Old Epcot is missed
- Thread starter King Triton
- Start date
I remember being at Epcot when I was a teenager back in the 1980's. The lines were incredible. At SE, the lines literally went out the sphere, and through the lines that you see on the outside of the attraction. It was the same with all the "boring" rides that Epcot used to have.
To me, there was something magical about riding "up the ramp" on the outside of WoM after dark, prior to entering the major portion of the ride. I remember Magic Journeys at JIY and the original JIY ride. (BTW, I do love HISTA!). Horizons was great, too.
Of course, I really loved Earth Station at the base of SE, where you had to make your dining ressies. It was so cool to talk with those reservationists on the "video phones".
(Sigh)..I still love Epcot. I love all the live entertainment now at WS. I think WS has improved overall, although I would love to see new countries and new attractions added. But FW has sunk in my opinion. I do like the changes to Universe of Energy, however.
To me, there was something magical about riding "up the ramp" on the outside of WoM after dark, prior to entering the major portion of the ride. I remember Magic Journeys at JIY and the original JIY ride. (BTW, I do love HISTA!). Horizons was great, too.
Of course, I really loved Earth Station at the base of SE, where you had to make your dining ressies. It was so cool to talk with those reservationists on the "video phones".
(Sigh)..I still love Epcot. I love all the live entertainment now at WS. I think WS has improved overall, although I would love to see new countries and new attractions added. But FW has sunk in my opinion. I do like the changes to Universe of Energy, however.
King Triton
DIS Veteran
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- Feb 10, 2000
- Messages
- 580
Remember the Imagination song from the original Imagination ride? Remember Dreamfinder hanging out with figment on his awesome flying machine? (Why did Disney take that out? Bad decision!) My family would sing that song the rest of the day. 
Remember the smell of the oranges and the glimpse into the future with Horizons? You were high on wonderment all day after riding it. 
These wonderful dark rides was the charm and magic of Epcot. Your mind will filled with dreams of what the future could be. THIS WAS THE DISNEY EXPERIENCE.
I feel so sorry for the people who visit Epcot today for the first time. They have no idea what they missed.
I love Disney and I hate to see bad decisions from management that takes the magic into a different direction. My best advice to the top suits at Disney is to stick to the magic! That is what made Disney the best.
Ohhhh, the wonderful memories of those dark rides. I'm about to tear up now. I miss them so.
Remember the smell of the oranges and the glimpse into the future with Horizons? You were high on wonderment all day after riding it. These wonderful dark rides was the charm and magic of Epcot. Your mind will filled with dreams of what the future could be. THIS WAS THE DISNEY EXPERIENCE. I feel so sorry for the people who visit Epcot today for the first time. They have no idea what they missed.
I love Disney and I hate to see bad decisions from management that takes the magic into a different direction. My best advice to the top suits at Disney is to stick to the magic! That is what made Disney the best.
Ohhhh, the wonderful memories of those dark rides. I'm about to tear up now. I miss them so.
rocketriter
DIS Veteran
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- Nov 14, 2003
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- 2,316
Part of the reason why EPCOT has been difficult to update is probably the fact that it never had a clear focus in the first place. Walt's vision, of course, had nothing to do with the current park. Later the company took a concept for a world's fair park and an entirely different concept for a technology showcase, literally hooked one onto the tail of the other, and launched the current park. How can the company figure out the best way to update EPCOT if they don't know what it was in the first place? Even the design themes they already have are being violated. The tech pavilions are nice examples of early 1970's contemporary architecture, but Disney has been tacking white gingerbread decorations onto them lately. And how can anyone excuse the dreadful EPCOT sign that's been bolted onto Spaceship Earth?
It's a bit true of other new parks as well. Is MGM a working studio, a look behind the scenes or just attractions based on movies? It's been moving away from the former and toward the latter. Is AK a place to see live animals or a place for rides based on animal concepts? It will be interesting to see what direction future attractions lean in.
As for EPCOT, I think the original concept was simply to show the progression of technology and ingenuity over time. The problem is that it's hard to update that concept. The past doesn't change and really the future, or at least our perception of it, doesn't change much either. I still contend that Horizons portrayed a vision of the future that hasn't been realized yet. Nothing in Future World really portrays a vision of the future anyway but rather shows the state-of-the-art in energy (we do have solar and wind power), land (we do have hydroponics) and motion (they do test cars that way).
I'd like to see it look more like a livable, future city but have no idea how that could be achieved.
treesinger
<font color=blue>Runs in fear from the <font color
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- Feb 9, 2002
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I think one VERY important note to consider is that EPCOT has become Epcot. Disney management quietly de-emphasized the acronym for the pronoun. I think this was an "Image" move that they think allows them to be more flexible with the attractions. That said, I don't think they strayed far from the EPCOT image at all, except for the addition of thrill into the rides. M:I educates us on what space travel feels like. TT highlights the technology that protects us everyday. Soarin' is one I've never been on so I can't comment there. JIYI is an inferior replacement, but it isn't violating the spirit of the attraction.
I loved the old rides too. But I think the replaced rides were ones that guests stopped going on in large numbers. Like CoP and Timekeeper in MK. I remember reading about Horizons (on Screamscape?) and that when they went to demolish the building, the structure was found to be seriously decaying, near the point of condemnation. It may have been a blessing in disguise. World of Motion being replaced by TT can be argued as a natural progression from viewing the history of transportation to experiencing the present. Though I would have preferred TT as an addition to WoM.
Where many see the changes as a violation of what they loved, I see it as progress in the spirit of the rides they replaced, minus JIYI. I also think that project Gemini, should the rumor be true, would be a welcome change to the harsh metal and concrete landscape that dominates FW now.
And SE? *sigh* I love it, and I'll always revisit it. But I think I may not lament its replacing. This ride was way ahead of its time at it's inception. But today it is history only masquerading as a ride about the past AND the future. Though I'd miss SE, I'm anxious to see the plans for a possible replacement.
I loved the old rides too. But I think the replaced rides were ones that guests stopped going on in large numbers. Like CoP and Timekeeper in MK. I remember reading about Horizons (on Screamscape?) and that when they went to demolish the building, the structure was found to be seriously decaying, near the point of condemnation. It may have been a blessing in disguise. World of Motion being replaced by TT can be argued as a natural progression from viewing the history of transportation to experiencing the present. Though I would have preferred TT as an addition to WoM.
Where many see the changes as a violation of what they loved, I see it as progress in the spirit of the rides they replaced, minus JIYI. I also think that project Gemini, should the rumor be true, would be a welcome change to the harsh metal and concrete landscape that dominates FW now.
And SE? *sigh* I love it, and I'll always revisit it. But I think I may not lament its replacing. This ride was way ahead of its time at it's inception. But today it is history only masquerading as a ride about the past AND the future. Though I'd miss SE, I'm anxious to see the plans for a possible replacement.
treesinger
<font color=blue>Runs in fear from the <font color
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- Feb 9, 2002
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- 1,774
There's one thing all the other rides have that Horizons didn't. Lines to get in. I don't have any facts in front of me, but wasn't Horizons a rather neglected ride from the guest per hour perspective? FTR, I did enjoy this ride but I dig M:I MUCH more.
Another Voice
Charter Member of The Element
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2000
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- 3,191
"Walt's vision, of course, had nothing to do with the current park."
Well, yes and no.
World Showcase was orginally intended to be the central attraction in "downtown EPCOT" and would have taken up a good chunck of the domed area right next to the central hotel. The ideas back then were pretty much as it we see it today - various national pavilions with restaruants, shopping and a few attractions. There are renderings showing EPCOT's central peoplemover gliding overhead.
After Roy dropped the city idea there was a lot of work done to make World Showcase a seperate park. The final concept was to have been located near the TTC and looked somewhat - bizzare. The pavilions would have been located in two white semi-circular buildings with an open courtyard in the middle.
The city of EPCOT would have also included a series of "showcase" for major corporations and industries - essentially a world fair type of pavilion that can be traced directly to the original pavilions at EPCOT Center. It seemed to have been an opened question about whether these would have been located in the industrial zone or clustered together in EPCOT's downtown area.
I think it goes to far to say that EPCOT Center had nothing to do with Walt's EPCOT, but instead the current park takes selected elements of Walt's idea and jumbles them together. Then, sadly, new management showed up with an extreme dislike for EPCOT Center to begin with and things have gone downhill from there.
P.S. To fight the "futre becomes the present" problem all of the original EPCOT agreements required the pavilions to be replaced at least every ten years. The buildings and shows were designed to accomidate updating, and CommniCore was designed to chaged even more frequently. However, Eisner simply refused to spend the money after he though the public rejected his 'Health' pavilion. The problem's with Epcot aren't in its concept - it's in the way Disney excutes them.
Well, yes and no.
World Showcase was orginally intended to be the central attraction in "downtown EPCOT" and would have taken up a good chunck of the domed area right next to the central hotel. The ideas back then were pretty much as it we see it today - various national pavilions with restaruants, shopping and a few attractions. There are renderings showing EPCOT's central peoplemover gliding overhead.
After Roy dropped the city idea there was a lot of work done to make World Showcase a seperate park. The final concept was to have been located near the TTC and looked somewhat - bizzare. The pavilions would have been located in two white semi-circular buildings with an open courtyard in the middle.
The city of EPCOT would have also included a series of "showcase" for major corporations and industries - essentially a world fair type of pavilion that can be traced directly to the original pavilions at EPCOT Center. It seemed to have been an opened question about whether these would have been located in the industrial zone or clustered together in EPCOT's downtown area.
I think it goes to far to say that EPCOT Center had nothing to do with Walt's EPCOT, but instead the current park takes selected elements of Walt's idea and jumbles them together. Then, sadly, new management showed up with an extreme dislike for EPCOT Center to begin with and things have gone downhill from there.
P.S. To fight the "futre becomes the present" problem all of the original EPCOT agreements required the pavilions to be replaced at least every ten years. The buildings and shows were designed to accomidate updating, and CommniCore was designed to chaged even more frequently. However, Eisner simply refused to spend the money after he though the public rejected his 'Health' pavilion. The problem's with Epcot aren't in its concept - it's in the way Disney excutes them.
Upon my first visit in 1986 lines were steady, but by the mid-90s I could walk onto Horizons, peer down the row of hovering carriages and not see anyone. I guess repeat customers stopped repeating and new guests bypassed it. I don't get why as it was probably my favourite attraction. Was it a poor ride, bad location, or an indication that people truly want shorter thrill rides?
coloradomtgirl
Earning My Ears
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2004
- Messages
- 4
Well, it is easy to see that while we are all Disney fans (and possibly FANatics) that we all like something different. I have never liked SpaceEarth, the ride...tho I do like looking at it from the outside!!!! and Horizons kinda bored me. At the same time, the World of Imagination, starting with jumping waters, Figment, and the upstairs funstuff...kept us, as a family, amazed for hours at a time. The new Imagination was worse than disappointing.
I LOVED Wonders of Life, especially Cranium Commando and the Making of Me...but it sounds like most of you didn't care for it.
I love World of Energy and heard that people complained it was too 'eduacational' so they dumbed it down with Ellen...tho I still enjoy the ride and Ellen IS funny..so I'm ok with it. (But then, what is WRONG with being educational?). I like test track ok, and just rode Mission once...glad they told us to keep our eyes open cause the first part really did make me want to close my eyes...I didn't even go to the World Showcase and didn't miss it. I think the Living Seas is great for people who can't get to an Aquarium easily. I think it is well done, so I wonder what the objection is to that...I do know that I sneak in the 'exit' door to escape the movie at the beginning.
I LOVE roller coasters, don't much like round and round anymore, but think a poster above hit the nail on the head when she said:
It is when they replace something with CHEAP and UNimaginative that bothers her. And that seemed to be the case, IMHO, with Figment, the changes to Fantasmic (the day glo crap), etc.
Also, do you think Disney is so afraid of getting sued, of being libled for racism against some group that they take out the very stuff that made for its charm and replace it with boring crap that certainly offends no one????? sort of reminds me of a Vonnegut story.
I remember that when I first became a stockholder in Disney that I wrote letters after every visit. I was particularly incensed when I first felt the nickel and diming that Eisner brought in the 80's...when the price of strollers and balloons and food went up drastically. We could always afford Disney, but there are too many families that struggle just to get there and buy an admission ticket...Once inside, I felt that the prices for a balloon should be minimal, ya know?
I agree that Mexico needs an update, tho the boat ride concept is a good one and the Norway ride could be a little more thrilling...I haven't bothered to ride it in years. The countries used to be quite interesting because of all of the performances. And it didn't cost Disney cause the countries paid for all of it. But now there is just so much Mickey stuff selling in the shops that I don't think there is much of a draw.
Well, I've complained enough. I wish everyone could experience Disney and I'm sad when it gets priced out of the market. Though the price of admission is 10 times higher than when I started going, I still feel it is the best priced PARK of any other...and those others charge the same price!
I am fortunate that I can afford to stay onsite, but for those on a budget, there are still plenty of affordable motels in Kissimmee.
I hate it when they reduce hours, but the fast pass idea was a great timesaver. And I hated it most when they cut out fireworks over the castle during the week, but now the fireworks display is 200% better and every night.
Let's keep the pressure on Disney to EXCEL. Let's demand CREATIVITY and good customer service. Those things really aren't a matter of MONEY.
I believe in magic!
I LOVED Wonders of Life, especially Cranium Commando and the Making of Me...but it sounds like most of you didn't care for it.
I love World of Energy and heard that people complained it was too 'eduacational' so they dumbed it down with Ellen...tho I still enjoy the ride and Ellen IS funny..so I'm ok with it. (But then, what is WRONG with being educational?). I like test track ok, and just rode Mission once...glad they told us to keep our eyes open cause the first part really did make me want to close my eyes...I didn't even go to the World Showcase and didn't miss it. I think the Living Seas is great for people who can't get to an Aquarium easily. I think it is well done, so I wonder what the objection is to that...I do know that I sneak in the 'exit' door to escape the movie at the beginning.
I LOVE roller coasters, don't much like round and round anymore, but think a poster above hit the nail on the head when she said:
It is when they replace something with CHEAP and UNimaginative that bothers her. And that seemed to be the case, IMHO, with Figment, the changes to Fantasmic (the day glo crap), etc.
Also, do you think Disney is so afraid of getting sued, of being libled for racism against some group that they take out the very stuff that made for its charm and replace it with boring crap that certainly offends no one????? sort of reminds me of a Vonnegut story.
I remember that when I first became a stockholder in Disney that I wrote letters after every visit. I was particularly incensed when I first felt the nickel and diming that Eisner brought in the 80's...when the price of strollers and balloons and food went up drastically. We could always afford Disney, but there are too many families that struggle just to get there and buy an admission ticket...Once inside, I felt that the prices for a balloon should be minimal, ya know?
I agree that Mexico needs an update, tho the boat ride concept is a good one and the Norway ride could be a little more thrilling...I haven't bothered to ride it in years. The countries used to be quite interesting because of all of the performances. And it didn't cost Disney cause the countries paid for all of it. But now there is just so much Mickey stuff selling in the shops that I don't think there is much of a draw.
Well, I've complained enough. I wish everyone could experience Disney and I'm sad when it gets priced out of the market. Though the price of admission is 10 times higher than when I started going, I still feel it is the best priced PARK of any other...and those others charge the same price!
I am fortunate that I can afford to stay onsite, but for those on a budget, there are still plenty of affordable motels in Kissimmee.
I hate it when they reduce hours, but the fast pass idea was a great timesaver. And I hated it most when they cut out fireworks over the castle during the week, but now the fireworks display is 200% better and every night.
Let's keep the pressure on Disney to EXCEL. Let's demand CREATIVITY and good customer service. Those things really aren't a matter of MONEY.
I believe in magic!
I couldn't agree more! World of Motion and Horizons were my two favorite rides in all of WDW..and I also loved the Figment ride..and so whenever I visit EPCOT, there is a gaping hole in the experience..It's just not the same..I always thought that the Land and Living Seas pavillions were mediocre, so I wouldn't have minded if they replaced those two with Mission Space and Test Track. But no. It had to be my luck that Disney kept the mediocre ones and replaced the great ones..
So what's going on here? Is is a matter of "taste", or simply economics, or a bit of both..My gut instinct believes that it is a matter of taste more than economics(but I could be wrong). Those 3 rides were of the "old style", Disney classics, a little bit corny and old fashioned..They still reeked of the 60's, Walt influenced..of Chicago and New York World Fairs.I heard that one of the 9 old men, Ward Kimball, was behind the design of "World of Motion"..So these 3 rides were odes to the past as well as to the future..and that, more than anything else, doomed them to extinction..I can only imagine Michael Eisner sitting through those rides in 1984, and thinking they were already passe...He would take the company in a new direction, update it for the 21st century, and would have to appeal to the new generation of kids coming along..He would keep an eyes on the competition (Universal) and try keep up..The kids don't want old fashioned Disney corn. They want hip new thrill rides..So there you have it.
My heart was broken when they were replaced, but I am not the demographic Eisner cares about anymore..I do believe that the heart and soul of the Disney experience has been lost through the demolition of classics such as these. I believe they could have been updated..They inspired my imagination and were the main reasons I came back to WDW every couple of years..But there's nothing I can do about it...And it's nice to know that there are other people out there who feel the same way I do..
So what's going on here? Is is a matter of "taste", or simply economics, or a bit of both..My gut instinct believes that it is a matter of taste more than economics(but I could be wrong). Those 3 rides were of the "old style", Disney classics, a little bit corny and old fashioned..They still reeked of the 60's, Walt influenced..of Chicago and New York World Fairs.I heard that one of the 9 old men, Ward Kimball, was behind the design of "World of Motion"..So these 3 rides were odes to the past as well as to the future..and that, more than anything else, doomed them to extinction..I can only imagine Michael Eisner sitting through those rides in 1984, and thinking they were already passe...He would take the company in a new direction, update it for the 21st century, and would have to appeal to the new generation of kids coming along..He would keep an eyes on the competition (Universal) and try keep up..The kids don't want old fashioned Disney corn. They want hip new thrill rides..So there you have it.
My heart was broken when they were replaced, but I am not the demographic Eisner cares about anymore..I do believe that the heart and soul of the Disney experience has been lost through the demolition of classics such as these. I believe they could have been updated..They inspired my imagination and were the main reasons I came back to WDW every couple of years..But there's nothing I can do about it...And it's nice to know that there are other people out there who feel the same way I do..
Planogirl
I feel the nerd in me stirring
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2000
- Messages
- 49,742
ITA. They COULD have been updated! But the powers that be wanted to go into another direction.
Don't get me wrong. I like Test Track but I don't see magic there and wouldn't travel across the country for a ride such as this. I'll reserve judgment on Mission Space but I don't feel enthusiastic about it. I'm also a bit worried about the proposed replaced for Spaceship Earth but to be fair, I won't criticize YET.
But we all have different tastes of course. I just wish that those of us who enjoy the classic style could have our tastes satisfied too.
rocketriter
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2003
- Messages
- 2,316
While the constant updating has removed some nice areas from the front part of Epcot, I do wish that Disney would update and expand the World Showcase. So many of the exhibits are just dressed-up storefronts. And the Mexico boat-ride is plain silly. On the rare times when my family rides it, we stare at the dioramas of happy dancing Aztecs and mutter, "Human sacri-WHAT?"
I am going to post a little comment about whats attractive to me about EPCOT, nothing much really as the first time I ever saw it was two years ago, it wasn't attractive then as being terribly outdated, now I have been in Orlando for 25 days now and will be leaving this saturday and I have yet to visit any Disney theme parks though I have been to Blizzard Beach and Disney Quest. Why just them? Because there was little change from the last time I was there, sure we have M:S and Philharmagic but neither one drew my attention. And it only took just a few comments of the negative sort about M:S to make me investigate if its worth it and based on reports from long ago before the soft opening to current reviews it made me decide to not go back just to try it myself. My vacation was everywhere else BUT Disney, and I had a good vacation, better than my last visit two years ago.
Will I regret not riding M:S? maybe, but thats MY choice.
I will wait until after Everest opens up plus Moteurs Stunts and Extra-Stitch
teeth: ) and anything else, then I will return.
I'm going to Hawaii next winter for my month long vacation, cya later Disney! (P.S. Get a new CEO too....)
Will I regret not riding M:S? maybe, but thats MY choice.
I will wait until after Everest opens up plus Moteurs Stunts and Extra-Stitch
teeth: ) and anything else, then I will return.I'm going to Hawaii next winter for my month long vacation, cya later Disney! (P.S. Get a new CEO too....)
old lost boy
Yes, I am a pirate, 200 years too late
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2003
- Messages
- 194
Maybe I'm missing something. It seems that a lot of folks feel the choice is keeping the same rides or thrill rides. New rides don't have to be thrill rides, although this seems to be Disney's direction. It seems to me the good people at Disney have statistics with each rides useage. When attendance declines change the ride. But the ride doesn't need to scare the stuff out of me nor does it need to be tied to the latest Disney movie. And please, when you close something open something. The old 20,000 Leagues space makes me mad every time I see it. Sorry for ranting.
King Triton
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2000
- Messages
- 580
Yes, you do have two groups of people...those who love thrill rides and those who love those magical dark rides. What made Disney so unique was the charm and imagination of the disney dark rides. Why couldn't Disney just update Horizons and World of Motion....and then still build Mission Space in a different spot?
Epcot is not the same. Removing those great rides was a big mistake. I don't want to see Disney parks turn into a no imagination Six Flags park (concrete and beams). Disney needs to stick to what makes Disney unique - something for all ages. Little children and the elderly will not ride mission space or test track. Everyone enjoyed Horizons and World of Motion. Hey, that's why Walt built Disneyland - a place where every member of the family can have fun together. If Walt were alive today, I believe we would have more animatronic dark rides.
The problem is Disney's top management is losing the magical touch. They lost their imagination. No wonder Roy Disney is pissed. I am too!
Epcot is not the same. Removing those great rides was a big mistake. I don't want to see Disney parks turn into a no imagination Six Flags park (concrete and beams). Disney needs to stick to what makes Disney unique - something for all ages. Little children and the elderly will not ride mission space or test track. Everyone enjoyed Horizons and World of Motion. Hey, that's why Walt built Disneyland - a place where every member of the family can have fun together. If Walt were alive today, I believe we would have more animatronic dark rides.
The problem is Disney's top management is losing the magical touch. They lost their imagination. No wonder Roy Disney is pissed. I am too!
SnackyStacky
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 29, 2002
- Messages
- 6,799
HOLD on a minute.....
I thought that the Spaceship Earth change had been completely scrapped because the ride mechanisms inside were an integral part of the structure, and it would be too costly to try and change it. Did I miss a memo? Is that no more?
I thought that the Spaceship Earth change had been completely scrapped because the ride mechanisms inside were an integral part of the structure, and it would be too costly to try and change it. Did I miss a memo? Is that no more?
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