Once again, a school, a shooter....and we do the drill yet again.....

[sam_gordon]

To be fair I also give part of the blame to our school systems. Not all but way too many think they should teach our child values.

That can be an entirely different thread.

 

[butterscotchcollins]

I just caught up on all 15 pages and I want to thank everyone for their respectful discussion. I wish every divisive topic could have this kind of calm, education- and fact-based discourse.

I’m typing this as I hold my napping baby in my arms so I feel especially motivated to find a solution to this modern problem. So many in this thread have summed up my feelings and POV better than I could but I’ll state for the record: we are gun owners who recognize that just the presence of a firearm in our home increases the likelihood of injury or death to our child. We have discussed at length, even before I got pregnant, how to raise our son to understand the inherent danger of guns and how to keep them safely locked up, ammo in a completely different place, training when he comes of age, etc. I think the social media argument can go both ways, including the glorification and fetishization of firearms in as radical a fashion as the demonization of them.

Even saying all that, guns make me nervous - even when they’re unloaded, even though I know how to handle one. It is completely insane to me that someone with nothing more than cash and willingness can legally obtain as MANY as they care to and they are not required in any way to know how to use them, be held accountable for their proper handling and storage, or (in MOST places) register them but then again what’s the point of knowing who has them and what kind if there’s no accountability. I can’t trust that my neighbor is as responsible as we are.

So tl;dr I believe in the right to own guns but just like everything else that requires a modicum of common sense I believe that right comes with responsibility and that is the uniform legislation we are lacking.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm curious. Did you intentionally not bold where @mrodgers also mentioned mental health? Don't most other countries have different (I'm not going to use "better" because that's subjective) types of health care? Instead of focusing on the parent/family issue, maybe the health care issue? Or, wait for it, MULTIPLE issues? Do you think it could be MULTIPLE things that are allowing this to happen?

Can people not admit the US is different from other countries, in LOTS of things? Many of which can factor into the number of shootings?

I do think differences in the US have a lot to do with the problem. We've touched on one facet of that with the conversation about mental health and the fact that health care, especially for adults not stable enough to hold steady employment, is pretty hard to come by, and by the fact that we really don't have good treatment options even when that adult has family or other loved ones searching high and low for care. And obviously we've talked about gun culture. But I also think the pressure cooker atmosphere of growing up in a sink-or-swim society, where young people know from the time they come of age that one wrong choice in grades or college or career can mean a lifetime of struggling with student loan debt, where the expectation of entering adulthood after leaving school is increasingly colliding with the impossibility of making that work financially, of knowing there's no safety net or lifeline if you screw up (no matter how unintentionally), has a lot to do with the anxiety and anger of the younger generation. Combine that with the increasing disconnectedness of the digital age, the lack of healthy opportunities to socialize and meet people (particularly in young adulthood), and the cultural taboos against talking about loneliness or depression or other mental issues (esp. among men, who are the vast majority of shooters), and we really have set up about the most dysfunctional environment we could for younger generations. And that's happening on a scale far bigger than any one parent's choices.

 

[kymom99]

I do think differences in the US have a lot to do with the problem. We've touched on one facet of that with the conversation about mental health and the fact that health care, especially for adults not stable enough to hold steady employment, is pretty hard to come by, and by the fact that we really don't have good treatment options even when that adult has family or other loved ones searching high and low for care. And obviously we've talked about gun culture. But I also think the pressure cooker atmosphere of growing up in a sink-or-swim society, where young people know from the time they come of age that one wrong choice in grades or college or career can mean a lifetime of struggling with student loan debt, where the expectation of entering adulthood after leaving school is increasingly colliding with the impossibility of making that work financially, of knowing there's no safety net or lifeline if you screw up (no matter how unintentionally), has a lot to do with the anxiety and anger of the younger generation. Combine that with the increasing disconnectedness of the digital age, the lack of healthy opportunities to socialize and meet people (particularly in young adulthood), and the cultural taboos against talking about loneliness or depression or other mental issues (esp. among men, who are the vast majority of shooters), and we really have set up about the most dysfunctional environment we could for younger generations. And that's happening on a scale far bigger than any one parent's choices.

My son had a friend in grade school who was always “glass half empty”. He was a hefty kid until he suddenly lost a lot of weight. His mom confided that they had to put him on depression medicine which caused the weight loss. He would never join clubs or sports teams. One day in the summer mom asked if he could hang at our house while she took her other son somewhere. He was certainly old enough to stay alone but I said sure he could come. When he got here I noticed he had scrapes all over his feet. He said something about them being itchy. I believe he was going through stuff and his mom didn’t want to share the details and didn’t want to leave him alone. I’m pretty sure he was self harming. His mom was an always trying to help him stay happy, running the kids everywhere snd hosting sleepovers. As time went on he stole his grandpas credit card and tried to buy a guitar online. He started cutting and spent time in children’s psychiatric. I called a school counselor because I was concerned about letting my son sleep over at his house if he was self harming. The counselor said kids who self harm don’t typically exhibit violence towards others, so I let my son continue to spend time at his house. The friend was failing his classes. My son and his friends tried supporting him by staying after school to help him get caught up. He would go home and skip out in them. Everything came to a head when my son and another kid were out with him and he shoplifted a large amount of stuff. My son got in trouble along with him but fortunately was not turned in to juvenile. I was angry at my son for not walking away and calling me but honestly he didn’t know how to handle the situation. This was summer after sophomore year. I told my son we were finished. The boy transferred to another school and we haven’t seen him since. I am friends with his mom on Facebook but I never see anything about him. I wonder what happened to him. I always worried he would do something that would make the news but thankfully he hasn’t. It’s not like his mom wasn’t trying and it’s not like he didn’t have opportunities for help.

I don’t know the answers to these mental health issues. But I hope his parents never allowed him to purchase a gun.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I thought it was interesting apparently my county has just received basically a $310K grant from the DOJ (so in the grand scheme not much) to create a mental health court program with the set goal of "build on our efforts to divert people who have been diagnosed with mental health and/or substance use disorders away from the criminal justice system and reduce their incarceration rates.”

"incarcerated individuals with mental illness spend on average 21 days in jail and are at higher risk for physical illness and death. The primary goal of the Mental Health Court the county said is to increase public safety, increase engagement with treatment and improve quality of life."

County employees already "collaborates with the District Attorney’s Office, the Sheriff’s Office, the District Court, and municipal law enforcement agencies to reduce incarceration rates for this population by assisting them in accessing high quality mental health treatment services. These collaborations have resulted in successful programs such as the Veteran’s Treatment Court, Assisted Outpatient Treatment Program, co-responder programs with local municipalities, and the Mental Health Diversion program."

 

[sam_gordon]

FWIW, a 15 year old brought a loaded handgun into a HS on Thursday. Another student found out about it, notified authorities, and the school went into lockdown. There are metal detectors at the school. It came out yesterday that the student followed a class into the building after school had started.

https://www.lex18.com/news/day-after-gun-found-in-henry-clay-high-school-more-information-released

 

[PollyannaMom]

And an even younger one:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...boston-elementary-school-police-say-rcna54515

 

[AussieFan8]

I understand the desire to try to see the mass shooting risk as precipitated by a single factor - access to guns, lack of mental health treatment options, etc. It would make it easier to solve and prevent. But unfortunately, that is just not the case. It is obviously very difficult to predict when a mass shooting will take place, but there are common factors to look for, including access to guns, but also identification with previous mass shooters, hardening of viewpoint with a targeted group on which anger and blame is directed, hostility, a recent loss, despair, social isolation, etc. Sometimes there is no history of mental health diagnosis/treatment. These shootings are typically planned in advance, and most will say something on social media or tell someone their plans. One thing we can all do better is listen and watch, have our kids do the same, and take any threats seriously and report them.

ETA: there are many articles out there about precipitating factors/commonalities; here is one: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/pre-attack-behaviors-of-active-shooters-in-us-2000-2013.pdf/view

 

[CdnCarrie]

I do think differences in the US have a lot to do with the problem. We've touched on one facet of that with the conversation about mental health and the fact that health care, especially for adults not stable enough to hold steady employment, is pretty hard to come by, and by the fact that we really don't have good treatment options even when that adult has family or other loved ones searching high and low for care. And obviously we've talked about gun culture. But I also think the pressure cooker atmosphere of growing up in a sink-or-swim society, where young people know from the time they come of age that one wrong choice in grades or college or career can mean a lifetime of struggling with student loan debt, where the expectation of entering adulthood after leaving school is increasingly colliding with the impossibility of making that work financially, of knowing there's no safety net or lifeline if you screw up (no matter how unintentionally), has a lot to do with the anxiety and anger of the younger generation. Combine that with the increasing disconnectedness of the digital age, the lack of healthy opportunities to socialize and meet people (particularly in young adulthood), and the cultural taboos against talking about loneliness or depression or other mental issues (esp. among men, who are the vast majority of shooters), and we really have set up about the most dysfunctional environment we could for younger generations. And that's happening on a scale far bigger than any one parent's choices.

I think this is a valid point. Not sure about other countries so may be way off base here.
And much of my knowledge of US colleges is based off tv and message boards lol.

Appears to me that the In the US college entrance is much more stressful.
We don’t have SATs, interviews, application essays for the most part. Except for rural kids it’s much more common to go to college local and live at home. We don’t have private colleges except some faith based ones and tuition is much lower.

 

[MrsPete]

We don’t have SATs, interviews, application essays for the most part. Except for rural kids it’s much more common to go to college local and live at home. We don’t have private colleges except some faith based ones and tuition is much lower.

No universities in my state have required SATs or ACTs since Covid-19 began, and before that SATs/ACTs were mainly required only by large state universities (so most private schools and all community colleges did not).
Interviews are extremely rare for college admissions.
Application essays are not required for most university applications. They are common for scholarship applications.

Having taught high school seniors ... well, forever, I promise you: They say they're stressed out by college applications, but they aren't. They're scared of making the adult choices that're facing. They're afraid of making mistakes. Even if they don't love high school and their home life, they're afraid of leaving the world they know. But the actual applications themselves -- after the kids start them -- aren't really stressful.

I've heard kids say, "THAT was it? Why didn't I do that two months ago?"

 

[NotUrsula]

While I see the PP's point about pressure-cooker academics for some kids, I know for sure that this kid didn't go to a pressure-cooker school, and honestly, I don't think many of the young men who have done this were under that particular kind of pressure. These kids tend not to be ambitious in the conventional sense, not particularly diligent with their studies, and not well-integrated into the social life of their schools. I think that with a lot of them, their parents are just relieved if & when they manage to finish high school.

CVPA is not a school that sends all that many kids to competitive colleges. It's a magnet, but not an academic magnet; the focus is the arts. On the state proficiency test, their most recent score was Language 25.6%, Math 8.5%, and Science 4.8%. Less than half of students take the ACT, and the avg. score for those that do is 16. It does have a high graduation rate, mostly thanks to a really dedicated staff and what is known as a "fun" atmosphere, and about 69% of students do at least enroll in college, but for the vast majority of them, that's a vocational program at the local community college. The best of them tend to go to our state flagship or to Webster University, a local school that has a strong music program. Last year no student reported enrollment at an out-of-state college. The poverty rate of school families is 99.7%.

Students who go to CVPA must audition, but word is that the standard is not especially high.
The kid in question did not seem to excel at any of the arts in particular; he has been best remembered by the staff as a dependable stage hand.

FWIW, Collegiate, the other high school that shares a building with CVPA (they share the gym, auditorium, and commons areas, but classrooms and the lunch room are separate) is a different animal altogether. That one is a STEM-focused academic magnet, the second-best public school in the district, and better than quite a few of the private schools as well. There is a lottery to get in. The avg. ACT is 24, and the state proficiency scores are all above 75%. A lot more of them attempt Bachelor's degrees, but a significant percentage who are low-income stick to science-based community college vocational programs (there is a pipeline in place that funds lab-tech training.)

 

[Colleen27]

I think this is a valid point. Not sure about other countries so may be way off base here.
And much of my knowledge of US colleges is based off tv and message boards lol.

Appears to me that the In the US college entrance is much more stressful.
We don’t have SATs, interviews, application essays for the most part. Except for rural kids it’s much more common to go to college local and live at home. We don’t have private colleges except some faith based ones and tuition is much lower.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the process itself but everything it reflects in terms of the big adult decisions that accompany it. DD is a freshman and has friends already stressing out because a C or D in a class this year could mean the difference between getting into a school that meets full need and having to borrow big money for a four-year degree. They're already conscious of the fact that they have to choose a high-paying field if they want to go to college because their parents can't afford it and they can't very well borrow for all of their unmet need and live a decent life as a teacher, never mind taking a chance on a longer-shot dream like working in music or the theatre. The community college vs. university decision looms really large too as they get into application season because CC is cheaper but transfer students get almost no merit aid so those two cheaper years come at the price of probably paying full retail to finish. Things like that, from what I understand, don't weigh as heavily on students in other countries where higher ed is still relatively affordable. Likewise, the college vs. no college decision is huge when a lot of the adults you know who didn't go to college don't have health insurance (or can't afford to use the insurance they have) and live perpetually from paycheck to paycheck while many of the adults you know who did go to college are struggling to make ends meet after paying their student loans. I don't think the transition from adolescence to adulthood is easy anywhere, but I imagine it is somewhat less stressful in cultures where the path to at least a minimally stable adulthood is less narrow and littered with fewer pitfalls. It is hard enough navigating all those big questions of career and identity and relationships and independence without the constant stream of messages warning of dire consequences to any misstep and a steady diet of stories of people who did everything "right" and still can't afford a house or marriage or kids or whatever hallmarks of adulthood the young person might aspire to for himself.