Intermittent FMLA

[Snowflakey]

Hi friends. Looking forward to your replies on this.

In a nutshell, I've been approved for intermittent FMLA for my husband's upcoming surgery from February thru early May.

My manager is telling me that I can't work around caring for my husband. But when I applied for this, this is what leave management said I needed was the intermittent so I could work some while still being able to bring husband to appointments and assist when needed.

Manager also suggested I take two full weeks off after surgery and reassess after. I told her I'm not taking continuous FMLA so why would I take full weeks off?

Yes, all paperwork from surgeon/doctor has supported the time frame and intermittent care.

When I research it all says what I thought, that I am able to work intermittently.

I work remote most of the week, going into the office for a few hours (2-3) for 3 days.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

[easyas123]

I'm not sure what your question is - Is it what should you do? How should you approach your manager?

Who approved you? That's where you start for clarification -
But my recommendation is to follow the guidance of your HR dept., and follow up with them in writing. Ask them to clarify this to your manager. If you HAVEN'T put this thru your HR dept and only discussed it with your manager you need to protect yourself and do it properly, go thru HR. If your Company doesn't have a HR dept then create a paper trail and confirm what you are doing and cite the FMLA policy you are attempting to follow.

That's what I would recommend any employee I have do, and I have 140 employees. Good luck to you and I hope your husband had a healthy recovery.

 

[Sprinkles&Sprints]

I’m not an attorney so I can’t speak to the legality of what your manager is advising but when I took intermittent FMLA for my own care it was so I could take chunks of certain days off for medical appointments - it’s a prime example of what it would be used for.

So if it was me, I would discuss the details of your needs with HR and they can advise your manager on how it will work. As a manager of a large team myself, it’s not your manager’s call.

 

[Snowflakey]

I’m not an attorney so I can’t speak to the legality of what your manager is advising but when I took intermittent FMLA for my own care it was so I could take chunks of certain days off for medical appointments - it’s a prime example of what it would be used for.

So if it was me, I would discuss the details of your needs with HR and they can advise your manager on how it will work. As a manager of a large team myself, it’s not your managers’ call.

Thank you. My manager is who I talked to yesterday but said that she talked to HR. She said HR and the leave management teams are separate.

Yes, I would be using time to bring him to weekly appointments (he can't drive) and some care

 

[Snowflakey]

I'm not sure what your question is - Is it what should you do? How should you approach your manager?

Who approved you? That's where you start for clarification -
But my recommendation is to follow the guidance of your HR dept., and follow up with them in writing. Ask them to clarify this to your manager. If you HAVEN'T put this thru your HR dept and only discussed it with your manager you need to protect yourself and do it properly, go thru HR. If your Company doesn't have a HR dept then create a paper trail and confirm what you are doing and cite the FMLA policy you are attempting to follow.

That's what I would recommend any employee I have do, and I have 140 employees. Good luck to you and I hope your husband had a healthy recovery.

I am approved by our leave management team for Intermittent FMLA.

My question is, if I follow guidance from HR they are saying I can't work some hours and use my Intermittent FMLA. Example: I worked from 7-noon and then had to use FMLA to bring husband to appointment. They are saying I can't do that but that is exactly what Intermittent FMLA is for.....

 

[lanejudy]

Your manager doesn't really get a say in the matter -- other than they can require that you submit the dates/times in advance so as to manage scheduling needs (if that pertains).

I use intermittent FMLA to take 1 day off per week to help with DH's needs. I do have it as a set schedule so it's the same every week and I submit the "request" 3-4 weeks in advance (just each week I go in and add the next date). This allows my manager to see my availability for scheduling projects.

I assume his appointments are (or will be) scheduled in advance. Then you just have to figure out what "other" needs he has that will require your assistance. Are you anticipating daily? Weekly? No need to answer here just this is what you have to think about and try to plan. You should still be able to adjust the actual leave dates/hours.

 

[lanejudy]

My question is, if I follow guidance from HR they are saying I can't work some hours and use my Intermittent FMLA. Example: I worked from 7-noon and then had to use FMLA to bring husband to appointment. They are saying I can't do that but that is exactly what Intermittent FMLA is for.....

You are correct. That is exactly what FMLA allows. Make sure your leave management has approved it as X hours and not X days.

ETA: can you schedule a conference call with the leave management office, HR and your manager? This might help HR and your manager understand what your rights are, and help work out a way to allow the schedule that you need.

 

[focusondisney]

I am approved by our leave management team for Intermittent FMLA.

My question is, if I follow guidance from HR they are saying I can't work some hours and use my Intermittent FMLA. Example: I worked from 7-noon and then had to use FMLA to bring husband to appointment. They are saying I can't do that but that is exactly what Intermittent FMLA is for.....

I had it to care for my mom a few years ago. I’m in NY State. I had to take full days, not some FMLA hours & work a partial day. Maybe that’s the issue? I would clarify with your leave management team, since they’re the ones who approved it.

*Intermittent meant intermittent days of work, not hours. So I was able to take off a day I needed to be with her, but work the next day if I did not. The system was set up to pay full days of pay, not hourly.

 

[easyas123]

leave management team

Interesting, I'm not familiar with Leave Management Teams.

*Intermittent meant intermittent days of work, not hours.

Ah - that may very well be where Snowflakey is finding the problem to be.

 

[lanejudy]

*Intermittent meant intermittent days of work, not hours. So I was able to take off a day I needed to be with her, but work the next day if I did not. The system was set up to pay full days of pay, not hourly.

That's not correct. Intermittent only means it isn't consecutive dates for time off. FMLA time can be taken in as little as 1 hour blocks. However, it may depend on how payroll is set-up -- if pay is calculated per-hour or per-day. It sounds like your payroll didn't calculate partial days thus you had to take full days.

 

[Skippy918]

The DOL says you can use increments of 1 hour. So if you only need 2 hours a day, you shouldn’t be required to take the whole day as fmla.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/28i-fmla-leave-calculation

This post here sounds like a similar situation to yours.
https://www.justanswer.com/employment-law/l7xzc-intermittent-fmla-employer-uses-increments-1.html

From what I read, your schedule shouldn’t be too disruptive to the employer’s operations.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-...bchapter-C/part-825/subpart-B/section-825.203

 

[focusondisney]

That's not correct. Intermittent only means it isn't consecutive dates for time off. FMLA time can be taken in as little as 1 hour blocks. However, it may depend on how payroll is set-up -- if pay is calculated per-hour or per-day. It sounds like your payroll didn't calculate partial days thus you had to take full days.

That’s exactly what I said. Also, NY state has their own Family Leave program. For my employer, it takes precedence over the federal program. Each state may have different terms that still accommodate the national requirements.

 

[Skippy918]

What’s the smallest increment of sick or vacation time you are allowed? Are you allowed to take partial days off?

 

[lanejudy]

That’s exactly what I said. Also, NY state has their own Family Leave program. For my employer, it takes precedence over the federal program. Each state may have different terms that still accommodate the national requirements.

Sorry, I thought you were stating FMLA can only be taken in full days. The state cannot create limitations to what the federal allows; the state can be more generous. The federal allows time to be taken in minimum of 1 hour, but it is based on how timesheets/payroll is calculated by the employer. If partial time-off is allowed for any other reason, the employer must allow partial time off for FMLA.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think how your work is done matters a lot more than what we say here as they would interact with the rules of both your state and the policies of your company.

But to give an example when I was at the insurance company when someone was on FMLA time, which was not required to be whole days but could be used in chunks of time, you could do work, leave, then come back and work. Honestly many I knew were using FMLA for their own health so that can be a different situation and many didn't come back to work that day. The structure of the work environment in a call center also made that a lot different. At that time there was 1 and only 1 team that was remote (about 12 or so people) so you would have had to come back to the actual office building to complete your work day.

There is a difference between incremental and intermittent IMO when describing the usage of your FMLA time. I'm not talking about maybe the exact definition your company uses but just to separate it out for explanation sake.

To me incremental is that you need shorter times within a day like for an appointment that is for a defined amount of time, sometimes more time in that day would be needed especially as care intensifies maybe multiple appointments or more care after the appointment that sort of thing.

But Intermittent to me means every so often you need to use FMLA time. It is sorta IMO like bereavement leave when a company defines it as X amount of days but not required to be used consecutively because you may need a day to set up funeral arrangements but you don't need the next day but then you might need the day for the actual funeral, that sort of situation.

So for the OP that IMO could be where there's differences in guidance. If HR is saying you can't use intermittent usage it may be because the policy isn't set up for chunks of time in a day when the rest of the day is available for you to work. It could be they more mean your situation is calling for incremental usage (again my way of describing it).

Also at the insurance company I worked in order to qualify for FMLA you had to use up your vacation time first since PTO was a "don't ask don't tell" policy to be used for whatever you wanted be it sickness, shopping, actual vacation, etc. That could be used in increments of 15 mins at a time. That was for hourly employees.

Does your company have policies written down in an employee handbook that would allow you to more clearly understand what options are available?

 

[TwoMisfits]

So, it sounds like the management concern is that you may use the intermittent FMLA abusively. It's one thing to take hour chunks out of the time you'd be teleworking daily vs taking hourly chunks on the 3 days you go in 2-3 hours but then work the telework hours those days.

So, I can see the desire to mandate a day vs an hour concept from management's perspective, especially if your telework does not have defined end projects or required hours (like virtually manning a phone line) PER DAY.

I mean, they can't stop you from doing it your way. But I'd imagine they would internalize how this went for future personnel decisions (like bonuses, raises, draw downs, etc) if you did "win" this fight.

PS - I get this sense b/c of the manager wanting you to take 2 weeks off after surgery. Normally, folks through surgery do need a few days of full time care, even at home, and I sense the manager thinks your focus will be on the family and not the job.

 

[Snowflakey]

What’s the smallest increment of sick or vacation time you are allowed? Are you allowed to take partial days off?

Yes, I can take it in hours

 

[Snowflakey]

That's not correct. Intermittent only means it isn't consecutive dates for time off. FMLA time can be taken in as little as 1 hour blocks. However, it may depend on how payroll is set-up -- if pay is calculated per-hour or per-day. It sounds like your payroll didn't calculate partial days thus you had to take full days.

Exactly how I look at it. Pay is calculated per hour for me.

 

[Snowflakey]

So, it sounds like the management concern is that you may use the intermittent FMLA abusively. It's one thing to take hour chunks out of the time you'd be teleworking daily vs taking hourly chunks on the 3 days you go in 2-3 hours but then work the telework hours those days.

So, I can see the desire to mandate a day vs an hour concept from management's perspective, especially if your telework does not have defined end projects or required hours (like virtually manning a phone line) PER DAY.

I mean, they can't stop you from doing it your way. But I'd imagine they would internalize how this went for future personnel decisions (like bonuses, raises, draw downs, etc) if you did "win" this fight.

PS - I get this sense b/c of the manager wanting you to take 2 weeks off after surgery. Normally, folks through surgery do need a few days of full time care, even at home, and I sense the manager thinks your focus will be on the family and not the job.

I don't think I agree - I'm trying to WORK around times I may need to help my husband so how could that be looked at as abusing intermittent FMLA?

Also, I had read that they really have no say when it comes to time I'm going to take off or work. I'm protected and I have been approved for intermittent. ALso, they can't hold against me any time off I took while on FMLA protection.

 

[Snowflakey]

I think how your work is done matters a lot more than what we say here as they would interact with the rules of both your state and the policies of your company.

But to give an example when I was at the insurance company when someone was on FMLA time, which was not required to be whole days but could be used in chunks of time, you could do work, leave, then come back and work. Honestly many I knew were using FMLA for their own health so that can be a different situation and many didn't come back to work that day. The structure of the work environment in a call center also made that a lot different. At that time there was 1 and only 1 team that was remote (about 12 or so people) so you would have had to come back to the actual office building to complete your work day.

There is a difference between incremental and intermittent IMO when describing the usage of your FMLA time. I'm not talking about maybe the exact definition your company uses but just to separate it out for explanation sake.

To me incremental is that you need shorter times within a day like for an appointment that is for a defined amount of time, sometimes more time in that day would be needed especially as care intensifies maybe multiple appointments or more care after the appointment that sort of thing.

But Intermittent to me means every so often you need to use FMLA time. It is sorta IMO like bereavement leave when a company defines it as X amount of days but not required to be used consecutively because you may need a day to set up funeral arrangements but you don't need the next day but then you might need the day for the actual funeral, that sort of situation.

So for the OP that IMO could be where there's differences in guidance. If HR is saying you can't use intermittent usage it may be because the policy isn't set up for chunks of time in a day when the rest of the day is available for you to work. It could be they more mean your situation is calling for incremental usage (again my way of describing it).

Also at the insurance company I worked in order to qualify for FMLA you had to use up your vacation time first since PTO was a "don't ask don't tell" policy to be used for whatever you wanted be it sickness, shopping, actual vacation, etc. That could be used in increments of 15 mins at a time. That was for hourly employees.

Does your company have policies written down in an employee handbook that would allow you to more clearly understand what options are available?

No they don't have clear policies - just a short paragraph about FMLA and how you could qualify for it, one being intermittent which is what I got.