OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[Pea-n-Me]

I take a simplified approach to this.

In my world, I think people should be nice to eachother. And respectful. (Unless given a good reason not to be.)

Yet, we're not, always. And it comes from every angle imaginable.

This is the society we live in today.

So I find it hypocritical when people talk about this type of thing, judging people who lived in another time, when they themselves probably aren't perfect even today, either - despite the lip service.

Just look around.

People say, "Yeah, think about it". Well, think about that.

Are YOU perfect every day in your interactions with others? In how you talk to them or about them? How you treat them? Whether you care about them? Try to make their day a little bit brighter or better?

If you are - and I'd be rather surprised if most people are - then, good for you.

If you aren't, then you're no better than some of these people being criticized.

 

[Lehuaann]

Isn't everyone affected by racism? And yes, I am offended. I'm offended that people still argue that racism is ok because it was ok in the past. It is not. White, black, Asian, Hispanic. It's not ok for anyone.

And not once in my post did I say how anyone should feel, one way or the other. I ASKED how you would feel if you were a black baseball player. I didn't STATE how you should feel. Just consider the other side, for one moment, that's all any of us should do.

Ok, please don’t shout words at me. As a minority person, I don’t understand some of your statements.

How is everyone affected by racism? Are racists affected by racism? Are people with no firsthand racism experience affected by racism?

While I appreciate people being lovingly supportive and aware, I don’t understand the overcompensating rage, as if minorities need help being offended.

I agreed with most of your original post. However, again, using your own words, why say, as a white, you don’t get a say in what any minority person *feels* about a particular subject, then go on to ask how we would feel if we were a black baseball player hearing a 1931 song about “blackies.”

If you don’t get a say in how they feel, then why ask that question?

Frankly I'm surprised more here aren't just as offended. Do you watch the news? Young black men being shot by the cops for no good reason. Voting districts being realigned so that their votes have no weight. Having their churches burned. Being told they won't be employed at certain businesses if they don't change their hair. Their natural hair! And then there's having the cops called on them for the crimes of having a barbecue, napping in their college dorm lounge, staying in a nice hotel, living in a nice apartment building, driving a nice car and on and on. And it was WORSE back then. How can anyone not be terribly offended?

Of course racism is upsetting and disappointing - past and present. It’s horrible to have people treat you like a second rate citizen because of race. It’s horrible to see family members treated like absolute crap. It makes me very upset, and I will continue to get very upset. But I do whatever I can to support change, which most of the time means calling it out right then and there. I just don’t believe punishing/shaming deceased individuals/family or erasing the past is the answer. I know for sure being offended doesn’t help.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

You're not alone. Many people under 30 never heard of her. Of if they did, they only know that she was a singer their grandparents or great-grandparents listened to.

Even the Flyers' own research determined that many of their younger fans only know of Kate Smith because of her history with the team and feel no real connection to it.

Well, I’m pushing 40 but if you think I can still pass for 30, I’ll take it!

 

[Julie's Haircut]

Even if she never recorded such songs way back then, the Flyers should have dumped her rendition of God Bless America at least 15 years ago. She had long ceased being the good luck charm she was in the 1970's. The Flyers lost many of the important games where the song was played. Her last two live appearances at games before her death also resulted in losses.

Too many Flyers fans are stuck in the past. Except for maybe three seasons, the team has been mediocre at best during this century. Desperately clinging to past glories isn't productive.

As for the removing her statue, yeah, that's overkill.

15 years ago??? I think the Flyers should have dropped Kate Smith in 1976 when they were swept in the Finals by Montreal. They lost both home games when she sang her song, once recorded, once live in person. My 16 year old self wanted to shoot her because her magic was gone. It couldn't have been because Montreal was a better team. Nope, she became a jinx.

They probably should have retired her song soon after she died in 1986. Just have one last hurrah, then move on. Playing the song certainly hasn't helped them much these past 43 years.

 

[luvsJack]

My question is where do you draw the line? Welp...that’s just how it was under the 3rd Reich. Things were different then.


Some things are just wrong & always have been no matter how socially acceptable at the time. My grandparents grew up in the Jim Crow south & knew how wrong it was then & didn’t participate or condone it then. My father was one of the few kids who played with the first kid who was “integrated” into his school when he was in elementary. He said he got picked on for it then by other kids & remembered at even a young age understanding how wrong it was. I knew a lady around my father’s age who was one of the first to be integrated into the same school & her story was absolutely heartbreaking to hear. She was a just little girl. So, I’m supposed to believe ppl didn’t know that kind of stuff was wrong??

Imo, ppl had to have known it was wrong & chose to ignore it. And making excuses for ppl’s behavior is just rationalizing it b/c it’s hard to accept that ppl we admire did things they should have known weren’t right.

My siblings and I are too young to have been in school during the beginning of integration. My sister was 2. So Mom was well out of school but they watched the news about so much of what went on. She said that when they talked to people back home about it, so much of the way people acted was not out of hate but out of fear. Now, that fear came from ignorance, this is true. But some people were actually afraid of this change to their lives. Still wrong but not the same as hate. I do not mean everyone. There was hate from some, probably many but there was fear too.

Stating that things were different then, that norms were different. That people acted different and thought different is not excusing anything. It’s just stating facts.

 

[LSUmiss]

My siblings and I are too young to have been in school during the beginning of integration. My sister was 2. So Mom was well out of school but they watched the news about so much of what went on. She said that when they talked to people back home about it, so much of the way people acted was not out of hate but out of fear. Now, that fear came from ignorance, this is true. But some people were actually afraid of this change to their lives. Still wrong but not the same as hate. I do not mean everyone. There was hate from some, probably many but there was fear too.

Stating that things were different then, that norms were different. That people acted different and thought different is not excusing anything. It’s just stating facts.

But it is an attempt to makes excuses when we say things like we can’t judge ppl by their actions back then. We absolutely can, IMO. An extreme example, but Nazi Germany was so powerful at the time also b/c of fear. But most ppl would not excuse the behavior of SS officers or Hitler b/c things were just different back then.

 

[luvsJack]

But it is an attempt to makes excuses when we say things like we can’t judge ppl by their actions back then. We absolutely can, IMO. An extreme example, but Nazi Germany was so powerful at the time also b/c of fear. But most ppl would not excuse the behavior of SS officers or Hitler b/c things were just different back then.

Hitler’s actions had nothing to do with fear. People were afraid of Germany and the Nazi’s but THEIR actions weren’t out of fear. Besides, they took thousands of innocent people to torture camps and gas chambers. And it had nothing to do with the way things were at the time. Not a comparison.

And no one said you can’t judge people by their actions back then. It has been said you cannot judge them by today’s standards. Two very different statements.

And again stating facts is not excusing anyone of anything. It’s jist being factual.

 

[LSUmiss]

Hitler’s actions had nothing to do with fear. People were afraid of Germany and the Nazi’s but THEIR actions weren’t out of fear. Besides, they took thousands of innocent people to torture camps and gas chambers. And it had nothing to do with the way things were at the time. Not a comparison.

And no one said you can’t judge people by their actions back then. It has been said you cannot judge them by today’s standards. Two very different statements.

And again stating facts is not excusing anyone of anything. It’s jist being factual.

Ok so to someone on the receiving end of the racism who is still alive, what do we say to them? It’s just a fact that things were different then b/c ppl were fearful & standards were different. Idk, IMO that adds insult to injury.

 

[kimblebee]

Ok, we’ve reached the Hitler part of the thread. Time to shut it down..

 

[kaytieeldr]

15 years ago??? I think the Flyers should have dropped Kate Smith in 1976 when they were swept in the Finals by Montreal. They lost both home games when she sang her song, once recorded, once live in person.

Maybe it's time to combine this thread with the one about being superstitious?

 

[kaytieeldr]

But most ppl would not excuse the behavior of SS officers or Hitler b/c things were just different back then.

Songs percieved as racist 80 years agter release did not kill millions of people in gas chambers.

 

[sam_gordon]

Ok, we’ve reached the Hitler part of the thread. Time to shut it down..

Agreed. I knew someone was going to try and associate this story with Hitler "What he did was OK at the time." But it wasn't. I don't think murder was ever acceptable.

 

[NotUrsula]

I think that "the line" largely lies with intent and the degree of harm arising from the behavior. Did the person truly believe the behavior was harmless, and was anyone materially harmed by it at the time? (Not just offended, but physically or financially harmed as a direct result of that person's actions?) My own standard is that if there does not appear to have been malice aforethought or some kind of material harm done, then I think it's enough to just deplore the action, and not presume that the person's character was fundamentally flawed based on that one behavior. (Speaking of the long-dead, that is; living people should be explaining themselves and learning from mistakes.)

Paul Robeson actually recorded that song as well; a black man who was well known for (and often punished for) having progressive connections and opinions. He was also a black man who was blacklisted by Hollywood during the HUAC witch hunt. I'm pretty sure he didn't particularly want to record it, but I'm also pretty sure that he would have had to deal with losing yet more work if he had refused. So, was he racist, too? Or was his recording ironic enough to qualify as satire when Smith's wasn't?

Like I said, I think the song is paternalistic claptrap, but at the time it was sold as being a tribute to the resilience of black people, with definite religious overtones that supposedly were meant to draw parallels to the nobility of the voluntary sufferings of Jesus. Pure hogwash, but that kind of rose-colored glasses schmaltz sold records during the Depression, so those who needed to make a living as musicians often recorded such stuff whether they liked it or not. Hungry musicians still record songs they don't like, and a fair amount of those still contain lyrics that could be perceived as racist or misogynistic. Personally, I prefer to just call that what it is, tasteless dreck.

 

[Klayfish]

15 years ago??? I think the Flyers should have dropped Kate Smith in 1976 when they were swept in the Finals by Montreal. They lost both home games when she sang her song, once recorded, once live in person. My 16 year old self wanted to shoot her because her magic was gone. It couldn't have been because Montreal was a better team. Nope, she became a jinx.

They probably should have retired her song soon after she died in 1986. Just have one last hurrah, then move on. Playing the song certainly hasn't helped them much these past 43 years.

Nope, nope, nope. I liked Kate Smiths' rendition and it gave me goose bumps every time it was played. Eric Lindros laying unconscious on the ice because he couldn't watch out for 200+ lb Scott Stevens in a crucial game 7 sinks the Flyers. Pelle Lindbergh making an uncharacteristically bad choice and getting himself killed sinks the Flyers. Ed Snider having a strangle hold on the team for decades sank them.

Back on topic, I still stand by what I initially felt. The Kate Smith rendition of the song had a special place in my heart. After having read the article, my mind hasn't changed one bit. If that makes me a bad person, so be it I guess. I don't know what her true feelings were, I'm not going to guess. She lived in a very different world than we did, one which I don't truly understand (only read in history books).

 

[kdonnel]

Racism was never morally acceptable.
Some people just made the CHOICE to ignore and/or deny it because it had no impact on them.

You are applying today’s moral code.

There are a lot of things found morally reprehensible today that were morally acceptable in their time.

Thankfully morals evolve over time.

 

[Mermaid02]

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

― George Orwell, 1984

 

[FlightlessDuck]

OK, I'll say it...

There is 100% no reason to play the national anthem at sporting events. Period.

Also, this article specifically said they were going to stop playing “God Bless America” , which is not the National Anthem.

 

[Klayfish]

OK, I'll say it...

There is 100% no reason to play the national anthem at sporting events. Period.

You know, that's an interesting point. I'm sort of neutral on that topic. I'm OK with doing it and probably wouldn't be opposed if they chose not to. I guess it's another one of those long standing tradition things. I do a fair amount of announcing for youth football and lacrosse. Sometimes I'll forget to play it before a game. Usually it's OK, but every once in a while I'll get someone up in the booth with me who goes nuts if it's 5 minutes before game time and I haven't played it.

ETA: Going on those sports lines, I'm a NASCAR fan. I'm stunned that they still do a prayer before every race starts. I'm very much an "atheist", and it doesn't offend me at all that they do the prayer...I'm not easily offended. However, in todays' world I'm just very surprised they get away with it.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Additional thoughts:

• I don't know who Kate Smith is. Even though I am a Philadelphia sports fan.
• Hockey is just soccer on ice but the ball is harder to see.
• "That's Why Darkies were Born" was one of her songs? Yeah, um... NOPE!

 

[Klayfish]

Additional thoughts:

• I don't know who Kate Smith is. Even though I am a Philadelphia sports fan.
• Hockey is just soccer on ice but the ball is harder to see.
• "That's Why Darkies were Born" was one of her songs? Yeah, um... NOPE!

There's no way you're a Philly sports fan and don't know who Kate Smith is. She's part of the Flyers history, like it or not.

Hockey and soccer have almost nothing in common. The closest sport to hockey is probably lacrosse. Comparing hockey to soccer...now that might offend me.