Opinions on repeating Kindergarten

[mommaU4]

What a tough decision to make.

I am in sorta the same boat except I have TWINS! One is doing better then the other and I'm dreading that I might have to hold one back and send the other on. Talk about a tough choice! Imagine being the one held back and having to explain that the rest of your school career.

Or we keep them both back and hope the one isn't bored. Or we send them both ahead and hope the other one isn't struggling constantly.

So hard to know the right thing to do with our kids isn't it?
Too bad we all don't have crystal balls so we would know how every decision we make for them will afffect them down the road.

But since we don't we all just do the best we can and start a savings account now for their therapy later!

Good luck to you!

 

[MrsKreamer]

If he's doing fine academically, don't even think about holding him back... Do you know the problems you have with a child that isn't challenged at school? I certainly do & it's not pretty If he's on track academically, there is no reason to hold him back. Having a birthday in June I don't think I'd consider being "young" for the grade... Now an August 20th birthday would be a different story...

Hey that's my birthday!

 

[sha_lyn]

Well paige and I posted at the same time, so I missed that those studies are usually in reguards to students in grades 3+.

Just curious, what is to be gained from holding a child back on the basis of maturity or work skills....and what's wrong with children being of different maturity levels in a class?

As paige said, it is because they will/can eventually fall behind academically as well.

 

[disykat]

I am also not a fan of retention. Count on your fingers. If your child will be 19 and still in high school, you aren't doing him any favors. (With a June birthday, the OP may be okay there.) I think too many people only look at the short term and fail to take the long term consequences into consideration.

If you are considering retention look at age, academics, emotional readiness, and size. If most of those things are concerns you may have a good retention candidate, but I wouldn't consider it for only one or two. I am a teacher too, and I think sometimes teachers want all their kids to come in to their class with the same skills and are too quick to recommend retention. A good teacher knows how to deal with kids at different levels. That is part of the job!

 

[sha_lyn]

How is having a 17 yr old high school graduate who isn't as mature as their 18-19 yr old counter parts doing them favors?

 

[paigevz]

Just curious, what is to be gained from holding a child back on the basis of maturity or work skills....and what's wrong with children being of different maturity levels in a class?

I'm genuinely interested..I hope that didn't come off as criticism because it isn't. I'd just like your opinion

Well, when speaking of work habits, I mean being able to attend and listen, follow several-step instructions, organize and use materials needed, know what to do when help is needed, what to do with work that is finished, what to do after work is finished, how to work with others in group or buddy work situations, how to find needed materials or resources in the classroom, and how to manage time. If the child can not do that at the appropriate level, it's really difficult for them, despite how smart they are or how much they know, to be able to perform well.

For me, the maturity I would worry about is social: can they make and keep friends, can they carry on a conversation appropriately, can they tolerate another child encroaching on their space briefly, can they read facial expressions, do they know how to diffuse anger?
and emotional: can they react appropriately to correction, do they know how to modulate their own emotions (not strike out, or laugh at an inappropriate time), can they handle the pressure and length of a school day without "down" time (not much of that past K), can they make decisions and resist peer pressure?

Now, I am speaking in a mother's voice with a teacher's viewpoint. In other words, this is what I would think of for my own child or my friend's child given my experiences as a teacher.

As a teacher, I would not hold a child back just because of these things. In fact, because I teach second grade, I rarely retain. At that level, it is more likely to affect the child negatively. I have taught a child, that if I were his parent, I would keep back. He would likely have not made it through 3rd (due to not being able to test successfully, and they have to "pass to pass"), and did not qualify for special education. His main reasons for not being successful are the emotional/social maturity issues and work habits. He is much more on a par with children 18 months younger. He chooses to be with these children more readily, and is generally more successful in a younger classroom. We sent him to a younger room for part of the day for language development, and he was far happier when we did that. As a teacher, I would not hold him back. He can make passing grades if given time in most of his subjects. I just think he would have been far happier, better off, and more successful if he were to be with those he's chosen as his peers.

In the classroom, those of differing maturity levels are not necessarily a problem as the children are all at different levels. They are often overwhelmed and overwhelming though, and as a parent, I wouldn't want that for my child.

 

[paigevz]

Well paige and I posted at the same time, so I missed that those studies are usually in reguards to students in grades 3+.

Your point was good about the "long term" too. We often forget that the K of today was the 1st of 20 years ago.

We (as in the US public schools) have not made arrangements for all kids to have the K we remember.......only those who "qualify" get this benefit now in public school. Others must seek out a "Kindergarten experience" (pre-kindergarten) on their own.

Add to that fact that the K we do have is not required in all states...........which, remember, curriculum-wise is what we remember as 1st grade.............and we really have the makings of a difficult time getting ALL kids to grade level by the end of 2nd (my job!).

 

[Ladyhawke10]

Well, when speaking of work habits, I mean being able to attend and listen, follow several-step instructions, organize and use materials needed, know what to do when help is needed, what to do with work that is finished, what to do after work is finished, how to work with others in group or buddy work situations, how to find needed materials or resources in the classroom, and how to manage time. If the child can not do that at the appropriate level, it's really difficult for them, despite how smart they are or how much they know, to be able to perform well.

For me, the maturity I would worry about is social: can they make and keep friends, can they carry on a conversation appropriately, can they tolerate another child encroaching on their space briefly, can they read facial expressions, do they know how to diffuse anger?
and emotional: can they react appropriately to correction, do they know how to modulate their own emotions (not strike out, or laugh at an inappropriate time), can they handle the pressure and length of a school day without "down" time (not much of that past K), can they make decisions and resist peer pressure?

Now, I am speaking in a mother's voice with a teacher's viewpoint. In other words, this is what I would think of for my own child or my friend's child given my experiences as a teacher.

As a teacher, I would not hold a child back just because of these things. In fact, because I teach second grade, I rarely retain. At that level, it is more likely to affect the child negatively. I have taught a child, that if I were his parent, I would keep back. He would likely have not made it through 3rd (due to not being able to test successfully, and they have to "pass to pass"), and did not qualify for special education. His main reasons for not being successful are the emotional/social maturity issues and work habits. He is much more on a par with children 18 months younger. He chooses to be with these children more readily, and is generally more successful in a younger classroom. We sent him to a younger room for part of the day for language development, and he was far happier when we did that. As a teacher, I would not hold him back. He can make passing grades if given time in most of his subjects. I just think he would have been far happier, better off, and more successful if he were to be with those he's chosen as his peers.

In the classroom, those of differing maturity levels are not necessarily a problem as the children are all at different levels. They are often overwhelmed and overwhelming though, and as a parent, I wouldn't want that for my child.

Wow, thank you. These are exactly the kind of issues I'm interested in. As far as the first section you described (work habits), do you think children can mature at later dates if diligently worked with to improve? (household chores at home, developmentally catching up in later grades....). I'm wondering if it helps children who are a immature in terms of development (the "young" child) and have poor work habits to hold them back, because that would reinforce the poor behavoirs by making things easier on them. Seems the best remedy would be to encourage the students' self-agency by outside chores, work-study skills intervention, deeper explanations (sometimes children are suffering from lack of communication and really just don't understand how to improve). I don't know, I'm just kicking around ideas. I appreciate your educated perspective! It's great

 

[daisyduck123]

I would ask for the teacher's input...I had the opposite problem though...my DD11 has an August b-day (I sent her at 5 years old) & during the 1st week of Kindergarten I had the opportunity to promote her up to 1st grade.

I told the school I didn't want to do it.

Then, next year, during the 1 st week of 1st grade...promotion was discussed again & the school really kind of pressured me, but let us think about it for a few days. Well, we ended up skipping her to 2nd & it was the best decision we ever made for her.

The principal talked about promotion again, but then I said "no".

But the school was right in skipping her the 1st time....she gets all "A"s now in the 7th grade & doesn't even try...I can't imagine how easy it would be for her if she were in the 6th grade.

My point is, the staff at many schools really do know their jobs, the curriculum, & can have great input in decisions regarding placement.

 

[disykat]

How is having a 17 yr old high school graduate who isn't as mature as their 18-19 yr old counter parts doing them favors?

I assume you're talking to me? When I said don't hold back if they'd be 19 when they graduate - that would make them 18 if you kept them in, not 17.

 

[Hannathy]

If you are moving then it is no big deal there won't be any kids from his class to know. And like the other poster say if he was in a 1/2 day program before just tell him it was a preK really and now he is in real Kindergarten. Or tell him the new school makes any one his age start in this class. As a Mother and teacher now is the time to do it,why struggle later. My sister didn't start my nephew until later and it worked out well turned 19 right after graduation. My DH on the other hand started early, was barely 17 when he graduated and didn't like it at all. He has 12 or 13 yrs ahead of him ,based on what you do, and you are worried about the 6 months he has been in school, hardly a drop in the bucket in comparison.

 

[paigevz]

Wow, thank you. These are exactly the kind of issues I'm interested in. As far as the first section you described (work habits), do you think children can mature at later dates if diligently worked with to improve? (household chores at home, developmentally catching up in later grades....). I'm wondering if it helps children who are a immature in terms of development (the "young" child) and have poor work habits to hold them back, because that would reinforce the poor behavoirs by making things easier on them. Seems the best remedy would be to encourage the students' self-agency by outside chores, work-study skills intervention, deeper explanations (sometimes children are suffering from lack of communication and really just don't understand how to improve). I don't know, I'm just kicking around ideas. I appreciate your educated perspective! It's great

I enjoy "kicking around ideas" as well. In my experience, children CAN catch up if given lots of attention towards and practice with, these skills. However, many do not. Either because it is just too much to do daily with our hectic lives, or they give up. The latter is the saddest. Can you imagine how the child feels? They are bound to try and fail, try and fail.........many times before limited success ever begins........and then it will be slow. How many times of failing does it take for the baby to think THEY are the problem? THEY must be stupid or bad or lazy. Add to that getting the wrong teacher who helps perpetuate their feelings, isn't patient with the failures, doesn't try to help succeed, but just berates...........it's a recipe for a nightmare school career. I wouldn't want to take the chance.

However, if the child is placed in an environment where their skills are more the "norm"........they should still improve the behaviors over time, at the same level as the younger peers they are with, and now they feel like everybody else, and are generally treated like everybody else.

Which would you want for your child?



Edited to say, I wouldn't see it as making it "easy" on them, just normal for them. My child has ADHD...........I know how a lot of people feel about the disorder and medicating for it.........for him, it is a "real" disorder, and the medicine "norms" him. He is able to do on his meds, what most kids can do naturally. Why would I deny him that?

 

[Tigger&Belle]

I would talk to his teacher before you move and if she thinks that he should be held back I would do that when you move--put him in a pre-K program and then the full day K program next year. Sounds like he has a lot on his plate. If possible I would make a visit to the school that he would be attending before you move there or at least talk with the principal or a kindergarten teacher on the phone and find out what skills a K student should have half way through the school year. That would help you make your decision. The move would be a good time to make a change in his school grade, moving him down at that point as opposed to having him repeat kindergarten.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

As said, those are long term studies. Therefore those students who were held back were in K 20-30 or more yrs ago. They did not attended todays accademic K.
I think the results will be very different for those who are attending K today.

I agree, K now is not the K I attended. My DS in K was writing, reading and doing math. In my K class 30 years ago, I colored. BIG DIFFERENCE!

You say you are not doing children any favors by letting them graduate at 19. I think watching them struggle through school is worse. I couldn't even imagine my DS going to K when he was supposed to. (I held him back in pre-k). He was immature,and didn't care about learning anything. Now a year later, he loves to learn and do his school work. He's in 1st grade and will be 8 in April. He knows he's the oldest in the class. But he also tells me how he loves school and how much some of the other kids struggle, in their classwork.

My cousin who is a teacher, held both her sons back. They are now both MD's. I know their are exceptions to every story but to listen to some study that says if you hold your kid back he has a better chance of being divorced and in jail is silly.

 

[MerryPoppins]

Going back to my story, my son was able to do his work. His Kindergarten grades were good, but we could see he was still struggling.

His handwriting was terrible. His organizational skills worse. He couldn't follow a series of instructions - he could do one or two things and then he had to confirm the next step. His birthday was in late June, so he was one of the youngest. By holding him back, he was one of the oldest, but he was only a year older than a few. He'll turn 19 the June after he graduates, but that's not unusual in our community anymore. The kids don't even question it.

Do I feel like he's bound for prison or divorce? Not hardly. He's bound for medical school. That extra year gave him confidence, a chance to catch up and feel more in control of his school work, more social awareness, and an understanding of the basics that he probably wouldn't have had from his scatterbrained Kindergarten days. His handwriting never did improve all that much, but most doctors have terrible handwriting, so I guess he'll fit right in.

 

[Ladyhawke10]

My cousin who is a teacher, held both her sons back. They are now both MD's. I know their are exceptions to every story but to listen to some study that says if you hold your kid back he has a better chance of being divorced and in jail is silly.

I'm not questioning the validity of the rest of your post, but I wanted to mention that the studies that show an increase of deliquency, incarceration, divorce, etc etc are on the Am. Assoc of School Psychologists brochure--so it's not one study or some off-handed hypothesis. This is the basis on which many, many school professionals go by.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

I'm not questioning the validity of the rest of your post, but I wanted to mention that the studies that show an increase of deliquency, incarceration, divorce, etc etc are on the Am. Assoc of School Psychologists brochure--so it's not one study or some off-handed hypothesis. This is the basis on which many, many school professionals go by.

And when was this done? How many years ago did these children attend "K"? Was it in todays standards or when "K" was coloring 101? I have never heard of this study, not saying it doesn't exist. I'm also glad none of my sons teachers went by it either because he would be doing alot of struggling in 2nd grade instead of enjoying learning in 1st.

 

[Ladyhawke10]

I searched for the National Association for School Psychologists to get some info...but I don't know how to post links.

Here's some quotes pasted from the site...

"Impact at the elementary school level:

. While delayed entry and readiness classes may not hurt children in the short run, there is no evidence of a positive effect on either long-term school achievement or adjustment. Furthermore, by adolescence, these early retention practices are predictive of numerous health and emotional risk factors, and associated deleterious outcomes.

. Initial achievement gains may occur during the year the student is retained. However, the consistent trend across many research studies is that achievement gains decline within 2-3 years of retention, such that retained children either do no better or perform more poorly than similar groups of promoted children. This is true whether children are compared to same-grade peers or comparable students who were promoted.

Retention does not appear to have a positive impact on self-esteem or overall school adjustment; however, retention is associated with significant increases in behavior problems as measured by behavior rating scales completed by teachers and parents, with problems becoming more pronounced as the child reaches adolescence.Results indicate that grade retention had a negative impact on all areas of achievement (reading, math and language) and socio-emotional adjustment (peer relationships, self esteem, problem behaviors, and attendance).

Students who were retained or had delayed kindergarten entry are more likely to drop out of school compared to students who were never retained, even when controlling for achievement levels. Retained students have increased risks of health-compromising behaviors such as emotional distress, cigarette use, alcohol use, drug abuse, driving while drinking, use of alcohol during sexual activity, early onset of sexual activity, suicidal intentions, and violent behaviors." "Students rated grade retention as the most stressful life event, followed by the loss of a parent and going blind."

 

[Tink&SquirtsMom]

Do I feel like he's bound for prison or divorce?

OMGod!! Was I implying at all that anyone heres kids were going to prison... No!!! However, there are extremely valid studies that suggest a correlation between retention and negative consequences (socially and academically). I wouldn't think that would happen in this case, but to deny any negative consequences when they are statically proven is more imho. And there are many, many professionals (pyschologists, teachers, pediatricians) who agree with that reasoning for not recommending retention. I would rather teach my kids to work hard and overcome any difficulties then accomodating their surroundings to them... and if anything thats the biggest change in the past 20-30 years. Now more people expect change to make things easier for the kids, where in the past more parents expected the change from their kids.

 

[Ladyhawke10]

the website itself is nasponline.org I just searched under retention to look up what they said about it

I don't mean to interfere with anyone's personal decision...because it is a very personal decision and each case is individual...I just wanted to relay what I've heard and read from my own experiences in teacher ed and online