Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[rteetz]

I agree from a canal/waterway standpoint. The permit is for movement of drainage ponds and waterways primarily, and any canal would involve some major reworking of that.

However, it doesn't rule out a walkway - the permit isn't really for construction just yet, while it lays out the building locations, there's a lot of things that aren't shown. Particularly, their isn't an area for a pool, which whether it would be DVC or hotels there would still be a pool there. So, a walkway likely wouldn't yet show up in the existing permit.

The permit does show modifications to one of the existing pools though. Rumor is a new poolside bar/grill type thing like they did at the Poly.

 

[jade1]

<sigh> No matter how I slice this, it's hard to make a compelling case.

Yep and yet so simple for me.

Walkway to Germany-I'm buying/adding on.
Boat/walkway to IG-I'm staying some but not buying/adding on.
No boat or walkway (no direct park access)-not staying/buying/adding on (same as AKV/SSR/OKW-no interest at all).

 

[Madonna3]

Walking access to IG. This has been touched on but not discussed much in this thread. IMO this truly would not be crazy expensive or difficult - you'd need a pedestrian bridge over the road and a sidewalk along the canal. No difficult technical barriers, no need for additional staff, no great construction expense or ongoing maintenance costs. Adequate lighting/security at night would probably be the biggest concern. I don't think they'll actually do this, of course. My family would use it, but I know we're in the heavy minority. And that fire department (or whatever it is) with its bridge over the canal probably presents a logistical difficulty.

Actually, we've debated it at great length. Most of us are in agreement with you.

Without at least walking access to EPCOT, there would have to be some other hook to make me choose CBR over OKW or SSR, or even standard view at AKL. OKW has big rooms, AK has animals, and we actually like SSR. I don't particularly mind "spread out", my kids like the pools and the community hall, and while I'm not a big shopper, we do wander over to DS from time to time. What would CBR offer to compete with that at a similar price point?

This is also being hotly debated. As a DVC, with no access, what's the hook?

<sigh> No matter how I slice this, it's hard to make a compelling case.

For or against DVC?

I did this really quick trying to show a walking bridge connecting the tower to a new entrance that would be next to Germany (so like the BLT bridge but bigger)

Also painted in a widening of the canal to show how long it would be. Also raised the question as that canal is on the other side of Buena Vista Bvld - so do people first have to walk over a bridge to get to the canal or do you build a water bridge over Buena Vista (or have Buena vista go over/under a new canal) that goes right to Caribbean Beach?

The more you lay it out just feels like only thing that would be practical is a 3rd entrance from a walking bridge - which in and of itself doesn't seem practical have to staff a new entrance just for one resort

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First, thanks for doing that. I wanted to do something similar, but network firewalls and such. Putting this to a visual paints a true picture of what we're dealing with and what the possibilities are as far as WE can see for a connection and I just don't see it happening which keeps CBR in its crappy landlocked location. And this is why, while I cannot rule out DVC 100%, I also cannot rule it in 100%.

 

[Madonna3]

Yep and yet so simple for me.

Walkway to Germany-I'm buying/adding on.
Boat/walkway to IG-I'm staying some but not buying/adding on.
No boat or walkway (no direct park access)-not staying/buying/adding on (same as AKV/SSR/OKW-no interest at all).

Pretty much. Except we like AKL, but the dues were higher than VGF. In hindsight, I probably just should have paid the higher dues for AKL since I can never book VGF anyway and just end up staying at AKL.

 

[Madonna3]

The permit does show modifications to one of the existing pools though. Rumor is a new poolside bar/grill type thing like they did at the Poly.

Like at the Poly or like at WL or both?

 

[TheMaxRebo]

This is also being hotly debated. As a DVC, with no access, what's the hook?

First, thanks for doing that. I wanted to do something similar, but network firewalls and such. Putting this to a visual paints a true picture of what we're dealing with and what the possibilities are as far as WE can see for a connection and I just don't see it happening which keeps CBR in its crappy landlocked location. And this is why, while I cannot rule out DVC 100%, I also cannot rule it in 100%.

no problem - stuff like that is a good break from my day job

As for "DVC, with no access, what's the hook?" - the only thing I can see is if it is a cheaper buy in (less $/point and/or less points/day - total upfront by in of only $10-15k).

Totally get that there is no appeal to someone like you that already has DVC but for others that would like to buy in but just can do $25k there could be appeal

 

[Madonna3]

no problem - stuff like that is a good break from my day job

As for "DVC, with no access, what's the hook?" - the only thing I can see is if it is a cheaper buy in (less $/point and/or less points/day - total upfront by in of only $10-15k).

Totally get that there is no appeal to someone like you that already has DVC but for others that would like to buy in but just can do $25k there could be appeal

For the record, my poly buy in was 16k.

 

[skier_pete]

So, I am now on the side of that a park entry is not likely, but I would still like to argue (cause it's fun!) that the walkway concept would be financially viable. I've already previously shown that it could be demonstrated that it would provide DVC with $190 million of additional revenue up front. Now I want to show that manning a 3rd Epcot entry would not be fully justified as a staffing expense.

If you make this entry exclusive to just CBR/and new-DVC residents, you are only talking a few thousand people that would have access on any given day, many of which would not be using the gate as they would be heading to other parks. Let's assume that there's 600 DVC rooms, plus the remaining 1500 CBR rooms, that's maybe around 8000 guests on a given day, and let's say a third of them enter into Epcot on a given day, so that's 2,700 guests each day entering Epcot. Over a 12 hour park day, that's an average of 225 guests per hour that you would have to accommodate - or 4 per minute.

Your biggest problem is first thing in the morning, where you might have several hundred guests that want to enter at once. This might require 2 security people, and 2 "ticket scanner" CM for the first hour of operation. However, beyond that - you can probably get away with having a single security screener and a single ticketing CM for most of the day, though let's be generous and say they keep 2 and 2 in place to cover breaks and such the entire day.

I argue this by thinking as comparison to the park entrance at the Grand Californian. This entrance is accessible by guests of THREE large hotels with 2,500 guest rooms - so about 10,000 guests eligible and since in this case there are only two parks to choose from - when we stayed there we even used the DCA entrance as a shortcut to enter Disneyland - you are talking perhaps as high as 50% of the guests use the entrance throughout the day, so let's say 5,000 guests each day - about double what this entrance would do. This is ignoring the fact that day guests were also allowed to use this entrance most of the day until recently. In the morning there, the lineup of people entering would get probably 300-400 deep, but they would only have 3-4 security guards and 3 guests entrances (and remember they don't have Magic Bands to allow multiple touch points at each entrance). During the day they would drop down to 2 security guards and 2 ticketing CM. So I think saying this CBR gate being staffed with 2 and 2 is reasonable at this stage.

So - 4 employees for let's call it 13 hours a day (8:30 AM - 9:30 PM), at $10 an hour wage = $520 a day. Let's generously double that to include benefits - so $1040 a day to staff this third entrance. Split that amongst 2,100 accessible rooms, and the cost is $0.50 per room per day. Can you up-charge 50 cents a day for a room with direct park access?

Or another way to cut it - cost per DVC point - since possibly membership dues would have to pay for it to be staffed. A small resort like BC has 3 million points, Poly has 4 million, BLT has 5.7 million. Saratoga 14 million points. Link HERE if you don't believe me. Let's be kind and assume the DVC resort is on the small side and call it 4 million points.

That means even if the cost of staffing park access was FULLY FUNDED by the DVC resort - it would add 9.5 cents per year for each point you own, that's out of the typical $6 - $7 in maintenance fees. (To give you an idea - every AKV owner pays ~35 cents a year per point for the animal caretaking and programs.) A typical 200 point contract would cost $19 a year for your park access. More than likely, they would split that cost with the CBR resort - which would bring it down to under $10 a year as part of your dues to pay for park access.

Again - the point being, this should NOT just be dismissed as "it's too expensive to do". It's easily justifiable financially both front up front cost and from staffing.

 

[Madonna3]

That means even if the cost of staffing park access was FULLY FUNDED by the DVC resort - it would add 9.5 cents per year for each point you own, that's out of the typical $6 - $7 in maintenance fees. (To give you an idea - every AKV owner pays ~35 cents a year for the animal caretaking and programs.) A typical 200 point contract would cost $19 a year for your park access. More than likely, they would split that cost with the CBR resort - which would bring it down to under $10 a year as part of your dues to pay for park access.

Again - the point being, this should NOT just be dismissed as "it's too expensive to do". It's easily justifiable financially both front up front cost and from staffing.

Ok fine, it's too expensive to do for absolutely no ROI. Eventually, after your $10 a year pays for the initial investment, that $10 a year has to go to upkeep and staffing. There's no financial advantage to do this because once it's sold, it's sold for 50 years and they have to move on to the next project. It's too exclusive for absolutely no reason. It's not the crème de la crème of the Disney resorts. GF is and even that one doesn't have exclusive access so why the hell would CBR?

 

[TheMaxRebo]

For the record, my poly buy in was 16k.

oh ok, thanks for that - someone else mentioned a minimum buy in was $25k (I don't own DVC) ... so maybe even like $8-10k then

 

[mab2012]

Actually, we've debated it at great length. Most of us are in agreement with you.

Okay, if you say so. I've read every post. I've seen lots of references to "walkways", but in most it was unclear (to me) whether the poster intended a walkway to IG or a walkway to a mythical 3rd gate. Very different things.

For or against DVC?

For. IMO this discussion is a lot less interesting if they're just replacing worn-out rooms with a newer version of the same.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Okay, if you say so. I've read every post. I've seen lots of references to "walkways", but in most it was unclear (to me) whether the poster intended a walkway to IG or a walkway to a mythical 3rd gate. Very different things.
.

I could see a walkway to IG - it's the whole creating a third entrance to a park (when no other park has more than one) that would service just one resort

That would be a long walk though so unless they do like movie walkways or people movers or something not sure how much of a draw that would be to most people

 

[Madonna3]

Okay, if you say so. I've read every post. I've seen lots of references to "walkways", but in most it was unclear (to me) whether the poster intended a walkway to IG or a walkway to a mythical 3rd gate. Very different things.

We've been debating both options. Neither of which seem feasible. A walkway to IG is more than a mile I believe and therefore was ruled out early on.

 

[mab2012]

I could see a walkway to IG - it's the whole creating a third entrance to a park (when no other park has more than one) that would service just one resort

That would be a long walk though so unless they do like movie walkways or people movers or something not sure how much of a draw that would be to most people

Agree completely - that's why I'm nearly certain they won't do it.

"Long walk" is relative, of course. We're talking the roughly the outside perimeter of World Showcase. I don't see this as a long walk at all, but I know I'm very much in the minority of the Disney-going population.

We've been debating both options. Neither of which seem feasible. A walkway to IG is more than a mile I believe and therefore was ruled out early on.

I don't think this one is actually infeasible at all, just unpopular, therefore unlikely. I think we're probably in agreement on this too.

 

[DanBoris]

As in that canal would have to be widened? A lot...

And they would have a lot to hide from the boats view...a lot?

Doing some armchair Imagineering, they would probably have to re-route Epcot Resort Blvd as show below and then get rid of the current water bridge so that the canal could be connect to the IG waterway. They could also let off behind France but this would require building a new dock and then a foot bridge over to the IG. This would probably be a more viable option. Not that I think they are any plans to do this.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Agree completely - that's why I'm nearly certain they won't do it.

"Long walk" is relative, of course. We're talking the roughly the outside perimeter of World Showcase. I don't see this as a long walk at all, but I know I'm very much in the minority of the Disney-going population.



I don't think this one is actually infeasible at all, just unpopular, therefore unlikely. I think we're probably in agreement on this too.

I just don't see "and you can walk over a mile to get to the parks!" is a great selling point and reason enough to get top price/Deluxe DVC prices

I think it is still a nice perk though

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Doing some armchair Imagineering, they would probably have to re-route Epcot Resort Blvd as show below and then get rid of the current water bridge so that the canal could be connect to the IG waterway. They could also let off behind France but this would require building a new dock and then a foot bridge over to the IG. This would probably be a more viable option. Not that I think they are any plans to do this.

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Can the two waterways even be connected? Are they the both type of water or is one for rain run-off only?

 

[rteetz]

Like at the Poly or like at WL or both?

I am thinking more along the lines of the poly. The WL restaurant is table service.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Doing some armchair Imagineering, they would probably have to re-route Epcot Resort Blvd as show below and then get rid of the current water bridge so that the canal could be connect to the IG waterway. They could also let off behind France but this would require building a new dock and then a foot bridge over to the IG. This would probably be a more viable option. Not that I think they are any plans to do this.

View attachment 218355

The waterbridge is the second biggest reason I rejected this idea back on page 1...first being that people buy Disney's stuff like crack cocaine...so why bother spending a dime?

To be fair...I don't think a lot of people know that waterbridge is there...or what that means.

 

[Mr. Drauer]

I agree from a canal/waterway standpoint. The permit is for movement of drainage ponds and waterways primarily, and any canal would involve some major reworking of that.

However, it doesn't rule out a walkway - the permit isn't really for construction just yet, while it lays out the building locations, there's a lot of things that aren't shown. Particularly, their isn't an area for a pool, which whether it would be DVC or hotels there would still be a pool there. So, a walkway likely wouldn't yet show up in the existing permit.

Although not a construction permit, the application for this permit does have to include all proposed structures and impervious areas (i.e. those areas that are not natural ground and prevent water from being absorbed into the ground) in order to demonstrate that the stormwater calculations and proposed pond sites adequately meet the requirements for treatment and storage. That means that the plan would have to show the foundation for any bridge, any paved paths, sidewalks, roads, buildings, parking lots, pools, or other improvements, if they are planned as part of the project. It would also have to show any alterations to the existing ponds (which it does) or canals, which are part of the system. This is not to say that there will not be a "Phase II" part of the project, but it is pretty standard for Disney and RCID to have these projects as a single entity, which is put out to bid by a contractor to handle the job in its entirety, rather than piece-mealing a project.