By definition, Epcot's Future World requires updates for it's attractions. Look at Spaceship Earth, for example. It's would be easily reconizable by someone who hasn't seen it since 1982, but it's also not the same attraction we had back then (new scenes, narraration, new technology). Spaceship Earth (and COP) has seen evolutionary, not revolutionary, changes - which Horizons, JII, and perhaps even Mr. Toad could have used. Also, if an attraction really must go (I won't rule out this eventuality completely - but none of these rides were at that point yet - or even close) as much as possible should be preserved. Elements might be re-used in new attractions, or the attraction itself might be brought back at some point in the future (MSEP, Magic Journeys). This would have been a quick, effective, and "cheap" way to "fix" JIYI.

Finally, if COP is losing visitors you wouldn't know it by Just by looking. I was there last week (the whole MK was really packed, too) and there were NO empty seats in our theater - and people still waiting outside. This was about Noon.
 
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I personally think they should have kept Horizons as a pre-show to Mission:Space, which would have been added on to the back. This would have kept a 'family' attraction for the pavilion and provided a lead in to the thrill ride, since the rides last horizon was space. The final mini-simulators could have geared towards Space, choosing a lift off, landing or moon fly-by (while promoting the thrill ride to come). It would have then dropped you into the display area where the non-thrill seekers could spend their time, while the thrill seekers went on to the new Space ride. They also could have kept Horizons open while Space was being built as sort of a teaser for the new ride (after a short update), with peaks into the progress of the ride at the end. This would have boosted Horizons attendance leading up to the opening, and the tie in would keep it busy after.
>I also think they should have done the same thing with World of Motion. Replacing 'family' rides with thrill rides is a dangerous thing for 'Disney' to do. And what was GM thinking anyway??? If they would have left the World of Motion and ADDED Test Track, then while the kids were waiting for and riding Test Track, Mom and Dad would have been looking at the car$!!! Now, they've scared away Mom and Pop and are left with teens running through the showroom more concerned with what their next ride would be. Same with Horizons, while the kids rode the ride, Mom and Pop would view the displays (including Compaq computers which could have touted the importance of owning a computer in a house with kids). Both GM and Compaq have both replaced 'attractions' that attracted families, and replaced them with 'attractions' that do not attract their key demographics. And like Horizons, they could have added peaks at the new ride at the end of Motion, which would have boosted Motions attendance leading up to the opening, would have saved the embarrassment when it opened a year late, and the tie in would keep it busy after. Another way to look at it is while TT and MS were being built, the sponsor sponsored nothing and had NO contact with the public (+ the extra year TT took to build). If they had spent a little bit more to upgrade and keep the original, that obviously valuable exposure would have been saved (and well worth the $$$ spent).
I'm a PERFECT example...I am a computer professional who goes to WDW with his 7yo daughter who doesn't like thrill rides. If Horizons and Motion still existed, we would regularly ride them and pass through the display area (I BUY NEW cars-need one now a matter of fact, home COMPUTERS, AND influence the purchase of computers and network equipment at work!$?). We never go on Test Track (she did it once, I've snuck in a couple of other times when I was in the park alone), so we never see the sponsor and I don't really plan on going in the back way to do that, either.
This isn't Disney's fault, since Epcot is run more by the sponsors. JitYI is another perfect example...the ride sucks, and Tasha gets scared by the 3D film, so we never see the sponsor. What's the point?????
>I also think that Pooh and Company could have had a whole new area built for them (hundred acre woods) and the new ride, sparing Mr. Toad, who might of had a resurgence (and more meaning) after the movie was released on video.
>I also think that 20,000 Leagues could have been easily converted into a Little Mermaid Submarine ride, with the Octopus replaced with Ursula attacking the ship, and a slight glimpse of Atlantis just before the attack and retreat. Hell, the mermaids could even have been salvaged. The narration could have been done by Prince Eric (the Captain of the sub), and Ariel.
>I also think that CoP could easily be made a premier attraction by adding the current Tommorrowland theme to it and changing the scenes from the current history lesson with Mr. Boring and his goofy family, to Jules Vern's look visions of the future, starting from 1900, then his view of the near future (2000, a distorted view of now), the future (2100, pretty wild), then the distant future (2200, wacky). It could also be less far out with the final scene still being in the 21st century with aliens helping out in the kitchen. The building itself could be changed into a giant retro-spaceship.
>Living Seas could easily be fixed...eliminate the pre-show requirement and let people straight into the hydrolators. Turn the preshow areas into show areas INSIDE the 'underwater' station (more capacity, more to do). The pre-preshow (which shows nothing right now), could be converted into a kiddy aquarium where kids climb THROUGH a giant aquarium surrounded by the fishes, while the parents sit and watch or take the opportunity to explore the exhibits. The preshow area could show a series of movies that you can choose to see (IF YOU WISH, WHEN YOU WISH) The original movie, a terrors of the deep, a treasures of the deep and highlight film of what can be seen within the station (a different film every 15 minutes, 4 different films)...and a place to SIT(!!!!). The kiddy aquarium idea, again gives families something to do, Mom and Pop might just go there JUST because junior want to play, and then (if there was a sponsor) the sponsor could pitch their stuff. It's hard for parents to check out all the displays, when junior is crying, "can we go now"?
>Then there's Food Rocks...as far as I'm concerned, I prefer Disney cute to Disney cool, and miss Brocolli:(
>More JityI...When Kodak decided to rip-off the public by taking away the 2nd floor of the pavilion, then replaced what once was significant ride space with line space and the new play area???, I was offended. This is not something you want to do to your 'patrons'. They could have easily added on the the 1st floor providing new area for a significant new ride that would have been worthwhile and DREW people to the pavilion (instead of repulsing them).
>Superstar TV should be replaced with Superstar at the Movies. The whole premise for this attraction was right on target for MGM, providing an avenue for guests to be part of the show. And just because the TV version got stale didn't mean the idea was stale. They could alternate the movie version with the TV version every 5 years (changing them each time), and the attraction WOULD do well (hell the comfortable COOL theatre was almost good enough to go in (Doug wasn't, though).
>And Epcot could use a culture fix (Millenium Village did a good job providing us with more variety for a while). The don't have to build a whole new country, just a new pavilion hosted by 4-6 new countries. Each country could share the sponsor costs and a central stage and picnic area. Each country would take turns presenting a show on the stage and would operate a store, food counter, with a large shared restaurant in the back. Hopefully the countries would share something in common so a common architecture could be developed to represent them all (and the menu in the restaurant would make some sense, while providing a wide variety)
 
I disagree with the notion that rides be protected because Walt built them. Certainly that wasn't the case when Walt was alive.

Why not just redo Cinderella with a modern theme? I mean with child labor laws and all….and while we are at it lets make a Cinderella Roller Coaster around the castle!
Sounds stupid doesn't it

You obviously didn't know Walt and Roy. Name one Major attraction that was closed and re-themed at Disney while Walt and Roy were in control?
There Wasn't ONE!
Walt always found a way around the so called BOTTOM LINE even if it gave Roy a headache ;)
The WDW Railraod, Tiki birds and COP were some of Walt personal favorites. Updates yes, but re-theme or close the classics is an insult to the thousands of people that love them just the way they are and true to the story they were designed after. Believe me, there is no reason to close a ride with all the real estate that Disney owns.

Too bad the BOTTOM LINE is all that matters today…..

LONG LIVE MR. TOM MORROW YOU WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED
 
JeffH, enjoyed reading your attraction redo ideas.

I also don't see the point in continuing to preserve old attractions if attendance dictates otherwise. Even if they do it for nostalgia/PR sake you know they are never going to pour the $ needed to keep these attractions in top shape. We all hate to see our sentimental favorites go, but to me it is worse to see them slowly deteriorate away.

While prudent to have some percentage of the annual maintenance budget go, not for just fixing broken parts, but continual improvements, this kind of spending is an easy target during those budget cutting exercises. It is non-essential today, so it can go, even if it is in the best long-term interest of the park. I assume this has been played out at the parks several times over.

Given the aversion to new capital they must take a pretty hard look at the economics of retrofitting an attraction versus replacing it. I assume most of the time this decision is dictated by the useable life of the major attraction mechnical hardware. I thought this was the case with the subs. I don't think the same can be said for Mr. Toad. We all agree that it was short sided to not keep Toad and add Pooh to the mix.
 
Tommorowland's Flying Saucers
Space Station X-1
Phantom Boats
Viewliner
Midget Autopia
The Conestoga Wagons and the Stagecoach

Courtesy of Werner Weiss's Yesterland

All of these rides and Likely more Were closed during Walt Disney's lifetime and were either Upgraded into a wholly new and possibly vastly different attraction.

I get in enough "Heated" arguments around here, I don't need to be ridiculed when I am correct.


As for horizons, Numerous reports have stated that Horizons needed to be completely gutted, because the ride mechanism was dying. A simple updating of the scenes was insufficent.

And Again, I'll point out that in 1996, the last time I rode JII, you couldn't here Dreamfinder or Figment over the growning and screeching of the mechanism. It needed to be gutted as well.

I agree with JeffH, the removal of kid friendly rides and replacing them souly with Thrill style rides especially in futureworld where a certain amount of education is expected, is a bad thing, but purely in terms of replacing rides no matter who built them. That's fine.
 
Walt always found a way around the so called BOTTOM LINE even if it gave Roy a headache

This has nothing to do with the Bottom line, Granted, with mr Ei$ner that is more important, but my point has little to do with money.

WALT CHANGED RIDES, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT UP BETTER ONES!!!

Granted, that currently the Disney Corp thinks a little differently, but in the end, the attempt to replace existing rides with better ones(So they get longer lines, generate higher attendence...). Unfortunatly, in the last 5 years, they have failed on a couple fronts (JIYI, Pooh is more a lateral move.)
 
All of these rides and Likely more Were closed during Walt Disney's lifetime and were either Upgraded into a wholly new and possibly vastly different attraction I get in enough "Heated" arguments around here, I don't need to be ridiculed when I am correct.
.

I'm' Sorry You Missed My Point,

I Stated Major Classic Attractions Such as HM, POC, COP, 20K, etc... Not ones like Toad, or RSTM, etc

I apologize if I offended you in any way. I agree that some change is needed to keep up with the times.

Also,

The Reason Hori and JII were changed had to do with the bottom line contrary to whatever you been told.
If Disney finds a sponsor the sponsor dictates PERIOD.
Don't like TLSeas think the place need a major update? Think it's in poor shape
I do! But UT the sponsor pulled out years ago that why there is no updates and the place is going to pot.
And until there is a sponsor, it will fall in to ruin and close like Horisons did When GE pulled the plug.
The bottom line dictates Yoho, that's why they are building more resorts as opposed to attractions.
 
Originally posted by YoHo

As for horizons, Numerous reports have stated that Horizons needed to be completely gutted, because the ride mechanism was dying. A simple updating of the scenes was insufficent.

I don't doubt this is correct, but what bothers me is that a less than 17 year old ride system would be failing so soon. What's more, that ride sat idle (closed) for several of those years. An update to Horizons would have drawn in more guests. Mission Space will too, but again, we could have had both for only slightly more money (I know - the "bottom line"; no sponsor for Horizons).

More critically, if Future World was built so cheaply back in '82 that several ride (JII, Horizons, others?) systems had such short life spans, we'll have to re-evaluate the portrayel of current Disney leadership as being afraid to spend money on the parks. The original Future World attractions always seemed like quality rides - not cheap (so what's the problem?). I'd love to know the true - and complete! - story of Horizons demise, because all the stated reasons sound like excuses.

As for the closing of other classic attractions (by Walt himself, or since), I agree there is a difference between closing just any attraction (Dreamflight) and closing a classic (Mr. Toad, Small World {Disneyland}). Also, Walt was dealing with Disneyland when he came up with new attractions. For lack of space alone, something new meant something old had to go (and the company didn't always have the money for expansion then that it has today, either). But at WDW, you don't necessairily have to close anything to add new rides. Now, I am not saying nothing should ever be closed or removed. I am saying we shouldn't be in such a hurry to get rid of classic attractions (a handful should never be removed, just as we preserve a few historical buildings in the real world). However, when the time finally comes, as much as possible should be preserved from the attraction. Walt didn't want the parks to become a museum, but that doesn't mean we cannot have some sort of "museum" of preserved attractions.
 
:)


What about the Carousel of Progress? That's a classic if I ever saw one!

Mickey76 :)
 














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