Overpaid teachers?

[eliza61]

Still, a lot in the 70's and 80's which IMO is still high. I know plenty of people on Long Island that work more hours and doing manual work and make less then 50k.

So by your arbitary rule some one cleaning the streets because they work more hours should make more than some one you entrust you children too.

Once again, walmart mentality. We want the best, the brightest, the most dedicated people surrounding our kids and yep, we want them to make 25K a year.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

I live in the suburbs North & West of Philadelphia, NOT New York by any stretch of the imagination.

A neighboring district went on strike 2 or 3 years ago by rejecting a contract that would have put the average starting salary of new teachers at $52,260. This same contract would have set the top step (15+ years of teaching) at an average salary of $86,028 by the final year of the contract.

Keep in mind this is a district whose tax base is paid primarily by retirees. Still scratching my head as to why this contract was voted down, especially in the face of the economy? Then I remember, as I posted in another thread, this district was being called a "benchmark" district for the NEA and PSEA. In other words, they had to try and win as big of a contract as necessary so that other Districts in the State would be able to use them as an example. I felt bad for the teachers, because they were facing the vitriol of the public on the front lines, while they were really nothing but pawns in a larger game.

I really think this is what it is becoming in Wisconsin. The teachers are now being used as pawns.

 

[eliza61]

Absolutely. And if the individual states do not solve the problem with the unfunded pension plans, a "bailout" will no doubt be in the works. Should Texas, which manages to balance their budget have to pay for Wisconsin who is currently struggling to balance their budget and every other state who can't balance it due to unfunded plans. There are one trillion dollars in unfunded pension plans; much of them from public workers.

and why are they unfunded? up until 10 years ago most pension plans were fully funded. It was not until states decided to start borrowing against what the called "money just lying around" to meet other obligations did these plans become under funded.

I'm not in Wisconsins so I can't speak to what their state budget issues are but NJ pensions is about 25% of the budget so there is a lot of other waste going around.

 

[kamik86]

I posted this on the other thread that had this email in it but will say it here too:

I don't understand why saying "X job with children may even be under the poverty level." is any reason to pay anyone more. It was their choice to have several children and I don't think someone should be paid more just because they need more, no matter what the job is.

However I do believe teachers should be paid more. Why? Becasue the quality is slipping and/or we don't have enough people. At least at my high school it wasn't uncommon to have a teacher that knew less about what you were learning then you did, espeically say the teacher whose job it was to teach the use of Word and Power point in a technical school... Or the English teacher teaching MacBeth while referencing her cliff note version (seriously at least don't let the kids see it!!)

We also had english teachers with history minors teaching history since we didn't have enough history teachers. However the English teachers thought the class was pointless and our least important class so wouldn't teach anything and would in some cases even say that if we just wanted to nap thats fine we should be well rested for our real classes.

Our shop teachers in my technical high school were also pretty bad, very behind on the subject matter. Why? Because an Electrician/Architect/Computer Programmer makes ALOT more then the electricity/CAD/IT shop teacher. So all the good ones were in industry instead of teaching.

this is why teachers need to be paid more, so we have good teachers. Besides that I also have a professional job. One where I also have breaks during the day sometimes if work is a bit slow, but I am mandated to get a masters in a certain amount of time, made to work some extra projects as part of a fast track program to advance that I"m not paid for, asked to work numerous volunteer projects many of which occur during the work day on my own time throughout the year etc. However there is a huge difference between my job and teachers they pay me 60K right out of school with my B.S. to do so. Oh and they are also paying for that masters they are making me get. So although I have as little (actually less given there much more extensive vacations) time at least until I finish my masters as they do, at least I'm compensated enough to make it worth it.

 

[Rumpus]

I live in the suburbs North & West of Philadelphia, NOT New York by any stretch of the imagination.

A neighboring district went on strike 2 or 3 years ago by rejecting a contract that would have put the average starting salary of new teachers at $52,260. This same contract would have set the top step (15+ years of teaching) at an average salary of $86,028 by the final year of the contract.

Keep in mind this is a district whose tax base is paid primarily by retirees. Still scratching my head as to why this contract was voted down, especially in the face of the economy? Then I remember, as I posted in another thread, this district was being called a "benchmark" district for the NEA and PSEA. In other words, they had to try and win as big of a contract as necessary so that other Districts in the State would be able to use them as an example. I felt bad for the teachers, because they were facing the vitriol of the public on the front lines, while they were really nothing but pawns in a larger game.

I really think this is what it is becoming in Wisconsin. The teachers are now being used as pawns.

Or useful idiots.

 

[sistersledge24]

So by your arbitary rule some one cleaning the streets because they work more hours should make more than some one you entrust you children too.

Once again, walmart mentality. We want the best, the brightest, the most dedicated people surrounding our kids and yep, we want them to make 25K a year.

Sadly though most of those teaching are not the best or brightest. I do not want them to make 25K but I see nothing wrong with them making 50k and letting others who work more hours make the same.

Of course not in every job. I really didn't think that needed to be said. I lived in queens. NYC cops (my dad is retired cop, my sister is retired cop) firemen, and sanititation routinely on AVERAGE (not all but average) make a higher salary that has been adjusted for col. My sister routinely made over 125K as a pollice officer.

We could go on and on forever about who deserves what. Why do LI cops get to retire after only 20 years on the job with sweet pensions and health insurance? Why do nursing care workers only make pennies? Why do we pay our young men and women in the military crap?

But, most people on the Island do not have the jobs that adjust for COL. Most people are working jobs that do not care what the COL and it's a struggle to live here most times. People here do not like how cops can retire after only 20 years, but that's a whole different discussion.

 

[sparks19]

I think teachers should be paid based on their performance (I'm not talking about test scores as that has shown to be pointless). Bad teachers should get paid significantly less (or not be employed) than great teachers.

The way the system is set up now is everyone pretty much makes the same amount whether you go the extra mile or not. That is a STUPID way to have it set up. that pretty much squashes the momentum. Why go the extra mile if you are just going to get the shaft... get the same amount as the guy teaching in the next class who couldn't care less and is just there for a pay check.

Good teachers should be rewarded but the system is set up to make all teachers equal and that's just not true. Why are teachers expected to do everything just out of the goodness of their hearts when no other profession is expected to do that? There should be incentives for great teachers. Imagine how teachers would step up if they might be rewarded for their performance. Do the minimum amount of work and get paid the same as a teacher who does the maximum amount of work.

I had some amazing teachers when I was in school and I had some pretty awful ones. the thought that they were seen as "equal" was BS. But that's what they push in school these days... everyone is equal... everyone's a winner... no one can ever fail. which is a load of BS and sets those kids up for failure when they get into the real world and realize that's not how it works.

So I don't blame the teachers at all. I blame the system.

 

[sistersledge24]

I posted this on the other thread that had this email in it but will say it here too:

I don't understand why saying "X job with children may even be under the poverty level." is any reason to pay anyone more. It was their choice to have several children and I don't think someone should be paid more just because they need more, no matter what the job is.

However I do believe teachers should be paid more. Why? Becasue the quality is slipping and/or we don't have enough people. At least at my high school it wasn't uncommon to have a teacher that knew less about what you were learning then you did, espeically say the teacher whose job it was to teach the use of Word and Power point in a technical school... Or the English teacher teaching MacBeth while referencing her cliff note version (seriously at least don't let the kids see it!!)

We also had english teachers with history minors teaching history since we didn't have enough history teachers. However the English teachers thought the class was pointless and our least important class so wouldn't teach anything and would in some cases even say that if we just wanted to nap thats fine we should be well rested for our real classes.

Our shop teachers in my technical high school were also pretty bad, very behind on the subject matter. Why? Because an Electrician/Architect/Computer Programmer makes ALOT more then the electricity/CAD/IT shop teacher. So all the good ones were in industry instead of teaching.

this is why teachers need to be paid more, so we have good teachers. Besides that I also have a professional job. One where I also have breaks during the day sometimes if work is a bit slow, but I am mandated to get a masters in a certain amount of time, made to work some extra projects as part of a fast track program to advance that I"m not paid for, asked to work numerous volunteer projects many of which occur during the work day on my own time throughout the year etc. However there is a huge difference between my job and teachers they pay me 60K right out of school with my B.S. to do so. Oh and they are also paying for that masters they are making me get. So although I have as little (actually less given there much more extensive vacations) time at least until I finish my masters as they do, at least I'm compensated enough to make it worth it.

I do not think getting paid more is going to improve quality. I feel like just giving them more will make the quality get worse because they just got rewarded for low quality. I have found that private schools that pay there teachers around 30k have the best teachers. Why? Because these teachers are not in the job for the money, they are in it because they do care and want to help the kids. Lowering salaries I think would help this to happen in all schools, people who really want to teach will do it and not just do it for the money.

 

[Rumpus]

Sadly though most of those teaching are not the best or brightest. I do not want them to make 25K but I see nothing wrong with them making 50k and letting others who work more hours make the same.



But, most people on the Island do not have the jobs that adjust for COL. Most people are working jobs that do not care what the COL and it's a struggle to live here most times. People here do not like how cops can retire after only 20 years, but that's a whole different discussion.

Or receive full disability benefits for hypertension and heart disease due to "stress". Who doesn't have stress today? One could surmise some that I see doing construction duty; (for some reason it takes two policemen for the smallest job, rather than security guards who would work for less) could attribute their heart disease and hypertension to their weight.

 

[sistersledge24]

I think teachers should be paid based on their performance (I'm not talking about test scores as that has shown to be pointless). Bad teachers should get paid significantly less (or not be employed) than great teachers.

The way the system is set up now is everyone pretty much makes the same amount whether you go the extra mile or not. That is a STUPID way to have it set up. that pretty much squashes the momentum. Why go the extra mile if you are just going to get the shaft... get the same amount as the guy teaching in the next class who couldn't care less and is just there for a pay check.

Good teachers should be rewarded but the system is set up to make all teachers equal and that's just not true. Why are teachers expected to do everything just out of the goodness of their hearts when no other profession is expected to do that? There should be incentives for great teachers. Imagine how teachers would step up if they might be rewarded for their performance. Do the minimum amount of work and get paid the same as a teacher who does the maximum amount of work.

I had some amazing teachers when I was in school and I had some pretty awful ones. the thought that they were seen as "equal" was BS. But that's what they push in school these days... everyone is equal... everyone's a winner... no one can ever fail. which is a load of BS and sets those kids up for failure when they get into the real world and realize that's not how it works.

So I don't blame the teachers at all. I blame the system.

Very, very true. This actually applies at a lot of jobs too, people are getting paid the same no matter what amount of work they are doing. Actually, this really happens in union jobs. My father has been working for a union company for a long time where he goes off to work at 4 am and gets home at 3 and does manual labor all day. He actually works but knows people with his job who do not do a thing all day but are protected because of the union.

 

[kamik86]

I do not think getting paid more is going to improve quality. I feel like just giving them more will make the quality get worse because they just got rewarded for low quality. I have found that private schools that pay there teachers around 30k have the best teachers. Why? Because these teachers are not in the job for the money, they are in it because they do care and want to help the kids. Lowering salaries I think would help this to happen in all schools, people who really want to teach will do it and not just do it for the money.

My point was more that, especially for some subjects if you really know what your doing in the subject you can make A LOT more doing something other then teaching it. In that case the people most likely to end up teacher are the ones that can't get hired for anything else in their field, thus some of the least knowledgeable people. Now there will be a few exceptions for those that really really want to teach but especially in your tech fields I'm not sure that will give enough people without evening out the pay scale some more.

 

[sparks19]

Very, very true. This actually applies at a lot of jobs too, people are getting paid the same no matter what amount of work they are doing. Actually, this really happens in union jobs. My father has been working for a union company for a long time where he goes off to work at 4 am and gets home at 3 and does manual labor all day. He actually works but knows people with his job who do not do a thing all day but are protected because of the union.

That's true. I'm not a fan of unions. I think a lot of times they hurt more than help. they protect everyone equally so those that do a sub par job still get paid the same as the person working their butt off. I just don't know that I'd want to work my very hardest to get the same as the guy who just sits tehre with his thumb where the sun don't shine lol.

Quite a few people in my family worked at the Ford plant and the things I heard about what people would do there. DRUGS even... while at WORK but the union protects them all.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

The truth of the matter is that there is no proof that throwing more money into salaries equates to better education. The schools that pay their teachers 100K face similar failure & graduation rates as schools who are paying their teachers 50K.

"Good" education is not something that is bought by doling out huge amounts of taxpayer money to those coming into the field of education. In actuality, in Pennsylvania the ever-increasing amounts of the contracts that the PSEA goes to war in order to win are creating a situation where there are too many graduates looking to get into these districts. Districts are routinely seeing 100's of applicants for very few positions. In addition, throwing "easy" money to someone who is able to be protected by Union tactics, will not only bring good teachers, but it will also bring in more teachers looking for the free ride.

While we all may be on different sides of this issue, I think we can probably agree on one thing... the current Public School System (from budgeting, to salaries, to extracurricular activities) is broken.

 

[sparks19]

While we all may be on different sides of this issue, I think we can probably agree on one thing... the current Public School System (from budgeting, to salaries, to extracurricular activities) is broken.

Amen to that.

it is very broken.

also just wanted to touch on the comment about laborers not making as much as teachers or others but doing more work. I can't remember who bought this up now... sorry lol

But anyway the reason is mostly because one takes a college/university education that COSTS a lot of money and the other doesn't. That's not to say that just going to school makes you worth more but you go to school to specialize in a field. You pay a lot of money to get that degree to be considered a professional.

The average day laborer didn't have to go to school to do their job. but then you look at plumbers and electricians... They make a lot more because they needed to get an education to do what they do.

So a lot of times having that degree makes you worth more money than if you don't have a degree or work in a field that doesn't require a degree.

but then again if you want to get paid big bucks for being a laborer you could get a job with Penndot and then you can be one of 10 guys just standing around watching one guy work and make $40 an hour lol

 

[sistersledge24]

That's true. I'm not a fan of unions. I think a lot of times they hurt more than help. they protect everyone equally so those that do a sub par job still get paid the same as the person working their butt off. I just don't know that I'd want to work my very hardest to get the same as the guy who just sits tehre with his thumb where the sun don't shine lol.

Quite a few people in my family worked at the Ford plant and the things I heard about what people would do there. DRUGS even... while at WORK but the union protects them all.

I understand that when unions were forst formed they were wonderful. But, that was a different time and as the world as moved forward I think it is time to eliminate them. The unions portect too many people if they choose not to do their jobs.

 

[kamik86]

I understand that when unions were forst formed they were wonderful. But, that was a different time and as the world as moved forward I think it is time to eliminate them. The unions portect too many people if they choose not to do their jobs.

This I do agree with. The plan to pay teachers more so you get enough good teachers only works if you also have the ability and will to fire the teachers that aren't good. I know test scores aren't a great measure of how good a teacher is but I have yet to go to a school where 90% of the students, teachers, parents, etc didn't KNOW who the good teachers were, who were giving easy grades, who just made your life miserable for the sake of it, who would be hard but fair etc. I'm assuming if we all know the administration should be able to figure it out.

 

[maxiesmom]

Here in Michigan we are having huge budget issues. Huge. And part of our new governor's suggested budget cuts the per student supliment by an enoromous amount. It is very scary. What also hurts is the fact that $250 of that per student rate right now goes towards teacher salary and retirement. That is a huge amount!

I know teachers do a very important job, but in right now paying so much towards retirement, health care, and salary is unacceptable. Every time I see a teacher on the news bemoaning the state of our schools I cringe.

I have a niece that plays basketball. One of the schools we visited had water all over the floor in the locker room because of roof leaks. They have a vote today to raise taxes for things like a new roof. I'm hoping it goes thru, but I really think teachers need to step back and look at how all of the money that goes to paying their health care and retirement could be spent for the children.

 

[eliza61]

I understand that when unions were forst formed they were wonderful. But, that was a different time and as the world as moved forward I think it is time to eliminate them. The unions portect too many people if they choose not to do their jobs.

Agree with you on this one. It is ridiculously hard to get rid of an ineffective worker.

Does anyone know why in Wisconsin the police and firemen are exempt from these budget cuts?

 

[sparks19]

I understand that when unions were forst formed they were wonderful. But, that was a different time and as the world as moved forward I think it is time to eliminate them. The unions portect too many people if they choose not to do their jobs.

I agree. There was a time when they did work. But now they don't. Imagine the quality of education if we had the ability to get rid of ineffective teachers and reward the good teachers.

 

[LisaR]

I posted this on the other thread that had this email in it but will say it here too:

I don't understand why saying "X job with children may even be under the poverty level." is any reason to pay anyone more. It was their choice to have several children and I don't think someone should be paid more just because they need more, no matter what the job is.

However I do believe teachers should be paid more. Why? Becasue the quality is slipping and/or we don't have enough people. At least at my high school it wasn't uncommon to have a teacher that knew less about what you were learning then you did, espeically say the teacher whose job it was to teach the use of Word and Power point in a technical school... Or the English teacher teaching MacBeth while referencing her cliff note version (seriously at least don't let the kids see it!!)

We also had english teachers with history minors teaching history since we didn't have enough history teachers. However the English teachers thought the class was pointless and our least important class so wouldn't teach anything and would in some cases even say that if we just wanted to nap thats fine we should be well rested for our real classes.

Our shop teachers in my technical high school were also pretty bad, very behind on the subject matter. Why? Because an Electrician/Architect/Computer Programmer makes ALOT more then the electricity/CAD/IT shop teacher. So all the good ones were in industry instead of teaching.

this is why teachers need to be paid more, so we have good teachers. Besides that I also have a professional job. One where I also have breaks during the day sometimes if work is a bit slow, but I am mandated to get a masters in a certain amount of time, made to work some extra projects as part of a fast track program to advance that I"m not paid for, asked to work numerous volunteer projects many of which occur during the work day on my own time throughout the year etc. However there is a huge difference between my job and teachers they pay me 60K right out of school with my B.S. to do so. Oh and they are also paying for that masters they are making me get. So although I have as little (actually less given there much more extensive vacations) time at least until I finish my masters as they do, at least I'm compensated enough to make it worth it.

Explain to me how more money will fix it? What if we all woke up tomorrow and found out a new law had been passed overnight that said all teachers will make a minimum of $100,000 a year. Now what?

How do we get rid of the dead wood that already have tenure? How do we determine if each individual teacher gets a merit raise the following year? What do we base it on? Performance in the classroom? Everyone knows that all classrooms are not created equal.

I am in favor of teachers making more money if they are great at their job but there has to be some way to determine what type of job they are doing.

My husband just had his performance review at work. It is a tedious process. He has to write up and fill out extensive paper work that shows what he has done over the year. That paperwork is reviewed by his immediate boss. If they are in agreement, his bosses boss receives the paperwork. That boss writes up his own review of my husband. All three then sit down and go over everything and DH is given a score. Each department is given X amount of dollars a year in merit raises. It is now up to the big boss to look over all the scores and divide that money up.

How do we do that in the field of education? I am not in favor of a union deciding that ALL teachers get a raise because it is in their contract. There has to be a way to weed out the bad ones. The process that the teachers have in place now does more to protect teachers than it does to educate the students.