Permit Filed: France Pavilion at Epcot

Yeah, I definitely think Animal Kingdom is a full day park.

1. Stand in line for 3 hours for "Flight of Passage"
2. then 2 hours for "River Journey"
3. watch some Gorilla scratch himself
and 3 shows and more I didn't feel like listing. Yeah.

Cherry on top, you can also watch a bunch of hippies hitting a drum unrhythmically in Pandora.

I don't think you'll see 3 hour waits in avatar for long...that's the IP effect. Mine train is silly...but it's smack dab behind the castle next to some princess buffets...so the setting determines a lot in disneydom.
 
That was the original goal of the park to make it feel like a jungle and just happening upon things. Except you can't make a whole park with zero signs Mr. Eisner

Exactly...disney customers aren't that bright...and are way more mentally lazy than they were back in olden days...
 
Because the numbers say it isn't/hasn't been.

It has nothing to do with personal preference. AK is in a 3 way tie (virtually) for last place in attendance and it will definitely fall behind studios in 2 years...if they cartoon Epcot up it will fall behind there as well.

That's the bottomline...and the gates still empty earlier than all the others.
I can't dispute that. People only see rides.
 


I don't think you'll see 3 hour waits in avatar for long...that's the IP effect. Mine train is silly...but it's smack dab behind the castle next to some princess buffets...so the setting determines a lot in disneydom.
I think flight of passage will have decent waits for the long run (45 minutes to an hour on the reg) but the boat ride will definitely become a walk on if what I'm hearing is true (I'll judge for myself in august)
 
I don't think you'll see 3 hour waits in avatar for long...that's the IP effect. Mine train is silly...but it's smack dab behind the castle next to some princess buffets...so the setting determines a lot in disneydom.

I hope so, I don't want to have to use my valuable fastpasses on it each time. They're like my children... that I give away to a pimply faced stranger, to get on an attraction.

The thing that keeps me up is that people will may say "Frick it, I'm here. There's not another attraction for what feels like 50 miles. I can't even see one through this vast jungle of blue and purple plants."
 
You're a Disneyland guy...so that's a cool new perspective...

But...AK from an operational standpoint is a half day park and hasn't changed since day one. Asia didn't move the needle...Everest didn't...ROL isn't gonna...and we'll see about avatar.

The jury is out on avatar...and I've been vocal about not reading too much about it...I'm trying to not preform an opinion about what was actually built...

But some of the leaky buzz I've caught honestly has been pretty mediocre. High theme, a good ride, short/not enough attractions, and an IP that isn't gonna build much loyalty.

But it is early to see the operational effect. Jury out.
I mention Disneyland because that is home base for me (first trip I remember was 1966). Eight trips to WDW over the last 11 years hopefully gets me past being considered a newbie. :) I pay attention to details and differences and try to understand those.

My first trip to AK was about 2 months after EE opened. So I have no knowledge of what it was pre-EE but can imagine it was clearly a half-day park. Since I have started going there and pre-Pandora, we always found enough to keep us busy and on our toes from rope drop until 5 or 6PM which was near park closing. Even before Pandora I did not see AK as a half-day park but more of a lower effort park because it closed earlier than the other parks.

I do not know what you mean about moving the needle. You must mean something other than growing park attendance because AK has been growing (until last year when all 6 American Disney parks went backwards). AK is now the 4th most attended theme park in North America.

See 4th chart titled "American Disney Park Attendance Since 1991"
http://blog.wdwinfo.com/2015/06/06/disney-parks-take-top-six-spots-in-america-last-year/

2015 and 2016 data can be found here: http://www.teaconnect.org/images/files/TEA_235_103719_170601.pdf

I am guessing here you must mean how many hours the average visitor stays in the park? That would be interesting data but I have not seen it. And I am not sure how Disney would know since they do not take data on people leaving AFAIK. Maybe you have more info on this?

:wizard:
 


If they added another land (Australia please) with an e ticket I think they'd be alright. Depends how long they wanna sit pat with things for

I always thought Australia or a generic "amazon" land could work. Of course, they could always still do Beastly Kingdom if they wanted. AK has tons of possibilities that are immediately apparent and would fight perfectly.

I LOVE Epcot, I touch it every day I'm at WDW, even if its just for a few cocktails and to watch Illuminations, but the front of that part is a hot mess right now. I don't see fixing it being nearly as easy thematically as adding enough to AK to be a full day park. I HOPE they approach Future World en toto vs. what I fear - plusing Mission Space and replacing UOE. I mean - that'd be great, but again, its kinda a hot mess. Its a hot mess I'm in love with, but still...
 
Here's one unknown I think on Avatar, since there are a ton of the movies still to come out, that IP could grow substantially. I still thought the movie was a pretty Fern Gully, but I think the IP value will only be understood in future years.
 
Not that I really care..... and readily admit that I am usually one of the contributors....... but this thread wins the most derailed award for the year.....
That's because there is no beer involved. At least we are still talking about theme parks.
I think every thread should touch on how the issue at hand relates to overall Disney strategy, leadership, history and international park comparisons. Don't you? :teacher:

:wizard:
 
I always thought Australia or a generic "amazon" land could work. Of course, they could always still do Beastly Kingdom if they wanted. AK has tons of possibilities that are immediately apparent and would fight perfectly.

I LOVE Epcot, I touch it every day I'm at WDW, even if its just for a few cocktails and to watch Illuminations, but the front of that part is a hot mess right now. I don't see fixing it being nearly as easy thematically as adding enough to AK to be a full day park. I HOPE they approach Future World en toto vs. what I fear - plusing Mission Space and replacing UOE. I mean - that'd be great, but again, its kinda a hot mess. Its a hot mess I'm in love with, but still...

I am still holding out hope for Beastly Kingdom. I refuse to let that go lol

But I agree that adding Australia to AK would be amazing. And if they could add Greece to Epcot (the food and architecture would be a great addition) then I would be so stinkin' happy!
 
I am still holding out hope for Beastly Kingdom. I refuse to let that go lol

But I agree that adding Australia to AK would be amazing. And if they could add Greece to Epcot (the food and architecture would be a great addition) then I would be so stinkin' happy!
I read a lot of insight into the AK design and concept in a book (I think it was called 40 years of magic; a tad outdated now but still a good read in background/history). It's a collection of short essays and such but I digress.

My point being that there's a section on beastly kingdom and it talks about how they cut it from the original budget due to overruns, and slashed imagineering, who happily went down the road and infused ideas into the islands of adventure design. Basically the lost continent was their take on beastly kingdom.

Anyways, an interesting tidbit if you care haha
 
I read a lot of insight into the AK design and concept in a book (I think it was called 40 years of magic; a tad outdated now but still a good read in background/history). It's a collection of short essays and such but I digress.

My point being that there's a section on beastly kingdom and it talks about how they cut it from the original budget due to overruns, and slashed imagineering, who happily went down the road and infused ideas into the islands of adventure design. Basically the lost continent was their take on beastly kingdom.

Anyways, an interesting tidbit if you care haha

That is interesting! I wonder if Disney attempted to make the Beastly Kingdom now if Universal could come at them with copyright infringement or something, even though it was originally Disney's idea.
 
That is interesting! I wonder if Disney attempted to make the Beastly Kingdom now if Universal could come at them with copyright infringement or something, even though it was originally Disney's idea.
Well uni changed lost continent to Harry Potter so they could definitely get away with it. However, current management seems to be obsessed with using existing properties instead of an original concept like that.

We can dream though!
 
I mention Disneyland because that is home base for me (first trip I remember was 1966). Eight trips to WDW over the last 11 years hopefully gets me past being considered a newbie. :) I pay attention to details and differences and try to understand those.

My first trip to AK was about 2 months after EE opened. So I have no knowledge of what it was pre-EE but can imagine it was clearly a half-day park. Since I have started going there and pre-Pandora, we always found enough to keep us busy and on our toes from rope drop until 5 or 6PM which was near park closing. Even before Pandora I did not see AK as a half-day park but more of a lower effort park because it closed earlier than the other parks.

I do not know what you mean about moving the needle. You must mean something other than growing park attendance because AK has been growing (until last year when all 6 American Disney parks went backwards). AK is now the 4th most attended theme park in North America.

See 4th chart titled "American Disney Park Attendance Since 1991"
http://blog.wdwinfo.com/2015/06/06/disney-parks-take-top-six-spots-in-america-last-year/

2015 and 2016 data can be found here: http://www.teaconnect.org/images/files/TEA_235_103719_170601.pdf

I am guessing here you must mean how many hours the average visitor stays in the park? That would be interesting data but I have not seen it. And I am not sure how Disney would know since they do not take data on people leaving AFAIK. Maybe you have more info on this?

:wizard:

No...for someone that was in the park before it opened...through the early years...till today, in just stating the obvious realities.

Stand by the exit from 12 ish to 2 pm...the place dumps...and the people filter off. That's still a gigantic operational issue.

Why? Because it costs so damn much. That's the problem...the operational costs for AK is likely the highest of any disney park...Epcot is another likely guess.

MK posts 20 mil in annual visitors...but the other three are almost even. Mgm is the cheapest and it can't pull what AK or Epcot does because of the overhead.

Wdw operations needs EPCOT and AK to be in the 15 range. And in 3 years...they'll be the bottom 2 and the others will be ahead.

That's upside down...it's a longterm headeache...and it will have to change. If they are going to expect loads of profit as espn collapses (they do)...can't have that stay as is on the statistics sheet. The street doesn't like that.

AK still needs a large (10 figures) commitment if they are gonna peel off/attract enough new business into the place to justify the realities of it.
 
And for you Nancy's out there...

...every theme park discussion is at least partly about what the management is or isn't doing...that isn't gonna change until a recession hits...

...then it will revert to free dining discussion 24/7
 

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