Picking a Marathon Training Plan

[SimbaMufasa321]

Hey all,
Hoping to get some advice on picking a plan for my second marathon! (NYC). I did the Hal Higdon Novice 2 for my first marathon (Disney) and had reasonable success with it. I did unfortunately injure my hamstring at one point and had to deviate from the plan (not the plan's fault, I didn't have enough rest days and overdid it with hills).

At this point, deciding whether it's worth paying for a plan that's more specifically geared to NYC or is more detailed than a free one. Is it worth it? No real-time goals for NYC although it would be nice to get a PR.

Does anyone have thoughts on paid vs free plans or how they pick a plan in general?

Thanks in advance!

 

[flav]

Hey all,
Hoping to get some advice on picking a plan for my second marathon! (NYC). I did the Hal Higdon Novice 2 for my first marathon (Disney) and had reasonable success with it. I did unfortunately injure my hamstring at one point and had to deviate from the plan (not the plan's fault, I didn't have enough rest days and overdid it with hills).

At this point, deciding whether it's worth paying for a plan that's more specifically geared to NYC or is more detailed than a free one. Is it worth it? No real-time goals for NYC although it would be nice to get a PR.

Does anyone have thoughts on paid vs free plans or how they pick a plan in general?

Thanks in advance!

The main avantages of having a plan made by a trainer is that it is possible to adjust it to your life and your particular situation. The coaching aspect, if you find someone you trust and can relate with, is also a great support and help.

 

[FFigawi]

Hey all,
Hoping to get some advice on picking a plan for my second marathon! (NYC). I did the Hal Higdon Novice 2 for my first marathon (Disney) and had reasonable success with it. I did unfortunately injure my hamstring at one point and had to deviate from the plan (not the plan's fault, I didn't have enough rest days and overdid it with hills).

At this point, deciding whether it's worth paying for a plan that's more specifically geared to NYC or is more detailed than a free one. Is it worth it? No real-time goals for NYC although it would be nice to get a PR.

Does anyone have thoughts on paid vs free plans or how they pick a plan in general?

Thanks in advance!

Paging @DopeyBadger to the white courtesy phone

 

[camaker]

Hey all,
Hoping to get some advice on picking a plan for my second marathon! (NYC). I did the Hal Higdon Novice 2 for my first marathon (Disney) and had reasonable success with it. I did unfortunately injure my hamstring at one point and had to deviate from the plan (not the plan's fault, I didn't have enough rest days and overdid it with hills).

At this point, deciding whether it's worth paying for a plan that's more specifically geared to NYC or is more detailed than a free one. Is it worth it? No real-time goals for NYC although it would be nice to get a PR.

Does anyone have thoughts on paid vs free plans or how they pick a plan in general?

Thanks in advance!

The best plan for you is really not a question of whether to go with a free vs a custom plan. The number one key to picking the best plan for you is determining whether the plan fits into your life and available training time. It doesn't matter how good the plan is if you can't follow it regularly. That's not to say you can't miss a run or two here or there on most plans. It's more a case of if you only have time to get 4 or 5 training runs in a week, picking a plan with 6 runs/week isn't likely to end well. Look at the way the plans are laid out and ask yourself whether you're willing to commit to what it calls for. If not, look elsewhere. Consistency is king in marathon training. Regardless of which way you end up going, good luck!

 

[fatmanatee]

I’ve done NYC and am signed up again this year and although I’m not sure I can help with plan suggestions I will say that you should definitely incorporate some hill training, it’ll prove to be way more useful this time than your first one.

 

[GollyGadget]

In addition to picking a plan that you can commit to, you also need a plan that meets you where you’re at. If you’re currently running 30 miles per week, you shouldn’t pick a plan that requires 70 mpw.

On the commitment topic, I’ve followed Hanson’s a few times because of their long run philosophy. I knew I could commit to 2.5 hrs on a Sunday but not 3+ hours. On the flip side, it does require 6 days a week but that wasn’t a problem for me.

If you decide to pay for something, make sure it fits your needs and will adapt with you. Something will inevitably pop up that you need to adjust around.

 

[SimbaMufasa321]

Thank you everyone! Definitely wasn't thinking about the commitment part, a huge mistake on my part. Will go and do some more thinking

 

[SimbaMufasa321]

I’ve done NYC and am signed up again this year and although I’m not sure I can help with plan suggestions I will say that you should definitely incorporate some hill training, it’ll prove to be way more useful this time than your first one.

Yeah I've heard the bridges are deceptively rough if you haven't done any hills training! Thanks for the reminder

 

[LorrieAnn5]

I've never run a marathon (yet) so take this with a grain of salt, but when I'm looking for a plan, I look first at how many days per week the plan calls for runs (I will never double up on a day either) and if the plan works in miles or in time. The max I can run per week is 5 days and it's much less stressful to have the workouts described in minutes rather than miles. That way, no matter how I'm feeling or the pace I'm going, the workout takes exactly that amount of time. As a working parent, the consistent time commitment matters to me.

Do you have a Garmin watch? I used the Garmin intermediate training plan for half marathon and I was successful so I'm going to use the Garmin intermediate training plan for the marathon. (This is accessed on the Connect website, not the app.) This plan is 16 weeks (8 are 4/wk and 8 are 5/wk) the longest run is 3 hours and I think there are 2 of those. Most weeks are Easy (1 or 2), threshold, intervals, long.

 

[DopeyBadger]

@SimbaMufasa321

Here are some old posts of mine that cover many of the topics surrounding choosing a marathon training plan. I'll echo others with my recommendation is to find a marathon training plan that best fits your fitness and availability to commit to. General marathon training plan recommendations:

Train slow to race fast: Why running more slowly and capping the long run at 2.5 hours may dramatically improve your performance
Why should your average training pace be much much slower than your goal half marathon pace?
Why am I doing this run? The question every runner should be asking themselves.
The Marathon is 99% Aerobic (and 95% for HM and so on): So how to train for it!
Advice for Newbies #1
Advice for Newbies #2
Advice for Newbies #3
Advice for Newbies #4
Advice for Newbies #5

At this point, deciding whether it's worth paying for a plan that's more specifically geared to NYC or is more detailed than a free one. Is it worth it? No real-time goals for NYC although it would be nice to get a PR.

Does anyone have thoughts on paid vs free plans or how they pick a plan in general?

RIght, so the root of the question is "will I get a better training experience from a free plan or a plan I have to pay for?" The answer is, it depends. Depends on the things already tossed around before about commitment. As a well followed free plan will probably yield better results than a loosely followed paid plan. If it's simply a paid plan without any other person on the other side that helps you navigate things, then it's probably a little more advanced than the plans you can typically find for free, but really doesn't have that ability to know how to alter things. There are some adaptive plans out there that use tech to help navigate the decision making process, but I'm not well versed in those. Lastly, there's custom plans written by a coach, and then they're available to coach you through the plan and evaluate what's happening along the way, making changes and such. If you find the right coach for you, you're mostly likely to yield the best results from a coach, but it typically comes at the highest cost comparatively.

As for NYC, it looks like the total elevation gain is 810 feet (31 ft/mile). So start there and compare a route of 31 ft/mile to what you normally train on. If you're currently doing your easy, long runs, tempos on less than 31 ft/mile, then try and find new routes that'll bump that average up. If you can get comfortable with 40-50 ft/mile training routes, then 31 ft/mile will seem easier by comparison.

Now that's the average gain, but the majority of the gain occurs in a few short hills in NYC. The first appears to be about 150 ft in the first mile with a 250 ft decent in the second mile. Then Mile 15 shows a hill that's about 125 ft in 0.75 miles, and mile 23 looks like 100 ft in 0.5 miles. So to be better prepared for those, I'd look for tall hills in your area at about a mile in length and ideally in the 100-150 ft increase. Do these on loops on a long run where say every 3-5 miles you incorporate that 100-150 ft mile long hill in. So 3 miles flat-ish, and then big hill in mile 4. Then loop around and do that same 4 mile loop again. This will get you used to rolling tall hills as well. I'd focus on this in either long runs or sustained marathon tempo runs.

 

[Kerry1957]

Many of us on these Boards have been very happy with the specialized plans from @DopeyBadger. DM him for more information.

 

[SPINster]

NYC runner here-

I've done both free and paid. The paid one was through Run Smart, which is an NYC-based group, they can definitely give you a training plan that is geared towards the NYC Marathon.

The nice thing about buying a plan is you can adapt it for future races as well, as you get more experience you learn what works/doesn't work.

Also check out local running groups, often they have a marathon training program, sometimes paid, sometimes free.

As far as the hills in NY-the biggest/longest one is at the start, so you don't really feel that one, the long down hill miles 2-3 can wreck you though if you go too fast. Other than that, the hills are in the back half of the race, so you want to keep that in mind for your long training runs and practice. People talk about the Queensborough bridge at mile 15, but the hill at mile 23 is the absolute worst, mentally. It's not very steep but it last for half a mile and really messes with you. If you have supporters, position them around 5th and 100th to help you through.

The pacers at the NYC marathon are absolutely incredible, highly recommend running with them, even if it's only for part of the race. It's very competitive to be chosen as a pacer, so they have a LOT of experience.

 

[SimbaMufasa321]

@SimbaMufasa321

Here are some old posts of mine that cover many of the topics surrounding choosing a marathon training plan. I'll echo others with my recommendation is to find a marathon training plan that best fits your fitness and availability to commit to. General marathon training plan recommendations:

Train slow to race fast: Why running more slowly and capping the long run at 2.5 hours may dramatically improve your performance
Why should your average training pace be much much slower than your goal half marathon pace?
Why am I doing this run? The question every runner should be asking themselves.
The Marathon is 99% Aerobic (and 95% for HM and so on): So how to train for it!
Advice for Newbies #1
Advice for Newbies #2
Advice for Newbies #3
Advice for Newbies #4
Advice for Newbies #5



RIght, so the root of the question is "will I get a better training experience from a free plan or a plan I have to pay for?" The answer is, it depends. Depends on the things already tossed around before about commitment. As a well followed free plan will probably yield better results than a loosely followed paid plan. If it's simply a paid plan without any other person on the other side that helps you navigate things, then it's probably a little more advanced than the plans you can typically find for free, but really doesn't have that ability to know how to alter things. There are some adaptive plans out there that use tech to help navigate the decision making process, but I'm not well versed in those. Lastly, there's custom plans written by a coach, and then they're available to coach you through the plan and evaluate what's happening along the way, making changes and such. If you find the right coach for you, you're mostly likely to yield the best results from a coach, but it typically comes at the highest cost comparatively.

As for NYC, it looks like the total elevation gain is 810 feet (31 ft/mile). So start there and compare a route of 31 ft/mile to what you normally train on. If you're currently doing your easy, long runs, tempos on less than 31 ft/mile, then try and find new routes that'll bump that average up. If you can get comfortable with 40-50 ft/mile training routes, then 31 ft/mile will seem easier by comparison.

Now that's the average gain, but the majority of the gain occurs in a few short hills in NYC. The first appears to be about 150 ft in the first mile with a 250 ft decent in the second mile. Then Mile 15 shows a hill that's about 125 ft in 0.75 miles, and mile 23 looks like 100 ft in 0.5 miles. So to be better prepared for those, I'd look for tall hills in your area at about a mile in length and ideally in the 100-150 ft increase. Do these on loops on a long run where say every 3-5 miles you incorporate that 100-150 ft mile long hill in. So 3 miles flat-ish, and then big hill in mile 4. Then loop around and do that same 4 mile loop again. This will get you used to rolling tall hills as well. I'd focus on this in either long runs or sustained marathon tempo runs.

Thank you so much! This is so helpful. Will read through all of these posts for sure.

 

[SimbaMufasa321]

NYC runner here-

I've done both free and paid. The paid one was through Run Smart, which is an NYC-based group, they can definitely give you a training plan that is geared towards the NYC Marathon.

The nice thing about buying a plan is you can adapt it for future races as well, as you get more experience you learn what works/doesn't work.

Also check out local running groups, often they have a marathon training program, sometimes paid, sometimes free.

As far as the hills in NY-the biggest/longest one is at the start, so you don't really feel that one, the long down hill miles 2-3 can wreck you though if you go too fast. Other than that, the hills are in the back half of the race, so you want to keep that in mind for your long training runs and practice. People talk about the Queensborough bridge at mile 15, but the hill at mile 23 is the absolute worst, mentally. It's not very steep but it last for half a mile and really messes with you. If you have supporters, position them around 5th and 100th to help you through.

The pacers at the NYC marathon are absolutely incredible, highly recommend running with them, even if it's only for part of the race. It's very competitive to be chosen as a pacer, so they have a LOT of experience.

Thanks for this insight. I was focussed on the first hill but hadn't thought about the ones later on. Will definitely use a pacer as well if I feel like I need a boost!

 

[The Expert]

If anyone reading this is on Team Not-So-Fast and also looking for training advice, REI posted a nice article today about training for a longer-duration marathon: https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/marathon-training-over-5-hours.html

 

[SPINster]

Thanks for this insight. I was focussed on the first hill but hadn't thought about the ones later on. Will definitely use a pacer as well if I feel like I need a boost!

Honestly the hardest part about the first hill is not sprinting it, because your adrenaline is going to be crazy.

FYI there's three different starting lines-Orange, Blue, Green. Orange and Blue start on the upper level of the bridge, Green is on the lower level. If you have a green start, the climb is a lot smaller. But you don't get the amazing view. Recently there's been 5 start waves, if you are assigned Green and want the "better" view, you can move back a wave and to a different color.

As someone who has done NYC a bunch of times, there's things I like about the Green start, it's less crowded, more chill. But if you want that big NYC feel, with the fire boats and New York, New York blasting, moving back a wave is worth it.

 

[flav]

Everything that has been said about NYC is so accurate.

We moved back a wave/corral to start on top of the bridge, we were running this as tourists to enjoy the experience and the views. It is exciting to finally be running, at 11AM when we had to be awake at 4AM. Luckily, there was no wind when we were on the Verrazano.

The first half there is so much crowd support, it is hard to slow down. Hill wise, we did not find the other bridges difficult. That slow climb on 5th Avenue before entering Central Park is what got me but it doesn’t look like anything on the elevation map.

It is definitely worth training for, so you can truly enjoy it!