Opinions on repeating Kindergarten

[Ladyhawke10]

I'm a little nervous about posting all that stuff from another site...am I allowed to do that under copyright? I'll remove it if there's any problem? moderators??

 

[Ladyhawke10]

And when was this done? How many years ago did these children attend "K"? Was it in todays standards or when "K" was coloring 101? I have never heard of this study, not saying it doesn't exist. I'm also glad none of my sons teachers went by it either because he would be doing alot of struggling in 2nd grade instead of enjoying learning in 1st.

You know your child better than anyone else and I'm sure you made the best decision for him I did not mean to imply, in any way, that every child held back is being done a disservice....I just wanted to relay the information that I'd been taught

 

[paigevz]

I searched for the National Association for School Psychologists to get some info...but I don't know how to post links.

Here's some quotes pasted from the site...

"Impact at the elementary school level:

. While delayed entry and readiness classes may not hurt children in the short run, there is no evidence of a positive effect on either long-term school achievement or adjustment. Furthermore, by adolescence, these early retention practices are predictive of numerous health and emotional risk factors, and associated deleterious outcomes.

. Initial achievement gains may occur during the year the student is retained. However, the consistent trend across many research studies is that achievement gains decline within 2-3 years of retention, such that retained children either do no better or perform more poorly than similar groups of promoted children. This is true whether children are compared to same-grade peers or comparable students who were promoted.

Retention does not appear to have a positive impact on self-esteem or overall school adjustment; however, retention is associated with significant increases in behavior problems as measured by behavior rating scales completed by teachers and parents, with problems becoming more pronounced as the child reaches adolescence.Results indicate that grade retention had a negative impact on all areas of achievement (reading, math and language) and socio-emotional adjustment (peer relationships, self esteem, problem behaviors, and attendance).

Students who were retained or had delayed kindergarten entry are more likely to drop out of school compared to students who were never retained, even when controlling for achievement levels. Retained students have increased risks of health-compromising behaviors such as emotional distress, cigarette use, alcohol use, drug abuse, driving while drinking, use of alcohol during sexual activity, early onset of sexual activity, suicidal intentions, and violent behaviors." "Students rated grade retention as the most stressful life event, followed by the loss of a parent and going blind."

But Ladyhawke, do you think that all those result just from the retention itself? Or that kids who are retained generally are retained for academic failures or nonattendance, which are seen more frequently in families of low socioeconomic status, and all those problems are also seen more frequently in such families?

In other words, how do they prove the causality was the retention, and not that the retention was just one of the symptoms of the child's poor environment, like all the rest?

 

[Ladyhawke10]

I thought the section about the comparisions between children had to do with children that were comparable (had been promoted rather than retained when retention was recommended) and also with children that were doing well in their grade. I found that the studies were done in the 1990s, it says--and they are the combined results from 19 separate studies. I could do more research--it'd be interesting to find a valuable source with another perspective--but the nasp seems like they know what they are doing

 

[paigevz]

It is a fascinating topic. I don't really want to search the internet. I am well aware that the prevailing winds are against retention, and in fact, it takes quite a lot for us to even consider it as teachers, and then only with parent approval.

As a parent, I still am not convinced that it might not be the best thing for my child if he was having issues like the OP's child, and with that late birthdate.

I'd like to know the actual numbers. I'd also like to see a reverse study. How many kids who were retained did not have those problems? At what ages? What were the reasons for the retentions?

Oh, heck, maybe I'll do a search anyway!

 

[Ladyhawke10]

As a parent, I still am not convinced that it might not be the best thing for my child if he was having issues like the OP's child, and with that late birthdate.

!

...because I do remember reading or learning somewhere that retention was helpful in cases where students had missed a lot of school or the instruction was really different--and a full vs half day program is certainly a change.

 

[paigevz]

This was right before the part you quoted:

Some groups of children are more likely to be retained than others. Those at highest risk for retention are male; African American or Hispanic; have a late birthday, delayed development and/or attention problems; live in poverty or in a single-parent household; have parents with low educational attainment; have parents that are less involved in their education; or have changed schools frequently. Students who have behavior problems and display aggression or immaturity are more likely to be retained. Students with reading problems, including English Language Learners, are also more likely to be retained. (NASP)

So, it would follow that if most of the children retained are from these groups, many of the problems cited would also be inherent here because of the environment. I think children with several of those problems would be much more likely to experience the negatives cited whether or not they were also retained. It also does not address the differences between children who do not have these issues and are retained.

They also mention at NASP that they do not believe in social promotion either. Their solution, they go on to state past the part you quoted, is to do something for the child rather than just passing or just retaining. I would agree with this, but do think retention in the OP's case would be a good first step.

Sorry to hijack your thread, OP........................

 

[Ladyhawke10]

They also mention at NASP that they do not believe in social promotion either. Their solution, they go on to state past the part you quoted, is to do something for the child rather than just passing or just retaining. I would agree with this, but do think retention in the OP's case would be a good first step.

Sorry to hijack your thread, OP........................

Oh yes, I definitely agree with the suggestions they give to supplement a child's program is they are at risk (or part of a study team) for retention. I think the emphasis is on solving the problems that are associated with the child's low performance, and they list a lot of great advice.

 

[MerryPoppins]

OMGod!! Was I implying at all that anyone heres kids were going to prison... No!!!

I was joking.

But I think it matters a lot WHEN a kid is retained and HOW a kid is retained. Mine was okay with it, and he didn't feel like he was being pulled away from his friends (in fact since he was in a transition class his classmates were in the same situation).

I have no doubt being held back can be a traumatic situation. It just all depends. But I can say from my experience that it isn't always that way.

I don't mean to brag, but I couldn't ask for a more well-adjusted son. Giving him another year allowed him to feel successful. Instead of struggling to keep up (even though he was doing well at it), he was able to shine. I saw the changes so I believe that it was the right decision. DH was against holding him back at first and even he agrees that it was one of the smartest things we ever did.

 

[sha_lyn]

I assume you're talking to me? When I said don't hold back if they'd be 19 when they graduate - that would make them 18 if you kept them in, not 17.

In the OP's case, and most of those mentioned here (summer Bdays, or B days very early in the school yr right before the cut off) they would graduate at 17, not 18 if not retained.
I guess what I don't get is why such focuse on the age 18. Oh they should graduate before age 19...... Why? Why should 18 be the goal, instead of them graduating when they are mature/developed/educated. Many kids would/could be ready at even say 16, other not until 19 or 20.


Now for our personal experience.
DDs bday is aug 4. cut off here is Aug 31. DD attended a private preschool at age 4.
At the end of the yr the teacher had many reasons why DD was not ready for K. While she was capable of most of the "academics" in PreK, she was still about 6 months behind her classmates on fine and gross mother skills. She was the smallest in her class by far, and therefore had trouble managing. She couldn't even reach the coat hooks, storage cubicles etc. She still needed assistance with simple things, such as she couldn't reach the bathroom faucets, even in the preK bathroom. The teacher felt that K would be too much of a physical and emotional challenge for her. The teacher made 2 suggestions, we could send her to a preK program at another school that was geared toward older 4s/younger 5s. Her other suggestion was that we homeschool her at least until she caught up. We chose homeschooling and now I can't imagine sending her to public school (we were already homeschooling DS who is 8 yrs older). She is 8 now, and technically in 3rd grade. She is on or above grade level in every subject except reading. That is due to eye tracking, which is related to fine motor skills. Now that her fine motor skills have caught up with chronological age, she is making great leaps forward in her reading skills.

I OTOH attended school when the cut off was Dec 31. My Bday is Jan 9. My parents tried to get me in 1st grade at age 5. I was already reading, doing simple math etc. There weren't public K here then, so my parents sent me to a private K. I hated it. It was very boring. They were working on very basics like the alphabet, numbers, colors etc. Ele school was very easy for me and I was never challenged. Therefore I never learned good study habits. Even 9th grade advanced classes were easy for me, except for concepts I had never tried before, such as French. French blew me away, because I did not know how to study. Advanced math was a similar problem. In 10 and 11 grade I had to struggle to keep up. Luckily by 12, I learned "how to learn". something that would have come earlier and easier if I had been challenged in the lower grades.

 

[Skatermom23]

"Students rated grade retention as the most stressful life event, followed by the loss of a parent and going blind."[/B]

Okay lets keep this straight. Grade retention is NOT the same thing as DELAYED ENTRY.

 

[disykat]

In the OP's case, and most of those mentioned here (summer Bdays, or B days very early in the school yr right before the cut off) they would graduate at 17, not 18 if not retained.
I guess what I don't get is why such focuse on the age 18. Oh they should graduate before age 19...... Why? Why should 18 be the goal, instead of them graduating when they are mature/developed/educated. Many kids would/could be ready at even say 16, other not until 19 or 20.

Then they (and you) should have no problem with my OPINION that someone is doing their child a disservice by not taking into account their age at graduation.

I graduated at 17, I did well in school, but probably would have been fine if my parents had kept me back and I graduated at 18. I can't even fathom being kept back two years and graduating at 19.

My OPINION about 19 years old being too old to be in high school is probably colored by the fact that in my day only kids who were special ed were allowed to be in school past their 19th birthday. My OPINION is also colored by the fact that I personally know quite a few people that fully admit they didn't even think about the child's age at graduation - only that they wanted their child to be at the top of the class in early elementary school.

When I graduated from school in the 70's I really didn't know that many people who turned 18 very far ahead of graduation. I do remember lots of cases of "senioritis" and the desire to be out of high school and moving on with their lives. I think that it would be very hard to be old enough to vote, go to war, etc. but still have another year of high school to complete.

IMO, good students will do well regardless, but for many kids who are struggling students an extra year isn't going to necessarily change anything and could put them at risk later in their school career.

 

[mum4jenn]

You might not even have a choice. If he has missed that much school he might be held back anyway. Some systems do this if so many days are missed.

 

[Ladyhawke10]

Okay lets keep this straight. Grade retention is NOT the same thing as DELAYED ENTRY.

????

Are you addressing this to me personally or the National Association of School Psychologists website quotes? Obviously I know the difference, but maybe you were disputing what the website said, I don't know. In the quote I pasted it looks like they are responding both to delayed entry and retention when they address elementary "impact at elementary school."

 

[JenDaveBrendan]

wow- thank you so much everyone for all the opinions!! To answer some previous questions- yes, I am a SAH mom... I have considered "homeschooling" when we get down there for a couple months, and starting him fresh in the fall in K again. It is such a tough decision though! I am really at a loss.. I want to do what is best for my son, but I really don't know what that is. My gut, for some reason, is telling me to hold him back.
A little backround on DS: he is doing excellent in his half day program here - is a beginning reader, writes words and numbers, doing K math with no problems. His teacher says he is a "pleasure to have in class", as he follows directions, listens very well, gets along with peers, etc. My concern is mostly the immense changes that will be happening - moving to a new state where we don't know anyone, going from half-day to full-day school, and so on. Also he has a very reserved/shy personality and tends to stress about changes. This is my main concern and reasoning for considering holding him back. It is more about giving him more time to grow socially and "come out of his shell" a little more, and learning to stand up for himself better.
I am definatly going to make a conference time with his current teacher to see what his opinion is, maybe even the guidance councelor at his school too.
The thing is, if I do decide to hold him back, I don't want to start him in NC Kindergarten for a couple months, and then hold him back just to have to have him be in a whole new K class again in the fall. I would rather just start him fresh in the fall. I think I need to try and keep as much stability as I possibly can for him.
Another poster mentioned about the Gesell test - I would be really interested in having DS take that (the cognitive/emotional test). Who would I talk to about that?
Also, I think the reason I think of DS as a "young" K'er, is because here, the school cutoff is Sept.1, and I would say the majority of his class was already 6 in the beginning or turned 6 shortly after starting school - that is where I am coming from on that I guess.
Anyway- thanks so much again for all the advice - I greatly appreciate all the views on this!

Jen

 

[Tigger&Belle]

Jen, What will the cut-off be in NC?

 

[JenDaveBrendan]

Jen, What will the cut-off be in NC?

I'm not really sure, but I know it is later, I think Oct.1?????

 

[mom2boys]

If I were seriously considering this for my child, I would put him in a private kindergarten for the rest of this year - assuming you can get him in. That way the other kids won't realize he's repeating and he might not realize it either. It will be a lot better for his self-esteem.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

I'm not really sure, but I know it is later, I think Oct.1?????

That's something you might want to find out for sure. Also, you might want to do what I'd suggested in my first post and set up a meeting with the principal and a K teacher of the school that he will be attending (phone if you won't be down there before). Find out from them what they expect a K student to be doing at this point in the school year. I can tell you what my son is doing since he's in kindergarten (also full day), but that doesn't mean it's the same that they will expect in NC.

If he seems like he'll be ready, there are plenty of enriching activities you can do with him at home. Not hard to do, especially since you are a SAHM.

 

[momof2inPA]

Where's it going to end? First you'll have kids with Summer birthdays being held back, then the kids with Fall birthdays will be the youngest, and their parents will want to hold them back, etc. Pretty soon all the kids will be 10 before they start 1st grade.

I'm kind of kidding, but the really old kids in my son's class are almost two years older than he is, since he's a Summer birthday kid. They are the better better at sports usually, and that's what really matters to a lot of parents.