Permit Filed: France Pavilion at Epcot

[amberpi]

Considering all the development problems they've had...I'm not sure there IS a series.

Harry Potter never had that issue...

Because HP was already written...and perfect

I'm just saying - there were HOW many American Idol episodes and a thingie at DHS, there's no depending on pop culture to discern if something is amazing (like HP) or a dumpster fire.

 

[amberpi]

Back to France...sorry I have gotten so horribly off course here...this one is a doozy

France seems locked in according to the news...what's up with the rest of WS?

 

[HydroGuy]

OK, I am going to say definitely on topic. I did not care for the Ratatouille movie. Maybe the ride is good though? They have one at DLRP?

And the movie in the France pavilion is still kind of enjoyable but very tired. I would not mind to see it go.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

OK, I am going to say definitely on topic. I did not care for the Ratatouille movie. Maybe the ride is good though? They have one at DLRP?

And the movie in the France pavilion is still kind of enjoyable but very tired. I would not mind to see it go.

I think ratatouille was one of the best efforts Pixar ever made...

Along with Wall E and Up...

It's nice to be able to do a story for the sake of the story...not for tie ins.

Not that I don't love the others...but those 3 seem the most Avant Garde in my opinion

 

[OSUZorba]

I think the reality is that a lot of people saw the movie...
But considering how many tickets were sold...it had near ZERO staying power.

When have you ever seen a mega box office grosser marketed less than Avatar? I can't think of a one...

I think a huge part of the problem is everyone saw it and liked it due to 3D, at the time it was released to DVD, you couldn't watch 3D at home. Every person I knew who saw it in the theater said it was not worth seeing unless it was in 3D. In a lot of ways it was like going back to the time before VHS, for this one movie.

As for the Star Wars comparisons, nearly everyone can give you a basic storyline recap, even if they were born well after the original trilogy came out.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Right...but Pocahontas and dances with wolves is more memorable on plotpoints...and ferngully is no slouch either

You know, I think fern gully might actually have more of a fan base than avatar. At least among people my age (30s). I have had very few friends rave about avatar yet several could quote fern gully and know all th characters names....

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You know, I think fern gully might actually have more of a fan base than avatar. At least among people my age (30s). I have had very few friends rave about avatar yet several could quote fern gully and know all th characters names....

I've never seen any evidence to dispute this...

The worst counter argument was "it leads in Facebook likes for a movie"...

That basically proves how mindless Facebook likes are.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think a huge part of the problem is everyone saw it and liked it due to 3D, at the time it was released to DVD, you couldn't watch 3D at home. Every person I knew who saw it in the theater said it was not worth seeing unless it was in 3D. In a lot of ways it was like going back to the time before VHS, for this one movie.

As for the Star Wars comparisons, nearly everyone can give you a basic storyline recap, even if they were born well after the original trilogy came out.

Right...because one is a franchise and the other was a popcorn movie that went completely off the rails for a specific snapshot in time.

 

[jade1]

I think a huge part of the problem is everyone saw it and liked it due to 3D, at the time it was released to DVD, you couldn't watch 3D at home. Every person I knew who saw it in the theater said it was not worth seeing unless it was in 3D. In a lot of ways it was like going back to the time before VHS, for this one movie..

Agreed. Half the point was simply the amazing visuals it provided, even better in 3D and IMAX.

Only thing better would be in real life. Hmmmm.

 

[beer dave]

I think every thread should touch on how the issue at hand relates to overall Disney strategy, leadership, history and international park comparisons. Don't you?

um... no.

 

[DanBoris]

Maybe I did not say it very clearly or maybe you misunderstood. Or maybe some of both. I did not mean to imply that people would remember the details of the movie 8 years later. That is hardly the case with any movie. I meant that a lot of people really liked it (and connected with it) - which (to me) means they did not consider it "a forgettable movie" at the time.

Heck, Gone With the Wind is another movie sometimes considered the top box office movie of all time. Few if any would call it forgettable. But I remember the main plot points of that about as well as Avatar. Being forgettable and not being able to remember all the main plots points are not the same thing.

This is where we differ, I don't believe "a lot of people connect with it". Personally I really liked the movie, saw it twice in the theaters, but it hasn't stayed with me. I bought the Blueray but never watched it, I used to flip in on occasionally when it's on TV but I don't even do that anymore. I just don't think it had much cultural staying power. With that said, I think the land was a great idea and will stand on it's own despite people's feeling about the movie.

 

[jade1]

I think the land was a great idea and will stand on it's own despite people's feeling about the movie.

Exactly what I think as well.

Its a visually stunning planet with people that care about the environment you can ride dragons on-nuff said.

 

[George4]

...or DAK for that matter...

I think the conversation will be starting very soon once the avatar dust starts to settle that involves the question: "ok, now what?"

I suspected that from the start...avatar and rivers of light is not gonna bring the kind of all day crowds they need from an operational standpoint...

They need another major land expansion and probably to gut dinoland and tweak Asia to make if a true full day park and have business commensurate with it.

We're at Disney right now, and it took us just over a day to do everything at DAK, and that was with fast passes for Pandora. I think it is a full day now if you are willing to do what is in the park. The challenge comes in when you have families that don't cover the age range that ours does. We cover from 6-16 and us and grandparents this time around. We did everything and enjoyed it. But most families won't do the little rides and the big rides because their family doesn't need it. Add the 3rd ride to Pandora, bring in an attraction or 2 in Africa that aren't tours of animals, bring in 2-3 attractions in Asia is what it really will take to make a full day park for everyone, regardless of age. Those attractions don't all need to be $250 million behemoth's either. I firmly believe every addition should A-ticket through E-ticket added before another E-ticket is added. There seems to be a huge fixation on E-ticket rides right now, and are leaving young families to sit in line for hours for their rides, and they are the ones you need to get into the shops and restaurants and out of the lines.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

We're at Disney right now, and it took us just over a day to do everything at DAK, and that was with fast passes for Pandora. I think it is a full day now if you are willing to do what is in the park. The challenge comes in when you have families that don't cover the age range that ours does. We cover from 6-16 and us and grandparents this time around. We did everything and enjoyed it. But most families won't do the little rides and the big rides because their family doesn't need it. Add the 3rd ride to Pandora, bring in an attraction or 2 in Africa that aren't tours of animals, bring in 2-3 attractions in Asia is what it really will take to make a full day park for everyone, regardless of age. Those attractions don't all need to be $250 million behemoth's either. I firmly believe every addition should A-ticket through E-ticket added before another E-ticket is added. There seems to be a huge fixation on E-ticket rides right now, and are leaving young families to sit in line for hours for their rides, and they are the ones you need to get into the shops and restaurants and out of the lines.

Hmmm...interesting...

You haven't addressed the repeat appeal of much of AK though...which can be a problem.

I don't see a fixation on E tickets...or thrill rides as U-M suggested...

I kinda see the opposite...rejecting real E ride technology to dress
Up Cs and Ds and try to make everything universal (no pun intended)...that's another problem. They aren't embracing "thrills" or really family experiences and are instead trying to drop everything into some kind of zone in the middle...

 

[George4]

Hmmm...interesting...

You haven't addressed the repeat appeal of much of AK though...which can be a problem.

I don't see a fixation on E tickets...or thrill rides as U-M suggested...

I kinda see the opposite...rejecting real E ride technology to dress
Up Cs and Ds and try to make everything universal (no pun intended)...that's another problem. They aren't embracing "thrills" or really family experiences and are instead trying to drop everything into some kind of zone in the middle...

I don't disagree about repeatability within a single visit. We only went once, and we will only go once, but it took a whole day. As for the current expansions, I'm not counting the dumb overlay's as new rides. You are correct about them. But of the recent editions: SDMT (E), Little Mermaid (A), Star Tours Update (E), SWL (E), TSL (A adn E, maybe D), Pandora (A and E). That is a dominance of E-tickets from my perspective, not counting the overlay's (Frozen). If you include the rumors, UoE (E), Mission:Space (E); France (D or E) and so on. It's even worse. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but that's a lot of E-tickets for new additions to the parks.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Hmmm...interesting...

You haven't addressed the repeat appeal of much of AK though...which can be a problem.

I don't see a fixation on E tickets...or thrill rides as U-M suggested...

I kinda see the opposite...rejecting real E ride technology to dress
Up Cs and Ds and try to make everything universal (no pun intended)...that's another problem. They aren't embracing "thrills" or really family experiences and are instead trying to drop everything into some kind of zone in the middle...

Where do you see that?

I think FoP is closer to thrill ride than not (along the same lines as the hp broom ride thing, which definitely qualifies as a thrill ride). And if you're referring to Frozen, I don't think Disney considers that an E ticket at all. It's just a hugely popular kiddy ride. The technology makes it it expensive too- I don't think it was a cheap redo.

But I'd argue all are pretty family friendly, which is their goal anyway. E-ride doesn't mean thrill ride at Disney because they aren't really in the thrill ride business.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Where do you see that?

I think FoP is closer to thrill ride than not (along the same lines as the hp broom ride thing, which definitely qualifies as a thrill ride). And if you're referring to Frozen, I don't think Disney considers that an E ticket at all. It's just a hugely popular kiddy ride. The technology makes it it expensive too- I don't think it was a cheap redo.

But I'd argue all are pretty family friendly, which is their goal anyway. E-ride doesn't mean thrill ride at Disney because they aren't really in the thrill ride business.

I think soarin, midway mania, mine train, avatar and all the proposed mgm work falls into that category. Trying to pack mass crowds while not pushing the technological or creative envelope enough. Simulators are just that: simulators...And trackless are going to go in by the handfuls.

I'm not advocating hurlatrons...but they need an occasional ride that is designed around motion...which honestly has never been greenlit in Florida under the current management.

 

[Phicinfan]

Hmmm...interesting...

You haven't addressed the repeat appeal of much of AK though...which can be a problem.

I don't see a fixation on E tickets...or thrill rides as U-M suggested...

I kinda see the opposite...rejecting real E ride technology to dress
Up Cs and Ds and try to make everything universal (no pun intended)...that's another problem. They aren't embracing "thrills" or really family experiences and are instead trying to drop everything into some kind of zone in the middle...

I don't think you will get a real feel of repeatability until the crowds and the "newness" of the land calm down. No one loves it enough to stand in line that long, just to do it again in a little while. I agree though, in a year or so, how crowded this will remain. My gut says it will, and will do well, but only time really tells

 

[nkosiek]

Hmmm...interesting...

You haven't addressed the repeat appeal of much of AK though...which can be a problem.

I don't see a fixation on E tickets...or thrill rides as U-M suggested...

I kinda see the opposite...rejecting real E ride technology to dress
Up Cs and Ds and try to make everything universal (no pun intended)...that's another problem. They aren't embracing "thrills" or really family experiences and are instead trying to drop everything into some kind of zone in the middle...

The one thing I think you are either purposely forgetting or just don't realize is the emotional attachment to much of MK by people who grew up with it when they were younger. The kids who go to Pandora today are the ones who are going to determine repeatability. If those kids love it, mom and dad will gladly (maybe not in the tropical humidity that is AK) stand in line for a second go around. Those same kids are hopefully going to grow up and want to take their kids on it.

Of course that circles around to your other constant point...will those kids be able to afford to go in 20 years.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The one thing I think you are either purposely forgetting or just don't realize is the emotional attachment to much of MK by people who grew up with it when they were younger. The kids who go to Pandora today are the ones who are going to determine repeatability. If those kids love it, mom and dad will gladly (maybe not in the tropical humidity that is AK) stand in line for a second go around. Those same kids are hopefully going to grow up and want to take their kids on it.

Of course that circles around to your other constant point...will those kids be able to afford to go in 20 years.

Point granted.

And that is the "bad IP" argument. Avatar is the weakest IP you'll find from the one thing that Disney monitors the most: product placement.

Seen a lot of Na'vi lunchboxes getting off the bus?