Permit Filed: France Pavilion at Epcot

[lockedoutlogic]

Here's one unknown I think on Avatar, since there are a ton of the movies still to come out, that IP could grow substantially. I still thought the movie was a pretty Fern Gully, but I think the IP value will only be understood in future years.

Here's the litmus test:

Ask anyone you know to describe the plot to avatar...or see if anyone has watched it in the last 5 year...

...there's your answers on the strength of the IP

 

[afan]

No...for someone that was in the park before it opened...through the early years...till today, in just stating the obvious realities.

Stand by the exit from 12 ish to 2 pm...the place dumps...and the people filter off. That's still a gigantic operational issue.

Why? Because it costs so damn much. That's the problem...the operational costs for AK is likely the highest of any disney park...Epcot is another likely guess.

MK posts 20 mil in annual visitors...but the other three are almost even. Mgm is the cheapest and it can't pull what AK or Epcot does because of the overhead.

Wdw operations needs EPCOT and AK to be in the 15 range. And in 3 years...they'll be the bottom 2 and the others will be ahead.

That's upside down...it's a longterm headeache...and it will have to change. If they are going to expect loads of profit as espn collapses (they do)...can't have that stay as is on the statistics sheet. The street doesn't like that.

AK still needs a large (10 figures) commitment if they are gonna peel off/attract enough new business into the place to justify the realities of it.

I've seen it said before and people don't get a good reaction from it but it's a half day park because aside from the safari, half the park is a zoo. I can go to two fantastic zoos within 45 minutes of my house and a northwest wildlife park with a tram ride within an hour so I can see most of those and other animals at home. Have I walked around and seen all the animals, yes I have and it's fun, but it's not something I want to do every trip. I'll do the safari each trip though.

I've also seen Lion King and Nemo and I'm good with not seeing them each trip, or again really because they aren't my cup of tea. That leaves me with Everest, Dinosaur, Tough to be a Bug (cause it is cute) character meets and wandering to look at stuff because I'm not getting wet on Kali. So for people that have similar thoughts on any of the above, of course it's a half day park. We had hoppers last trip and went two different days, one evening so we could see the tree awaken and then on our last day which we knew we'd only have a half a day. It was enough for us to do and see what we wanted, but added up it wasn't a full day.

It's a well done park, is fun and if I had kids there would be reason to spend more time there because I'm obviously not doing a lot of what they would do, but with the other three parks having so much more to do that I can't do at home, I spend less time at AK.

 

[HydroGuy]

Here's the litmus test:

Ask anyone you know to describe the plot to avatar...or see if anyone has watched it in the last 5 year...

...there's your answers on the strength of the IP

You may be right about people's memory but I disagree that that is a fair litmus test. The future will tell. We all know that Avatar is the current box office champion by most folk's count. That means something. I don't think you are accounting for that. There is a reason it is #1 and it is not because people found it to be forgettable. If Disney built Pandora and there were no more films in the pipeline then I think you may have a point. But the upcoming films will at minimum refresh the franchise and, if Cameron is successful, re-energize the franchise and remind folks of why they made Avatar #1 in the first place. That will play into Disney and AK's hand.

 

[rungoofy]

And for you Nancy's out there...

...every theme park discussion is at least partly about what the management is or isn't doing...that isn't gonna change until a recession hits...

...then it will revert to free dining discussion 24/7

Yup... got to about page two staying on topic before:

Arrendale to Eisner to Hunchback to Animal Kingdom

I'm guessing that we do in fact get to free dining before we get back on topic.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yup... got to about page two staying on topic before:

Arrendale to Eisner to Hunchback to Animal Kingdom

I'm guessing that we do in fact get to free dining before we get back on topic.

Anybody hear anything? My TA will apply the code...looking to "save" a little so I can upgrade to 10 nights at the poly...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You may be right about people's memory but I disagree that that is a fair litmus test. The future will tell. We all know that Avatar is the current box office champion by most folk's count. That means something. I don't think you are accounting for that. There is a reason it is #1 and it is not because people found it to be forgettable. If Disney built Pandora and there were no more films in the pipeline then I think you may have a point. But the upcoming films will at minimum refresh the franchise and, if Cameron is successful, re-energize the franchise and remind folks of why they made Avatar #1 in the first place. That will play into Disney and AK's hand.

I did...avatar ran in the rarest of 6 month blocks with no tent poles (which never happens anymore) and when the new 3D craze exploded.

James Cameron is the luckiest SOB in Hollywood history...I can remember another of his movies who's main competitor was Kevin Costner's The Postman...
...I'm not kidding there.

Avatar had no product, no legs, nothing to attach people to...
...it's the Anti-Empire Strikes Back.

Not only that...how hard is it to get franchise movies made in today's Hollywood?

Like not at all...how many ninja turtle movies are getting made?

And Cameron has had a hell of a time getting avatar sequels made...like nobody wants to play.

The only place he sold it was to an amusement park about a week after hardy potter opened big. Or is that just a kawinky?

 

[DanBoris]

There is a reason it is #1 and it is not because people found it to be forgettable.

That statement is not logical. It is #1 because a lot of people saw it, which doesn't mean they remember it.

 

[Moliphino]

Here's the litmus test:

Ask anyone you know to describe the plot to avatar...or see if anyone has watched it in the last 5 year...

...there's your answers on the strength of the IP

Well the plot's easy. It basically the same as Pocahontas, Fern Gully, and Dances With Wolves.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well the plot's easy. It basically the same as Pocahontas, Fern Gully, and Dances With Wolves.

Right...but Pocahontas and dances with wolves is more memorable on plotpoints...and ferngully is no slouch either

 

[Moliphino]

No offense Moliphino, but I think Hunchback is a lousy movie. It's boring, the hour and 35 minute runtime felt like an eternity. It feels more like a broadway play than a family film. Despite the fact that they tossed in the gargoyles to still appear as one. I don't think it is suitable for children or even some adults.

Frollo is too sexually obsessed with Esmeralda. The scenes where he sings of his torment would be strange even in a Tarantino musical. Plus I quickly lose my sympathy for Quasimodo, he's just a punching bag for most of it. I kinda wished Frollo just tossed him in the river at the beginning.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I could do without the gargoyles (the attempt at making it family friendly), but aside from them I love the whole thing. The music is some of the best ever in a Disney movie (aside from "A Guy Like You" - because it's the lone song in the attempt for family friendliness). I would love it if Stephen Schwartz did another Disney movie (he also did Pocahontas, which has amazing music though it isn't the least historically accurate).

 

[Moliphino]

Right...but Pocahontas and dances with wolves is more memorable on plotpoints...and ferngully is no slouch either

I have to admit I fell asleep watching Avatar, so I've never even seen the whole thing. I'm still excited to see the land - whether that excitement lasts for future visits remains to be seen.

 

[HydroGuy]

That statement is not logical. It is #1 because a lot of people saw it, which doesn't mean they remember it.

Maybe I did not say it very clearly or maybe you misunderstood. Or maybe some of both. I did not mean to imply that people would remember the details of the movie 8 years later. That is hardly the case with any movie. I meant that a lot of people really liked it (and connected with it) - which (to me) means they did not consider it "a forgettable movie" at the time.

Heck, Gone With the Wind is another movie sometimes considered the top box office movie of all time. Few if any would call it forgettable. But I remember the main plot points of that about as well as Avatar. Being forgettable and not being able to remember all the main plots points are not the same thing.

 

[amberpi]

Right...but Pocahontas and dances with wolves is more memorable on plotpoints...and ferngully is no slouch either

I agree regarding the merits of the movie. I just don't think we will fully understand the value of the IP until the series is finished. They could be amazing movies with characters anyone remembers...so far, not so much, but who knows? WDW may have bet on the next Star Wars - but I go to sci fi conventions and people aren't lining up as Avatar characters. Pop culture is weird though.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree regarding the merits of the movie. I just don't think we will fully understand the value of the IP until the series is finished. They could be amazing movies with characters anyone remembers...so far, not so much, but who knows? WDW may have bet on the next Star Wars - but I go to sci fi conventions and people aren't lining up as Avatar characters. Pop culture is weird though.

Considering all the development problems they've had...I'm not sure there IS a series.

Harry Potter never had that issue...

 

[HydroGuy]

Well the plot's easy. It basically the same as Pocahontas, Fern Gully, and Dances With Wolves.

Yep, and Star Wars has basically the same plot as many old western movies. Bad guy tries to take over. Good guys try to stop him. Kid who lost this father overcomes the odds and becomes a hero. Still a decent movie.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Maybe I did not say it very clearly or maybe you misunderstood. Or maybe some of both. I did not mean to imply that people would remember the details of the movie 8 years later. That is hardly the case with any movie. I meant that a lot of people really liked it (and connected with it) - which (to me) means they did not consider it "a forgettable movie" at the time.

Heck, Gone With the Wind is another movie sometimes considered the top box office movie of all time. Few if any would call it forgettable. But I remember the main plot points of that about as well as Avatar. Being forgettable and not being able to remember all the main plots points are not the same thing.

I think the reality is that a lot of people saw the movie...
But considering how many tickets were sold...it had near ZERO staying power.

When have you ever seen a mega box office grosser marketed less than Avatar? I can't think of a one...

 

[HydroGuy]

I did...avatar ran in the rarest of 6 month blocks with no tent poles (which never happens anymore) and when the new 3D craze exploded.

James Cameron is the luckiest SOB in Hollywood history...I can remember another of his movies who's main competitor was Kevin Costner's The Postman...
...I'm not kidding there.

Avatar had no product, no legs, nothing to attach people to...
...it's the Anti-Empire Strikes Back.

Not only that...how hard is it to get franchise movies made in today's Hollywood?

Like not at all...how many ninja turtle movies are getting made?

And Cameron has had a hell of a time getting avatar sequels made...like nobody wants to play.

The only place he sold it was to an amusement park about a week after hardy potter opened big. Or is that just a kawinky?

I have to say this is the first time I have heard Cameron called lucky for having created the top two box office movies of all time.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yep, and Star Wars has basically the same plot as many old western movies. Bad guy tries to take over. Good guys try to stop him. Kid who lost this father overcomes the odds and becomes a hero. Still a decent movie.

You forgot the part about some of the most worldwide iconic/recognizable characters in the history of showbiz...
...but who's worrying about "details", huh?

If you're trying to say avatar is just like "any other IP"...it's been tried...many have tried since disney shacked up with Cameron...

...frankly none have succeeded.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I have to say this is the first time I have heard Cameron called lucky for having created the top two box office movies of all time.

Both had no competition...and that's just the way it played out. Titanic was rightfully a big movie...it had the right people at the right time. Avatar was "spectacle" in a soft market.

Both enjoyed not being challenged - frankly.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Back to France...sorry I have gotten so horribly off course here...this one is a doozy