Parents, Please Control your Children

[Magpie]

It is not hitting. it is spanking. There is a very real difference.

Spanking is the next step (usually the last) in a progression of discipline. There come a time when timeouts dont work. Little sally knows that after her 5 minutes in the corner she can go right back to what she was doing. after 3 or 4 "time outs" with no change, there is a next step. Spank a child and they know what happens next. No child likes to be spanked and they will do what they have to do to avoid it.

Done properly, you may only have to spank your child 1 or 2 times in all their life.

But sally has to know what happens when time outs dont correct bad behavior.

I love my mother dearly, but when I was a kid, I had a healthy fear of her. I did not want to have to have her spank me, because it hurt. That fear of a painful spanking kept me in line.

And if deploying the nuclear option doesn't work, then what?

Spanking didn't scare me one bit as a kid. In fact, during one spanking in particular when I was nine, I remember thinking, "My mother's weak. She's pathetic. She can't actually hurt me. I can do whatever I want, and this is the worst she can do!" (And that one actually gave me welts on my butt, which I pointed out to her with glee - I was a tough kid.)

I didn't spank my kids, or threaten to spank them, because there were always better ways to shape their behaviour. And make them think about what they did and reconsider their actions in the future. We were big on learning to think before you act, and when you do mess up, then make restitution for your misdeeds.

My kids, as adults, still have a healthy fear of disappointing me - or, even worse! - their dad. For some reason, that's FAR more terrifying to them than a spanking ever was to me.

 

[Jennasis]

Of course its not. My point is that a child may presume that it is acceptable to join the performer, because they've learned from experience that joining a piano player is indeed acceptable if not applauded. If the performer does not appear to mind, which seems to be the case in the OP's story, the child (and parent as well) may not view it as a problem. Certainly not the problem that the OP and other thought it was. I certainly would not deem the child an obnoxious, undisciplined brat based on that experience alone, but again, that's just my take.

I think we'd be shocked at how much CM's tolerate poor behavior from kids (and adults). That piano player is never EVER going to tell the kid to stop. I bet he isn't allowed to. And even if he was allowed, he isn't going to stop the performance to do so, nor risk suffering any potential blow back.

The bottom line is that those kids, obnoxious or not should have been corrected by their parents.

 

[larryz]

I'm cool with either word.

The way I read it, it is possible to tolerate without accepting. I don't, however, see how it would be possible to do the reverse.

In WDW, I accept that kids are going to be kids. They may do some things that'll make me cringe, make me wish I'd never had them, make me wish I went to Mexico and sat on the beach all week instead. So I accept AND tolerate some behaviors from BOTH kids AND parents. Otherwise, it'd be easy for me to get grumpy, anxious, etc.

Where I was raised, kids were generally well-behaved, polite and respectful. As a previous poster pointed out, they would never even have conceived of interrupting a public piano performance by banging on the keys. If some neutron zinging through their brain were to momentarily disrupt their well-ordered thoughtways, and lead to a momentary lapse of good behavior in public, they knew there would be, to quote Uncle Owen, "...hell to pay." Maybe not right then, but soon...

So I accept that our opinions on this matter differ. And I shall, as DIS decorum demands, tolerate such as expressed. But I shall never embrace the idea that it's acceptable or tolerable to let children run wild in public -- to quote the thread title, "parents, please control your children."

 

[Minnesota!]

I'm cool with either word. In WDW, I accept that kids are going to be kids. They may do some things that'll make me cringe, make me wish I'd never had them, make me wish I went to Mexico and sat on the beach all week instead. So I accept AND tolerate some behaviors from BOTH kids AND parents. Otherwise, it'd be easy for me to get grumpy, anxious, etc.

But, see...kids are NOT going to just go up to someone giving a performance and interrupt. THAT is not "kids being kids". That is an ill mannered child behaving badly. He should have been dragged away...screaming or not. Disabilities does not matter...bad behavior is bad behavior and should have been dealt with at the appropriate level of the child's understanding. Being scolded, grounded, lose privileges, spanked, dragged from the park and forced to nap, whatever.

"Kids being kids" is such a cop out. "Kids being kids" relates to getting cotton candy stuck to their face, or spilling their milk, or changing their mind about riding a scary ride at the last minute. When you say "kids being kids" in relation to bad behavior....it shows that the parents don't know how/don't care to parent.

 

[mshanson3121]

The other day we were at MK, just enjoying the ambiance. Jim was at Coke Corner, looking spiffy as usual playing the white piano. He gave a lovely introduction to Maple Leaf Rag, standing up and giving some of it's history. Then he began playing. Along came 2 boys, about 6 and 7 years old. They went up to the piano, the older boy hanging over it looking and the younger one banging on the keys. Jim continued playing, giving it his best, while the young lad was pounding on the bass keys. Along came the parents and not once did they correct their child. They only suggested moving on to something different. Still the boy banged on the lower notes, and Jim valiantly played on. It was the worst rendition of Maple Leaf Rag you can imagine. The parents moved on, and little Johnny, noticing they were gone, finally left too. Jim finished with a flourish, and smiled. Of course he couldn't say anything about what had happened. I felt bad for him.

I never would allow a child of mine to behave in such a way. There was no correction, guidance or direction from the parents, let alone discipline. The children were allowed to do just whatever they felt like.

I will ask this first: do you know with 100% certainly that the piano player did not encourage the boy in any way, or make him feel that it was okay for him to continue banging on the piano? I have seen that happen before in other places. Either way, I still would have removed my children, but I know, that sometimes people indulge children in that sort of thing, just like grandparents often do. Ex. The other night my FIL was visiting and was on the phone. My son was making noise, so I told him to please come downstairs so that Grampy could talk on the phone. What did my son do? Go upstairs. Needless to say, I was not impressed at his disobedience, and I immediately called him downstairs right this second. What I did not know, is that his grandfather, had told him to go ahead and come up, so he could talk on the phone, too. So... just sometimes, what looks like disobedient or unruly behavior to the outside eye, isn't.

 

[starjazz]

I will absolutely react differently to a child who goes up and starts banging on the piano during a performance outside Casey's whose parents make the kid stop than I will to a kid who goes up and bangs on the piano and the parents sit there and laugh and allow it to continue. In the first situation, a child is behaving in a way he shouldn't and the parent responds by trying to have courtesy towards all of those around by correcting the child's behavior. In the second situation, the child is still behaving in a way he shouldn't but the parents do not reacts appropriately. They, too, are behaving in a way they should not. I assume children will misbehave. That's part of growing up and learning proper behavior. I don't think it is out of line to expect proper behavior from the adults.

I guess what I'm reacting to is the original story, which is different from your hypothetical. In the original story as was it was told by the OP, the parents came along and suggested they all do something else. When the boys didn't respond, the parents moved on, and then the boys followed. What happened afterward, whether they were privately disciplined, is not mentioned or it wasn't observed. If I'm replaying the scene in my head, Maple Leaf Rag is about a 2 min, 30 sec song. Not sure at what point the boys joined in, but the whole thing seemed to happen pretty quickly, since, according to the OP, the offending boys were apparently gone before the song was over. There is no part of the story that includes the parents laughing and enjoying the boys banging on the piano.

Based on how that story is told, I'm just not as critical of the parents. Perhaps they did discipline privately later. Perhaps their method of walking away, thereby forcing the boy to follow, was works best. Maybe they didn't want a big screaming, kicking scene as one previous poster suggested might happen if they boys were picked up and hauled away. Maybe the boys were too big to be picked up and hauled away physically, and the solution these parents chose was the one they could handle.

My point is that judging these kids as brats, and their parents as inept based on this one story seems really judgmental to me, and unfair, in my opinion.

 

[Magpie]

OP here.

Yes, I'm sure Jim was annoyed, but perhaps it has happened before. He is a CM and not in a position to correct other peoples children. Should he have stopped playing, perhaps ask the audience where the children's parents were? Perhaps you think he should have asked the child not to do what he was doing. He did what a seasoned performer would have done. The show must go on. The parents should have stepped up to the plate and guided the children away from the piano, or required them to listen to the performance or steered the children to something that would have captured their interests. They should
have explained that it was not acceptable to disrupt a performance and requested them to stop or there would be consequences.

Perhaps these children did have special needs. I doubt it but anything is possible. By the way, I have a child with special needs. I know that all of us have the ability to learn, grow, develop, and be the best person they can. But they can't do that without guidance, direction and discipline. Notice I never mentioned corporal discipline. Each child, no matter what limitations they might have, are able to blossom into a lovely person. They can't do it on their own. Also, notice I did not blame the children. They were only doing what was allowed.

Yep, in our family we called it "civilizing the barbarians."

 

[summerw]

I'm so surprised that people are suggesting spanking as the answer. I tell my son that he needs to resolve problems with words, not his fists, so I would never think that's the answer to discipline him, especially an 8 year old. Discipline without hitting is a lot harder. You do have to be more creative and make the punishment fit the crime and be far more consistent, but I'm willing to do that to not resort to what I think is physical violence.

And I think calling a kid a "brat" is name calling. I agree "obnoxious" and "undisciplined" is just describing their behavior, but I don't think anyone needs to be calling kids "brats," also because I think the problem is their parents, not the kids.

Personally, from the OP's account, if the pianist smiled, maybe he wasn't actually bothered. Disney does blur the lines of "the usual." There are so many little playgrounds, interactive queues and hidden surprises at Disney (Minnie's house in DL has an oven that's meant to be played with--certainly not something kids are allowed to touch other places) that it must be confusing for kids. For all we know, maybe the pianist thought it was an amusing addition to something that's very routine for him. I wasn't there. It's not something I would ever allow my child to continue, and I think the parents should have stopped the children, but I certainly don't think spanking should be brought up here, or we should assume the kids are "brats" because the parents and/or kids had poor judgement in this moment. No one was hurt and spanking a kid over this just seems beyond nuts to me.

If the spanking and brats comments were in response to the things like sand throwing which can actually result in physical harm to someone, I guess I understand more, but I just don't agree in general. It's not how I would choose to discipline or how I would refer to someone else's kids.

 

[mshanson3121]

In what world would a professional entertainer not mind a kid banging away on his piano during a public performance?

I'm going to guess probably one who decided to work at Walt Disney World, where he was going to be surrounded by tens of thousands of children each and every day, and run into this scenario many times. Probably one who enjoys children, and doesn't mind sharing the limelight once in a while. I'm not saying I condone the behavior, but good grief, some of these reactions are really over the top.

 

[OZMom]

I will ask this first: do you know with 100% certainly that the piano player did not encourage the boy in any way, or make him feel that it was okay for him to continue banging on the piano? I have seen that happen before in other places. Either way, I still would have removed my children, but I know, that sometimes people indulge children in that sort of thing, just like grandparents often do. Ex. The other night my FIL was visiting and was on the phone. My son was making noise, so I told him to please come downstairs so that Grampy could talk on the phone. What did my son do? Go upstairs. Needless to say, I was not impressed at his disobedience, and I immediately called him downstairs right this second. What I did not know, is that his grandfather, had told him to go ahead and come up, so he could talk on the phone, too. So... just sometimes, what looks like disobedient or unruly behavior to the outside eye, isn't.

This thought crossed my mind as well when reading it. I have been in situations similar where I would correct my children's behavior and find that the person I thought they were annoying was actually encouraging them. From the description the OP gave, it would appear that is not the case in this instance, but we were not there and just have to take their word for it. What someone complains as unruly or rude behavior, may have turned up as someone else's thread about "pixie dust" they witnessed by the piano player.

 

[starjazz]

Yeah, actually, it does. I can't speak for the rest of your parenting, but in this situation, yeah. And that's exactly why everyone around you would have an issue. It's not your sister's house. This is someone doing a professional performance. What on God's green earth would you be thinking letting your child "join" them?! After the thread that involved the child hitting a performer at Jedi Training, I already know you would think it was cute, so honestly, I can't say it surprises me.

And I thank you again for your take on my parenting skills. It really means so much to me when random people offer their advice and opinions on how I parent my kids. I totally take it to heart. Lol.

This performance that is done at Coke Corner is hardly Carnegie Hall. That kids want to participate in it isn't a big shock. Kinda like I'm not shocked if a young child who's given a light saber and told to take down Darth might whack him. For the record, I wouldn't let it go on either. But I also wouldn't physically remove my kid kicking and screaming, because I don't believe that it is my job to CONTROL anyone but myself. And I teach my kids the same. If controlling people is your bag, have at it.

 

[summerw]

This thought crossed my mind as well when reading it. I have been in situations similar where I would correct my children's behavior and find that the person I thought they were annoying was actually encouraging them. From the description the OP gave, it would appear that is not the case in this instance, but we were not there and just have to take their word for it. What someone complains as unruly or rude behavior, may have turned up as someone else's thread about "pixie dust" they witnessed by the piano player.

I think this is an excellent point. My son is curious and loves boxes and locks etc. He would love to rummage through the drawers and closets of every house we visit. I do not think this is acceptable behavior by any means. When he was younger though, we'd go to people's houses and I'd stop him when I saw him going for a cabinet etc. I can't tell you how many people would tell him it's fine. I didn't want to tell my uncle, who I respect, um, no, it's not, but DS and I did have a discussion later about the difference between uncle's house and someone else's. Kids get mixed messages and an environment like Disney where they're encouraged to participate with their hands is even more confusing. I certainly don't think it should earn them a spanking.

 

[Annadesu]

Yikes, you would think that maybe they could put ropes around the piano/player during the performance? Nothing fancy, just something that is obviously a barrier?

There's no one single way to discipline all children. Like adults, they have very varied personalities. For some, time out is fine. Some need to have their toys and privileges taken away. Personally, my mother had three steps. 1) The glare 2) The verbal warning 3) The smack in the head. #3 rarely happened, but when it did, we asked for it. lol

 

[quagmire0]

I'll play Devil's advocate here. Many people critique the 'new way' of parenting where discipline is lacking, but it's a bit of a chicken or the egg scenario these days. Many parents feel like they are under a microscope and, should they show any verbal or physical aggression towards their kids, they would be criticized or even punished for doing so. That wasn't the case, back in the day, when you could smack your kid or yank them by the ear without so much as an awkward glance.

Now, having said that, my reaction as a parent in this situation would have been to grab my kid, scold them, and move them out of there as quickly (and quietly, as to not disturb the performance any longer) as possible.

 

[lustergirl]

If kids can't be kids in Disney World, I'm not sure where they can be. I'm not suggesting that just anything goes, obviously, but I try really hard not to judge other families. I know with 100% certainty that there are times that my family must look like a complete disaster, and I hope people can be understanding of it. Just my take.

Kind of hard not to judge when someone's kids are acting up in public. I go ahead and judge and say the parents can't control their children.

 

[DisDadDVC]

I think this is an excellent point. My son is curious and loves boxes and locks etc. He would love to rummage through the drawers and closets of every house we visit. I do not think this is acceptable behavior by any means. When he was younger though, we'd go to people's houses and I'd stop him when I saw him going for a cabinet etc. I can't tell you how many people would tell him it's fine. I didn't want to tell my uncle, who I respect, um, no, it's not, but DS and I did have a discussion later about the difference between uncle's house and someone else's. Kids get mixed messages and an environment like Disney where they're encouraged to participate with their hands is even more confusing. I certainly don't think it should earn them a spanking.

This is purely speculation on my part, but I have the feeling that many people say that "it's fine" are just saying it to avoid the issue. My guess is it was not fine... I have done this myself to avoid confrontation/embarrassment.

 

[Jennasis]

And I thank you again for your take on my parenting skills. It really means so much to me when random people offer their advice and opinions on how I parent my kids. I totally take it to heart. Lol.

This performance that is done at Coke Corner is hardly Carnegie Hall. That kids want to participate in it isn't a big shock. Kinda like I'm not shocked if a young child who's given a light saber and told to take down Darth might whack him. For the record, I wouldn't let it go on either. But I also wouldn't physically remove my kid kicking and screaming, because I don't believe that it is my job to CONTROL anyone but myself. And I teach my kids the same. If controlling people is your bag, have at it.

Uh oh...

 

[wilkeliza]

Wait isn't the piano behind a railing? Wouldn't that lend people to believe that it was not a duo since you would have to reach over a railing to even be touching the piano in the first place?

 

[lustergirl]

I should have added something about ECVs to get to 10/10

a brat is a brat. I have even called my own sons brats before.

 

[OZMom]

This is purely speculation on my part, but I have the feeling that many people say that "it's fine" are just saying it to avoid the issue. My guess is it was not fine... I have done this myself to avoid confrontation/embarrassment.

I don't understand why someone would say "it's fine" if the parent has already made it a point to correct the behavior, if they didn't mean it. That seems like it's a bit of a reach to say they are avoiding confrontation. If my child goes to take a cookie and I stop them and the person hands them the cookie anyways, I would say that is encouragement. If anything it may cause a confrontation since I am trying to guide my child's behavior and you're apparently undermining it?