OKW/BWV 2003-2002 Dues Comparison

[lehrsj]

I got the dues from OKW and BWV from this board. Here is a comparison between the resorts for 2003 and 2002.

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.............................. 2003 ..... 2002 .. Change .. Pct Change
Administrative
............... OKW ... 0.3376 ... 0.3432 .. -0.0056 .... -1.63%
............... BWV ... 0.5404 ... 0.4894 ... 0.0510 ..... 10.42%

Annual Audit
............... OKW ... 0.0013 ... 0.0013 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%
............... BWV ... 0.0021 ... 0.0021 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%

DVC Reservations
............... OKW ... 0.0053 ... 0.0053 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%
............... BWV ... 0.0054 ... 0.0054 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%

Fees (Division)
............... OKW ... 0.0071 ... 0.0071 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%
............... BWV ... 0.0080 ... 0.0080 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%

Housekeeping
............... OKW ... 0.6567 ... 0.6104 ... 0.0463 ..... 7.59%
............... BWV ... 0.7445 ... 0.6167 ... 0.1278 .... 20.72%

Income Taxes
............... OKW ... 0.0401 ... 0.0608 .. -0.0207 .. -34.05%
............... BWV ... 0.0563 ... 0.0892 .. -0.0329 .. -36.88%

Insurance
............... OKW ... 0.1089 ... 0.0443 ... 0.0646 ... 145.82%
............... BWV ... 0.0997 ... 0.0609 ... 0.0388 .... 63.71%

Legal
............... OKW ... 0.0007 ... 0.0007 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%
............... BWV ... 0.0011 ... 0.0011 ... 0.0000 ..... 0.00%

Maintenance
............... OKW ... 0.3486 ... 0.3023 ... 0.0463 .... 15.32%
............... BWV ... 0.5837 ... 0.5529 ... 0.0308 ..... 5.57%

Management
............... OKW ... 0.2528 ... 0.2258 ... 0.0270 .... 11.96%
............... BWV ... 0.3374 ... 0.3191 ... 0.0183 ..... 5.73%

Member Activities
............... OKW ... 0.0835 ... 0.0843 .. -0.0008 .... -0.95%
............... BWV ... 0.1562 ... 0.1547 ... 0.0015 ..... 0.97%

Sales Tax on Sup Fac
............... OKW
............... BWV ... 0.0365 ... 0.0333 ... 0.0032 ..... 9.61%

Security
............... OKW ... 0.0549 ... 0.0391 ... 0.0158 .... 40.41%
............... BWV ... 0.0444 ... 0.0375 ... 0.0069 .... 18.40%

Transportation
............... OKW ... 0.3584 ... 0.3484 ... 0.0100 ..... 2.87%
............... BWV ... 0.1832 ... 0.1848 .. -0.0016 .... -0.87%

Utilities
............... OKW ... 0.1730 ... 0.1252 ... 0.0478 .... 38.18%
............... BWV ... 0.1791 ... 0.1878 .. -0.0087 .... -4.63%

Capital Reserve
............... OKW ... 0.3973 ... 0.3884 ... 0.0089 ..... 2.29%
............... BWV ... 0.4810 ... 0.5760 .. -0.0950 ... -16.49%

Property Taxes
............... OKW ... 0.7764 ... 0.7608 ... 0.0156 ..... 2.05%
............... BWV ... 0.7760 ... 0.7603 ... 0.0157 ..... 2.06%

 

[PKS44]

I hope somebody can get an explanation from the board why there is such a discrepency in the rise in Administrative budget between the two resorts....up 10% vs. down 1.6%- that stands out like a sore thumb...as does the Insurance differences up 145% vs. up 63%...I can understand insurance being vastly different on such different properties...but Administering the two programs should be similar enough to at least be moving in the same direction.

Paul

 

[lehrsj]

Things I was wondering about were:

Housekeeping - up 7.59% at OKW compared to 20.72% at BWV.

Insurance - up 145.82% at OKW compared to 63.71% at BWV.

Security - up 40.41% at OKW compared to 18.40% at BWV.

Utilities - up 38.18% at OKW, down -4.63% at BWV.

How can electric, water, cable go up 38% at OKW and down at BWV?

 

[DeeP]

How can electric, water, cable go up 38% at OKW and down at BWV?

And especially since Disney has it's own power company, water co, cable service, recycling plant, etc.

 

[RobDoc]

Instead of focusing on the percentage changes (that only represents change from last year), perhaps it's more meaningful to look at the raw per point costs for each category and see if that looks reasonable.

Some of the discrepancies may come from contractual differences in the way certain expenses have been set up ( a multi year maintenence or insurance deal which expires this year, more costly housekeeping with interior hallways at BWV, more landscape maintenance at OKW, etc.).

The percentages only reflect a variance at that resort compared to the prior year and don't provide the full picture of the expense itself.

 

[ilovebwv]

The percentages only reflect a variance at that resort compared to the prior year and don't provide the full picture of the expense itself

They provide a full enough picture to us-- we are paying an increase in dues of almost double at OKW compared to what the increase in dues is for our other DVC contracts. It is insane! I could understand such an increase at the other DVC properties that offer many more services to their guests, but at OKW????? It is insane!

 

[RobDoc]

Originally posted by ilovebwv
They provide a full enough picture to us-- we are paying an increase in dues of almost double at OKW compared to what the increase in dues is for our other DVC contracts. It is insane! I could understand such an increase at the other DVC properties that offer many more services to their guests, but at OKW????? It is insane!

I'm, not sure what information you are looking at to make this statement. Here is the increase per point at each of the DVC resorts.

BWV- 0.18
HH - 0.20
BCV- 0.20
VB - 0.20
VWL- 0.25
OKW- 0.27


BWV has the lowest increase and OKW the highest, but it is a total of .09 per point- hardly double. In the past BWV has increased some years when OKW has gone down. As I mentioned in my post above- rather than look at percentage increases- look at the actual increases (or decresases). As mentioned, BWV is having their exterior maintence redone at no cost to the members- unlike any of the other DVC resorts. That is a major component of the changes.

Here are the actual maintenance fees for 2003

On order from lowest to highest, here are the actual maintenance fees for 2003:

OKW- $3.49
HH - $3.69
BCV - $3.97
VWL- $4.05
BWV- $4.10
VB - $4.37

 

[DebbieB]

Originally posted by ilovebwv
They provide a full enough picture to us-- we are paying an increase in dues of almost double at OKW compared to what the increase in dues is for our other DVC contracts. It is insane! I could understand such an increase at the other DVC properties that offer many more services to their guests, but at OKW????? It is insane!

But look at the "big picture" - BWV is .61 per point higher than OKW ($4.10 vs $3.49). That's a big difference! 17% more, the points per night are higher and the rooms smaller (now I sound like Rich! )! But I'm willing to pay more for the "prime location".

I could never understand why BWV is more than VWL or BCV, they both have the same type of setup, although in 2003 they are getting closer.

 

[EROS]

Originally posted by DebbieB
But look at the "big picture" - BWV is .61 per point higher than OKW ($4.10 vs $3.49

Hey, BWV is worth it. I'd happily pay 27% more than OKW .....

 

[DeeP]

I could never understand why BWV is more than VWL or BCV, they both have the same type of setup, although in 2003 they are getting closer.

I agree 100% espceially with BCV and BWV, they are the 2 DVC resorts in the most desirable locations, I think the dues at both should be the same, with VWL dues slightly lower and OKW dues the lowest. The prices of all Disney resorts has always been based not only on amenitites but on location and the DVC resorts are the same.

 

[RobDoc]

I think the dues at both should be the same, with VWL dues slightly lower and OKW dues the lowest.

Dues are not based on anything besides the actual expenses of operating the resort. Regardless how we personally perceive the "value" of a resort, the dues should still be based on the actual costs to run the place.

With some of the more recent DVC resorts (VWL and BCV) there may have been some design changes which allow for lower costs in some areas. Housekeeping and utility costs would be two areas which might benefit from design changes different from BWV.

Housekeeping and utility costs at resorts with interior hallways should be different than OKW and landscaping expenses should be higher at OKW. I'm sure there are other examples of differences like this which would explain the variance in dues structure.

 

[Granny]

Doc...just wanted to thank you for posting all the dues for 2003 in one spot. I hadn't seen them yet.

For whatever reason, my "homes" of BWV and VWL have relatively high dues. I was hoping that VWL would have some of those "flat" years in dues like OKW enjoyed, but it appears that those days may be behind us.

As long as the dues go directly back into the resorts, which they do, I am okay with them. But a direct cost "pass through" method to DVC owners gives DVD no particular incentive to hold costs down. Also, I hate to say, there is the possibility at places like BWV, VWL and BCV that some of the expenses from the main resort being shared may find their way over to the DVC books. That would increase the profit of the regular resort, and members would be paying the upcharges, not Disney.

It just seems difficult to monitor how some expenses are split up between say, WL and VWL. For instance, since VWL guests can use the main pool at WL, is part of that upkeep now being assigned to VWL??

Granny

 

[RobDoc]

It just seems difficult to monitor how some expenses are split up between say, WL and VWL. For instance, since VWL guests can use the main pool at WL, is part of that upkeep now being assigned to VWL??

That would be a good question for the VWL annual meeting.

In the case of the pool, except for towels, there is no more cost involved for extra guests. They don't provide extra lifeguards, the chemicals are the same and the water is already in the pool.

The front desk CM's are also shared, but it won't necessarily require extra CM's there either.

Shared costs would be things like housekeeping and utility expenses for common areas of the resort (lobby, driveways, parking lots). Those should be a minimal extra expense which could be equitably computed, I would think.

 

[lehrsj]

Originally posted by Granny
... But a direct cost "pass through" method to DVC owners gives DVD no particular incentive to hold costs down. Also, I hate to say, there is the possibility at places like BWV, VWL and BCV that some of the expenses from the main resort being shared may find their way over to the DVC books. That would increase the profit of the regular resort, and members would be paying the upcharges, not Disney.

It just seems difficult to monitor how some expenses are split up between say, WL and VWL. For instance, since VWL guests can use the main pool at WL, is part of that upkeep now being assigned to VWL??

Granny

I fully agree. I think we need to question the dues and we should get an explanation from DVD as to the increases. It just makes business sense and hopefully gives DVD the 'incentive' to hold costs down.

I also wonder about the 'shared' costs. I'm sure there are different ways to calculate them.

We need to get more info in the dues statement explaining the reasons for the increases from the previous year. Obviously the reasons were there when the dues are determined so put them in the statement.

 

[Wes]

I'm going to bump this thread, since it has some valuable numbers that I knew were out there but had to search pretty hard to find, since the thread went dormant at the end of last month.

 

[drusba]

As to the rhetorical questions above relating to whether your dues at BWV, VWL, and BCV, include expenses for the resort as a whole, such as for the main pool, transportation, maintenance, security, front desk, valet etc., the answer is that your dues do include a share of those costs. Shares are pursuant to agreements that depend on allocating based mainly on number of rooms and total potential occupancy of the different portions of the resort. Does that increase the potential profit to Disney for its portion of the resort? Most likely did so at BC and WL once BCV and VWL opened (at BW, the arrangement has existed from the beginning so you cannot really look at it as Disney getting an increase in profit by the addition of a DVC resort). Of course, the DVC members are getting the use of all the main amenities of the resort (such as the main pool) without having to pay full cost for it.

As to the differences in costs at the two resorts, it is really difficult to try to compare costs at BWV to OKW as the two are so different in the kinds of expenses they have. For example, at BWV, your administrative costs include portions of the costs for front desk, valet (many thought that DVC not having to pay the $6 fee for valet service is a perk-- reality is members are already paying for the service through dues and charging them the $6 would be double charging), room service. Nevertheless, some of the differences in increases are easily explained. Utilities: BWV is lower simply because during most of 2003 at any given time, 25% to 35% of the rooms are going to be out of service for renovations and thus not using most utilities. Security and insurance: all had a huge increase in security; BWV's percentage is lower because that is one place where the sharing of costs with BWI helps keep its total percentage increase down while at OKW practically all of it is paid by the members.

 

[Granny]

Originally posted by drusba
As to the rhetorical questions above relating to whether your dues at BWV, VWL, and BCV, include expenses for the resort as a whole, such as for the main pool, transportation, maintenance, security, front desk, valet etc., the answer is that your dues do include a share of those costs. Shares are pursuant to agreements that depend on allocating based mainly on number of rooms and total potential occupancy of the different portions of the resort. Does that increase the potential profit to Disney for its portion of the resort? Most likely did so at BC and WL once BCV and VWL opened (at BW, the arrangement has existed from the beginning so you cannot really look at it as Disney getting an increase in profit by the addition of a DVC resort). Of course, the DVC members are getting the use of all the main amenities of the resort (such as the main pool) without having to pay full cost for it.

Just to be clear, I was mostly just wondering out loud (rhetorical question is a good way of putting it). It does make DVC as an add-on to existing resorts a pretty attractive proposition to Disney.

And I'm not complaining at all. If part of my VWL dues go to the WL main pool, front desk, bell services, etc....well, I think that's fine. As long as Disney doesn't just pocket the money and actually adds people or other enhancements to these areas. After all, the total occupancy of WL with the addition of VWL has to be an increase...which would suggest some increased cost in the WL services as mentioned above.

I doubt anyone could ever really decipher the numbers to find out what costs are being borne by DVC members for the regular resorts.

As long as the dues increases remain modest, no big deal here. And as long as DVC is still trying to sell new units....they don't want to have a history of big dues jumps at existing DVC resorts (wouldn't want to scare away prospective buyers) so that should help as well.

Granny