Opinions on spanking children?

[jlewisinsyr]

First of all I disagree that abuse is different from spanking. There are so many other un-violent ways to discourage negative behavior. So how much can a parent hit their child with a paddle before you feel its no longer an "appropriate level of spanking"?

Feel free to disagree and you have the right to raise your children as you see fit.

As for how much is to much, if you're leaving severe bruises, breaking skin, hitting regardless of behavior, yeah, that would be abuse. Very different.

 

[bicker]

Sorry, I should have expanded, the study compared those who were and were not spanked and found those who were spanked were more successful (the metric was net worth and some other metrics - but I don't recall all the details) then those who were not (statistically speaking).

Sorry, but I'll take your first comment as the accurate characterization until you post a citation. Remember, the study you're quoting, itself, may have had its own bias in this regard. People trying to prove a point present the data to prove their point, even if the data disproves their point. So dig deeper: Present the real data, including the method used.

Using this logic, the statistical relationship would be that if 70% were and 30% were not spanked, success should/would be within a statistical variance of these as well (assuming the size of the study was large enough). I'll have to go back and find the study and read it again to see how they developed the base and how the full study was performed.

Precisely, so that's why your comment that "a majority" (which could be as little as 51%) of successful people were spanked seems to indicate that spanking stunts success. I'd expect that if the number was 75% or higher, they'd use a term grander than just "majority".

However, without a citation, we can't know, and so your statistic is merely meaningless, rather than contradictory to what you were asserting.

And beyond all that, don't miss Freyja's point.

 

[Hannathy]

Wow, just wow!
This is why so many children are abused physically, emotionally and sexually. Because other people feel that the well being of other children is none of their business!

No I would say because too many people butt in when no real abuse is taking place and the limited resources we have are spent/used to investigate these allegations instead of stopping and saving children who really are being abused.

A swat on the but is not abuse. Save the abuse cries for when real abuse is taking place.

IMO it would be a lot more pleasant to be out in public if a few lovely snowflakes had to worry about getting a swat on the behind instead of "Mommy would like it if you didn't do that sweety" with absolutely no follow up when sweety doesn't do what Mommy wouldn't like.

 

[FireDancer]

I could not disagree with you more. I have no doubt that you have turned out to be a good person (I can read that from these boards). But in MY OPINION you were abused!

Alrighty then. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

The "good" person would probably depend on who you ask here though.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

I could not disagree with you more. I have no doubt that you have turned out to be a good person (I can read that from these boards). But in MY OPINION you were abused!

Great, in my opinion, FireDancer was not, he was disciplined with an appropriate level of negative reinforcement, just as my brothers and I were. It is prefectly fine!

 

[Freyja]

You can believe that all you want and raise your kids as you see fit. If another parent doesn't see spanking as abuse that is none of your business.

Not everyone has to do it your way.

When does the well being of children other than your own become your business? Never? Because in the eyes of the law, everyone has a responsibility for children, even if they´re not their own. You have a responsibility to report any subjected abuse for instance. Where I live you would get a visit from child protective services if someone reported you for paddling your child.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Sorry, but I'll take your first comment as the accurate characterization until you post a citation. Remember, the study you're quoting, itself, may have had its own bias in this regard. People trying to prove a point present the data to prove their point, even if the data disproves their point. So dig deeper: Present the real data, including the method used.

Precisely, so that's why your comment that "a majority" (which could be as little as 51%) of successful people were spanked seems to indicate that spanking stunts success. I'd expect that if the number was 75% or higher, they'd use a term grander than just "majority".

However, without a citation, we can't know, and so your statistic is merely meaningless, rather than contradictory to what you were asserting.

Agreed, I will go back and find it to prove my point.

And beyond all that, don't miss Freyja's point.

And I don't believe Freyja's opinion is correct in how to handle negative behavior, regardless.

 

[Freyja]

Agreed, I will go back and find it to prove my point.



And I don't believe Freyja's opinion is correct in how to handle negative behavior, regardless.

So spanking/paddling is the only right way? Because I haven´t said a word about how to handle negative behavior. I´ve only given my opinion on spanking.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Where I live you would get a visit from child protective services if someone reported you for paddling your child.

Which is sad and pathetic! Spanking is not abuse.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

So spanking/paddling is the only right way? Because I haven´t said a word about how to handle negative behavior. I´ve only given my opinion on spanking.

Yes, and I believe spanking/paddling is perfectly fine in handling negative behavior. Spanking just to spank is abuse, spanking to handle negative behavior is not. This is the difference a few of us have been trying to distinquish.

 

[FireDancer]

When does the well being of children other than your own become your business? Never? Because in the eyes of the law, everyone has a responsibility for children, if if they´re not their own. You have a responsibility to report any subjected abuse for instance. Where I live you would get a visit from child protective services if someone reported you for paddling your child.

If I witnessed what I perceived to be abuse I would say something to someone. I will always give the benefit of the doubt to the parent if it looks like they are disciplining (again, what I perceive as disciplining) their kid as opposed to abusing them. All these nanny state rules, in my opinion, are making parents jobs harder and I'm not even a parent yet.

I am not a Nosy Nelly.

Now, at the same time I would also never tell anyone that wasn't spanking their kid that they should. That is just as much none of my business.

 

[bicker]

Abuse is very different from discouraging negative behavior through an appropriate level of spanking.

Well that is part of what you and Freyja disagree about. You're drawing a distinction, claiming that there is a difference beyond just a matter of degree. That's just your claim. It's not a fact.

You can believe that all you want and raise your kids as you see fit. If another parent doesn't see spanking as abuse that is none of your business. Not everyone has to do it your way.

While I agree that not everyone has to do it Freyja's way, that doesn't mean that it is not of anyone's business. The caring for, protection, and upbringing of children is society's business. Otherwise, society couldn't step in cases where even you would be willing to admit "abuse" is taking place. So this conflict reduces down to an argument about where the lines gets draw, not whether or not it is society's business.

 

[Freyja]

Which is sad and pathetic! Spanking is not abuse.

Why did you edit your post and leave out this part which you wrote originally "Avoiding politics, let me guess, you live in a coastal state."?

I don´t live in the US and don´t feel it should matter. And no, there is nothing sad and/or pathetic about protecting children.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Why did you edit your post and leave out this part which you wrote originally "Avoiding politics, let me guess, you live in a coastal state."?

I don´t live in the US and don´t feel it should matter. And no, there is nothing sad and/or pathetic about protecting children.

That's why I edited, I realized you didn't live in the US. Coastal states tend to be a little bit more, um, liberal (note, I live in for all intensive purposes a coastal state).

It is sad that all spanking is broad-brushed as abuse!

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Well that is part of what you and Freyja disagree about. You're drawing a distinction, claiming that there is a difference beyond just a matter of degree. That's just your claim. It's not a fact.

Exactly, Freyja is broad brushing that all spanking is abuse, and I disagree. Heart of the problem, yes, but heart of the discussion!

 

[bicker]

No I would say because too many people butt in when no real abuse is taking place and the limited resources we have are spent/used to investigate these allegations instead of stopping and saving children who really are being abused.

I agree that limited resources should govern priorities, but by the same token when there are "limited" resources for something important then society should allocate more resources rather than resign itself to institutionalizing acceptance of a certain amount of failure. We may never be able to resolve the inadequacy, but as long as the inadequacy exists, it should be viewed as inadequacy.

With regard to what is and is not "real" - there is a big difference between what some people call "real" and what other people call "real". Generally, when reasonable people disagree about something like that, we let each person decide for themselves, but also remember that your right right to swing their arm ends before it intersects with someone else's body. While parents are the default trustees of the rights of their children, but they are only trustees. Trustees who aren't trustworthy aren't worthy trustees, and children without worthy protectors are society's concern.

A swat on the but is not abuse.

Frejya disagreed with that, so it is essentially a stalemate: Let's all agree to disagree about that and move on.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Frejya disagreed with that, so it is essentially a stalemate: Let's all agree to disagree about that and move on.

Isn't that the purpose of DISCUSSION boards, to discuss similar and differing opinions as well as opinions to why?

 

[FireDancer]

While I agree that not everyone has to do it Freyja's way, that doesn't mean that it is not of anyone's business. The caring for, protection, and upbringing of children is society's business. Otherwise, society couldn't step in cases where even you would be willing to admit "abuse" is taking place. So this conflict reduces down to an argument about where the lines gets draw, not whether or not it is society's business.

You know what I find perplexing? Why is it that when a child fails or the schools are inadequate it is "society's" fault or responsibility to fix it but if that same kid goes on to graduate from Harvard or that same school out performs all the other schools in the area it is always the kid's drive or the school's attention to academics?

Society always gets the blame for failure but never the credit for victory. It can't be both ways. You can't fail because of society but succeed on your own. I will not take the blame for someone else's kid's problem unless I also get the credit for someone else's kid's achievements.

I don't see everyone else's kid as my responsibility. If I see something I perceive as abuse I'll call it in but I will be absolutely sure before I do it and I will do it by choice not out of some sense of responsibility. I am responsible for my own kids and the kids of people whom I care about. Too much butting in to how other people raise their kids is just as bad, IMO, as not enough.

 

[bicker]

Spanking just to spank is abuse, spanking to handle negative behavior is not.

Please define what you mean by "handle".

Coastal states tend to be a little bit more, um,

Compassionate.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Please define what you mean by "handle".

To discourage, to enforce change in the negative behavior. That would be "handle".