Physics Before Chemistry and Biology?

[becka]

I work up this morning listening to the local news radio and they were discussing the decision to change the typical progression of science classes in high school. Typically incoming freshman begin with Biology and work their way up to Chemistry and then Physics. The spokesperson for the school district they were talking to said "recent" developments in science led them to believe that they actually had things backwards. They said that Biology required a lot of chemistry knowledge for things like microbiology and since in chemistry we now have atoms and particles physics was necessary to understand chemistry. Starting next year incoming freshman will now take Physics and then move on to Chemistry and finally Biology.

Now it has been a while since I took these classes but I can't believe this is a good thing. I took Physics as a HS Senior and there was a great deal of math involved including math you would find at the Algebra II and Trig level. In fact in my HS class we actually spent several days at the beginning of the year on Trig in preparation for the math we would be required to do. How is a HS freshman who is most likely just starting Algebra I ever going to be able to do the math required? Are they going to remove the math from Physics?

Chemistry does have some overlap with Physics but I (and my chemist DH) would disagree that you need an entire year course before you take a HS chemistry class. The physics principles can be taught along the way. In fact my DH has a bachelors in chemistry and has never taken a separate Physics course and he understands atoms and particles just fine. This atom thing is not a "recent" development.....

Biology has some overlap with both Chem and Physics but so much of it is terms and memorization that I can't help but thing it still belongs at the Freshman level of the three.

Has anyone else's school district done something like this? I don't have kids in school yet and we are a long way from taking Chemistry and Physics but I really feel this is a bad idea for the kids. Anyone have any opinions?

 

[Pop Daddy]

long post

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

In college level Biology (for science majors) I always felt that having Organic Chem first would have been the way to go.

I had it the traditional Biology-Chemistry-Physics way. I think loading students up with Physics and, very likely, Algebra I their freshmen year is going to do wonders to their GPAs. I wouldn't be surprised if there's not much pomp and circumstance in a few years when they change the order again...probably back to the traditional progression.

For me, freshmen year of highschool was awful with Algebra I and Latin. I have always excelled in science, so that never presented an issue for me, but I know my roommate struggled to no end with it. At least she was in German (and lived in Germany as I child) and did well in Math. She only had the Bio to really contend with. They couldn't have matched us up better as roommates though! What she did well in, I struggled with and vice versa.

 

[lindalinda]

I think they must be going to "dumb down" the physics courses then. It sounds like by putting it first , all the students will get it. This might make the school look good...like they have a higher percentage of advanced science students? There are a lot of physics concepts that can be taught without the higher math, but the course itself cant possible pack the punch of one that uses higher math. Maybe there will be an advanced course option for later?

 

[diznygirl]

Any way you slice, it's still darn hard!!!

 

[The Mystery Machine]

As far as I am concerned they can throw out Biology. They take it over & over in Middle School. It is dumb, I mean really silly to even take it in HS. It is like PE.

I can see it. Esp. for someone like my dd who wants to major in Science. She would prefer to be able to add another Science class.

 

[KelNottAt]

My DS will enter 9th grade in the fall. Our school system has applied the "Physics First" methodology at a few schools on a trial basis for about 3 years. Starting with DS's class, it becomes official system-wide cirriculum.

But, here it's a little different. 9th graders take Physics and Chem simultaneously. One on "A" day and one on "B". Bio comes in 10th grade. So, essentially, all science credits are complete by the end of 10th grade. Kids headed into a science-based college path will use 11th and 12th grade to take Physics, Chem, Bio, at level II or AP.

HS graduation requires a minimum score on statewide standardized tests in Algebra I, Eng I, Government, and Bio I. Since a lot of kids say Bio is hard, maybe that's why they wait a year and hope for the aid of maturity.

I really don't have any objections to the Physics First concept.

 

[noodleknitter]

As far as I am concerned they can throw out Biology. They take it over & over in Middle School. It is dumb, I mean really silly to even take it in HS. It is like PE.

I can see it. Esp. for someone like my dd who wants to major in Science. She would prefer to be able to add another Science class.

If your bio class is like a Middle School class, I would be discussing it with the school system. The schools in our area do General Science in 7th, Physical Science in 8th, and Biology in 9th. It is a hardcore Biology class, college prep, etc.

 

[becka]

I guess my main concern is that they would be "dumbing" down the Physics course in order to teach it to 9th graders without the math background. We are only talking about HS Physics here but still there is quite a bit of algebra required and these students simply will not have that background here. They can teach theory but application will go out the window which IMHO is a bad thing. I had Alg I, II and Geometry before I went into Physics and I was taking Trig at the same time and I was at a disadvantage in my class because I did not already know as much Trig as was required for the application problems. How are they going to teach that to 9th graders?

My guess is that Physics will really become more of a "Physical Science" class that does not really delve into the specifics and just deals with the theories on the surface and I think that is a shame because there is so much more they could learn if they would wait until these kids had more math.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

If your bio class is like a Middle School class, I would be discussing it with the school system. The schools in our area do General Science in 7th, Physical Science in 8th, and Biology in 9th. It is a hardcore Biology class, college prep, etc.

That is why we moved out of Missouri. It was a joke. They made the 9th graders take "Unified Science"..gimme a break.
Only the "gifted" kids got to take Biology in 9th grade, no exceptions.

So we moved and she took Pre-AP Biology in 9th grade.

I would love to change the High School system. But it isn't going to happen. So we moved.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I thought you needed advance math to be able to do Physics. I cannot see how a student would have the math knowledge to complete Physics at the sophomore or freshman level.

It ain't physics they'd be learning. (okay it would be concepts--but it wouldn't be a true physics course).

 

[Sandy V.]

At our high school, you have to complete Algebra II and Trig before you can take Physics. DS took Biology last year as a sophomore and will take both Physics and Chemistry this next year as a junior. He can then choose from AP Biology, AP Chemistry, or AP Physics his senior year.

I've known the Physics instructor for years and he told me that in order to grasp the concepts and solve the problems, you need to have a solid foundation in math first. Makes sense to me.

So . . . I like the status quo of the sciences progression and see no reason to change it.

 

[noodleknitter]

I guess my main concern is that they would be "dumbing" down the Physics course in order to teach it to 9th graders without the math background. We are only talking about HS Physics here but still there is quite a bit of algebra required and these students simply will not have that background here. They can teach theory but application will go out the window which IMHO is a bad thing. I had Alg I, II and Geometry before I went into Physics and I was taking Trig at the same time and I was at a disadvantage in my class because I did not already know as much Trig as was required for the application problems. How are they going to teach that to 9th graders?

My guess is that Physics will really become more of a "Physical Science" class that does not really delve into the specifics and just deals with the theories on the surface and I think that is a shame because there is so much more they could learn if they would wait until these kids had more math.

That would be terrible! I know the physics class at our college fails about 53% the first time around, and this is a top 100 college. If you dumb down the HS physics, I would think they would be doomed!

 

[BeNJeNWaFFLe]

For them to teach physics without that basis in math, I believe they would have to dumb it down. Maybe they would teach the simple concepts. Physics requires a lot of algebra and some calculus if you take it a little further. To understand some of the concepts you need to see the mathematical basis for the equations. I just don't see how 9th graders who haven't taken even one algebra course are going to understand physics. There is a difference between being able to spit out formulas and understanding how to use those formulas.

 

[declansdad]

As far as I am concerned they can throw out Biology. They take it over & over in Middle School. It is dumb, I mean really silly to even take it in HS. It is like PE.

I can see it. Esp. for someone like my dd who wants to major in Science. She would prefer to be able to add another Science class.

Biology and PE are dumb? It's covered in middle school but not to the point that it needs to be. PE should be mandatory for everyone at all grade levels.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Biology and PE are dumb? It's covered in middle school but not to the point that it needs to be. PE should be mandatory for everyone at all grade levels.

No, not what I mean...I mean the way her previous school taught was dumb. Again, this is why I left.
All through middle school for 3 years they did the same thing over & over in Science. It was pointless. Schools in my previous area are totally "dumbed-down".

I did not call PE dumb. PE is great if you like it. While you find it "mandatory", I do not for High School.
I am so so so GLAD that I moved! She is able to count her Marching Band as part of her PE requirement here in Texas.
Couldn't do that in her previous school.

 

[bekkiz]

Most of the private schools in my (old) area taught physics first. The school that I taught at (one of the top privates in the country) began the physics first program about 4 or 5 years ago. Most of the freshman were in Geometry or Algebra 2, so math was not such a problem. Most of the educational research shows that the kids do much better in chem and bio with a background in physics.

 

[declansdad]

No, not what I mean...I mean the way her previous school taught was dumb. Again, this is why I left.
All through middle school for 3 years they did the same thing over & over in Science. It was pointless. Schools in my previous area are totally "dumbed-down".

I did not call PE dumb. PE is great if you like it. While you find it "mandatory", I do not for High School.
I am so so so GLAD that I moved! She is able to count her Marching Band as part of her PE requirement here in Texas.
Couldn't do that in her previous school.

Thanks for clearing up the biology comment but we still disagree on the PE issue. Many North Americans are over-weight and out-of-shape to a certain degree. A contributing factor to this problem is the lack of PE in schools.

 

[Maleficent13]

Thanks for clearing up the biology comment but we still disagree on the PE issue. Many North Americans are over-weight and out-of-shape to a certain degree. A contributing factor to this problem is the lack of PE in schools.

Find a way to make PE a helpful, useful and non-embarrassing course for jr high/high school students, and I'll be right behind you. But I never really figured out how dodgeball and squaredancing were any of those things.

As to the OP, I agree. You've got to have the math to truly get the physics. Reversing the order does not make sense to me, but then, as in the case of PE, no one's asking me.

 

[catherine]

DD goes to high school in the UK, she's 12 (they start high school at 11 here) they do chemistry, biology and physics from the beginning. She started doing algebra in primary school at 10. I think that is pretty standard for the schools here.