Obama's Speech

[yeartolate]

He would be treated well, and I do not go to a "white church", except for the color of the exterior of course. Its New England after all.

I am confused. I based my "white church" comment on your answer. So which is it?

Originally Posted by LohKee
How do you know this? Can you tell me that a minority can walk into an all white church in an all white town and be embraced by the congregation. I seriously think not!

ABSOLUTELY! My church is one such church.

 

[DawnCt1]

I am confused. I based my "white church" comment on your answer. So which is it?

The membership is predominantly white with perhaps 12% represented by African Americans. All are welcomed.

 

[DisneyDotty]

In the words of my father, I am an American. He taught me that nothing else matters.

Hey, you agree with Barack Obama!
(He said in an interview on "Nightline" last night that first and foremost, he's an American!)

 

[yeartolate]

The membership is predominantly white with perhaps 12% represented by African Americans. All are welcomed.

I am sorry, but I found your response very misleading. I stand corrected.

 

[tedhowe]

People keep talking about Obama spending 20 years in the pews and how that is a reason to hold him accountable.

I'd like to go beyond that surface level for a moment.

I'm interested in a timeline of when these inflammatory sermons/speeches were actually given. I'm not trying to excuse or explain away Rev. Wright's statements, but I am trying to put it in a perspective that people can understand as to why Obama might not have "walked out the door" when he heard of (or heard) the statements of Rev. Wright.

Bear with me... please keep an open mind.

I've tried searching for a timeline of when these hate filled speeches of Wright's occurred. I haven't found anything comprehensive yet, but the earliest reference I can find so far is the sermon right after 9/11.

Most of the other statements that are offensive seem to be from even more recent sermons.


Obama met Wright in 1988. He and Michelle were married by Wright in 1992. Their first daughter was born - and presumably baptised by Wright in 1999. Their second daughter was born - and presumably baptised by Wright in 2001 - quite possibly before 9/11 and the sermon by Wright the following sunday.

So the important events that the critics like to call out - being married by him, baptizing the daughters - quite possibly all happened before the truly radical statements from Pator Wright started appearing. By the time the 9/11 sermon occurred, Obama had known Wright for 13 years.


My point is this: if Obama was as close to Wright as it appears, isn't it likely that Wright is more than just his pastor? When a close friend says things that are hateful or vicious, do you immediately abandon that friend?

If so, then I would not value your friendship.

If there are references to extreme, hateful speech from Pastor Wright prior to 2001, please help me find them. It will affect my opinion of Senator Obama.

If not, then please consider that the relationship (for many) between a pastor and congregant is not as simple as your local grocer. It might be easy to abandon your grocery store because the manager or owner is a racist and you only see them once in a while when you are getting groceries.

But if the pastor of your church is a close personal friend, then it's not easy to hit the road when radical, hateful things come out of his mouth.

Many critics talk about timelines - Obama was concerned enough that he knew about Wright's statements and took him off the program of the campaign kickoff event, Obama was or wasn't there for a given sermon, etc.

I want to know about the timeline from 1988 on, not the last 18 months.

If you want to talk about character, then tell me what positive character trait is indicated by walking out "after one sermon of hate" on a man you have known, learned from, been counseled by and become friends with for 13 years, or even 5 years, or even 2 years. To me, that is being a fair-weather friend, and being politically motivated.

The true test of character is to be open to the positive aspects of someone who is flawed (as we ALL are) and to try to focus on the good points.

Ted

I know it's not good netiquette to quote yourself, but apparently the bickering has gotten the better of this thread.

I'll try this once to see if I can get an answer to my substantive questions.

I have not been an Obama loyalist. I would prefer him over most of the Republicans that were running - unfortunately for Obama, the one Republican that I would seriously consider voting for in November has won their nomination so I am seriously considering where my vote will be cast.

This issue does give me pause and I am honestly looking for sincere input from others.

So I'll ask again.

1. Does anyone have any references as to when the extreme, offensive sermons from Rev. Wright started? Were they scattered throughout the (at least) last 20 years? I'm not looking for opinions on this, but actual references to when these offensive sermons were delivered.

2. If these sermons started after Obama had an established relationship with Rev. Wright, do critics of Obama truly believe that "one hateful sermon and I'd be out of there" if that sermon came from a close friend and confidant? If so, how is that a positive character trait in someone running for president. Doesn't loyalty and compassion for another person, even with their flaws, count for something?

Thanks,

Ted

 

[DawnCt1]

I know it's not good netiquette to quote yourself, but apparently the bickering has gotten the better of this thread.

I'll try this once to see if I can get an answer to my substantive questions.

I have not been an Obama loyalist. I would prefer him over most of the Republicans that were running - unfortunately for Obama, the one Republican that I would seriously consider voting for in November has won their nomination so I am seriously considering where my vote will be cast.

This issue does give me pause and I am honestly looking for sincere input from others.

So I'll ask again.

1. Does anyone have any references as to when the extreme, offensive sermons from Rev. Wright started? Were they scattered throughout the (at least) last 20 years? I'm not looking for opinions on this, but actual references to when these offensive sermons were delivered.

2. If these sermons started after Obama had an established relationship with Rev. Wright, do critics of Obama truly believe that "one hateful sermon and I'd be out of there" if that sermon came from a close friend and confidant? If so, how is that a positive character trait in someone running for president. Doesn't loyalty and compassion for another person, even with their flaws, count for something?

Thanks,

Ted

Does this help? Here a few quotes.

September 2001: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”

– September 2001: “We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.”

– September 2001: “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”

– April 2003: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America. No! No No! God damn America … for killing innocent people. God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans. God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”

– December 2007: “Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people. Hillary would never know that.”

– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a ******. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

– Jan. 13, 2008: “Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

– “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college. … Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.”

– “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.
And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this ****!”

 

[kribit]

Does this help? Here a few quotes.

September 2001: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”

– September 2001: “We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.”

– September 2001: “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”

– April 2003: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America. No! No No! God damn America … for killing innocent people. God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans. God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”

– December 2007: “Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people. Hillary would never know that.”

– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a ******. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

– Jan. 13, 2008: “Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

– “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college. … Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.”

– “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.
And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this ****!”

Thanks for posting those, but it's pretty disturbing especially the GdAmerica quote.

 

[luvmy3]

I thought I heard a clip of Wright call USA the USKKK or something to that effect. Can anyone confirm that?

 

[mom2my3kids]

Does this help? Here a few quotes.

September 2001: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”

– September 2001: “We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.”

– September 2001: “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”

– April 2003: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America. No! No No! God damn America … for killing innocent people. God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans. God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”

– December 2007: “Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people. Hillary would never know that.”

– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a ******. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

– Jan. 13, 2008: “Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

– “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college. … Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.”

– “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.
And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this ****!”

Sad that this PERSON is supposed to be a man of GOD!!!! I don't care what race he is, he is NO MAN OF GOD!!!

 

[DawnCt1]

I thought I heard a clip of Wright call USA the USKKK or something to that effect. Can anyone confirm that?

I have heard that one as well.

 

[Planogirl]

I guess he's slamming Bill Clinton because Obama is running against his wife. I recall Bill being pretty darn popular in spite of his "troubles".

 

[JARNJ3]

I only read the speech. I did not hear it delivered.

I thought it was a decent speech - but what I found missing was the "how" to make the change happen.........

I've got great work friends who are African American. A group of us goes out for dinner on a monthly basis - and let our "hair down." We talk about everything under the sun - our family, work gossip, and our differences. Its done in a loving respectful way.

Some one will say "why do black (they prefer that term over african american) people do this...." some one else will ask "why do white people do this...."

IMHO - this is what is missing in the race discussion over all - its like the media, some pols, religious leaders are all saying discrimination is over and we're all supposed to treat each other as equal. Well that is NOT happening. We all come from different experience, and have different histories. Some have been discriminated against - some have done the discriminating.......

My one friend belongs to a minority woman's organization. I tease her that she's so important because she belongs to "an organization." This is a group that I can not join. And that is ok. What needs to be there between the races is RESPECT. A mutual agreement that we are all EQUAL - but we can be different.....

One of these ladies was recently stopped DWB (driving while black). The officer gave her a ticket for some minor traffic infraction - and then asked her "what brought her to that neighborhood." It was a predominantly white upper middle class neighborhood. Would I have been asked that question? Probably not.

The moral of this long diatribe? There is still a lot of work needed with race relations. There ARE differences between the ethnic groups. This is not a homogenous country. Our government - though very well integrated (really only in the house) is not leading the way.

Obama's speech? A good first step - forced due to his pastor making some racist comments. I'd like to see his actual plans for uniting this country once he becomes president. I feel that before now - he was ignoring race.

Ignoring it is not the answer.......

 

[momto2girls]

2. If these sermons started after Obama had an established relationship with Rev. Wright, do critics of Obama truly believe that "one hateful sermon and I'd be out of there" if that sermon came from a close friend and confidant? If so, how is that a positive character trait in someone running for president. Doesn't loyalty and compassion for another person, even with their flaws, count for something?

Thanks,

Ted

I think that the thing that amazes me the most out of all of this is how naive Obama and his wife and apparently all of his advisors were. Obama knew what a hateful person his minister was. If, as many of the libs have said, he felt like Wright was more like family than just a pastor, I still feel like he could have handled it differently considering that he is running for the POTUS. He should have said, "Dude, I love you and I understand why you might have some extreme views, but you have to know that being a part of these discussions could hurt my political career. I think that I need to distance myself from you at least publicly (as a member of the church)."

But he didn't and we all have to decide why we think that is. Personally, I believe he didn't leave because he believes the message and it wasn't at all shocking or offensive to him. Obviously, others feel differently. I guess we'll just have to see what the public as a whole believes (if he gets the nomination). I know that I was talking to a few of my neighbors today. They are moderates that usually vote Democrat and voted for Obama in the primary. They now have changed their opinion and wish that they could go back and change their vote. Perhaps their opinion will change again before November, but based on their comments I think it is highly unlikely.

 

[chobie]

I guess he's slamming Bill Clinton because Obama is running against his wife. I recall Bill being pretty darn popular in spite of his "troubles".

Yep, 70 million dollars spent on Kenneth Starr's witch hunt, and America still loves Bill.

 

[DisneyDotty]

At the risk of seeming naive, unAmerican, unpatriotic--I'm going to throw this out there...

Am I the only one who isn't terribly disturbed by Rev. Wright's comments? (Heck, I even agree with some of them.)

Similar comments were made about the US after 9/11 by Revs. Robertson and Falwell--didn't bother me--I wasn't going to elect them to anything.

History shows that the American government has been responsible for some horrendous human rights offenses (atomic bomb, internment camps, slavery, testing drugs on minorities, forced lobotomies etc.) What's that saying--those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it?

I've heard similar strong language from Catholic priests in (my former) church regarding abortion/homosexuality. Really nothing unusual or shocking to have pastors make us feel uncomfortable, even offended by their sermons. Read the Bible. Jesus wasn't all honey and sugar.

Regardless, I'm not voting for Rev. Wright. It's America. He's allowed freedom of speech.

 

[chobie]

At the risk of seeming naive, unAmerican, unpatriotic--I'm going to throw this out there...

Am I the only one who isn't terribly disturbed by Rev. Wright's comments? (Heck, I even agree with some of them.)

Similar comments were made about the US after 9/11 by Revs. Robertson and Falwell--didn't bother me--I wasn't going to elect them to anything.

History shows that the American government has been responsible for some horrendous human rights offenses (atomic bomb, internment camps, slavery, testing drugs on minorities, forced lobotomies etc.) What's that saying--those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it?

I've heard similar strong language from Catholic priests in (my former) church regarding abortion/homosexuality. Really nothing unusual or shocking to have pastors make us feel uncomfortable, even offended by their sermons. Read the Bible. Jesus wasn't all honey and sugar.

Regardless, I'm not voting for Rev. Wright. It's America. He's allowed to freedom of speech.

No, I'm with you. I don't see him saying that blacks should rule over whites, oppress them, lynch them etc, so I don't see how these statements equate to the KKK by any stretch of the imagination.

What bothers me more is the willful blindness of so many that there is not still prejudice against darker skinned people in this country and that we as a nation do not need to engage in some serious dialogue about this subject.

 

[DisneyDotty]

What bothers me more is the willful blindness of so many that there is not still prejudice against darker skinned people in this country and that we as a nation do not need to engage in some serious dialogue about this subject.

As much as I've been cringing myself reading these boards, this dialog you speak of is long overdue and could be the one good thing that comes of all this!
People are so afraid, so afraid...Really, what do they think will happen when (almost said if--oops!) we finally elect an African American (or female--I'll take either!) as President of this great country?

 

[Planogirl]

No, I'm with you. I don't see him saying that blacks should rule over whites, oppress them, lynch them etc, so I don't see how these statements equate to the KKK by any stretch of the imagination.

What bothers me more is the willful blindness of so many that there is not still prejudice against darker skinned people in this country and that we as a nation do not need to engage in some serious dialogue about this subject.

I agree. I'm a bit more disturbed by his delivery than what he actually said. He doesn't mince words, that's for sure.

 

[EMom]

I believe in the possibility, but I've never known anyone who has attended one before. I've never had a Priest endorse a candidate, but I've certainly heard Priests address church teaching on social issues like abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, divorce and the war. Doesn't mean I agree with all of them, but I've heard them. I've never heard outright hatred in my church, but I have seen and heard many preachers teach hate for Muslims, gays, feminists and pretty much anyone who doesn't believe the same way they do. Those ministers hold revivals and rallies that draw thousands of people-are all those people supporters of every word those preachers say?

I just don't buy that. I think that adult worshippers are fully capable of understanding when a minister crosses the line, explaining to their children that the minister crossed the line and FORGIVING that minister for crossing the line. I believe adult worshippers can separate the teachings of the Church and when the Preacher is talking about the Christian life from social commentary-and they can explain that to their children.

The church we have attended for 10 years has never once gotten anywhere remotely close to any of the topics you're discussing. The most controversial thing the minister has said was that it would be wise to focus less on making money and acquiring things and spend more time with our familes. He's soooooo outrageous, that one!

Every week, he says a prayer for our political leaders....a generic prayer. I pay attention carefully because I'm a Democrat living in a 90% Republican town and if I started hearing "Republican" prayers, I'd be gone. But it has never happened. The closest we ever came was an elder who clearly had a bias and alluded to favoritism, but you would have had to have been paying very close attention to have noticed it. And he only did it once, because he was never given the chance to say the prayer again. I'm pretty sure the minister shut him down and told him we weren't going to play that game at this church. Every week, we say a prayer for some other church in town, that their ministry will thrive and that they will be able to help the community and do God's work. Only rarely are they of the same denomination as we are, so we spread it around.

This is the church we chose to attend just after we bolted from the church where the minister took a position on President Clinton's impeachment and sent a letter to all members and regular visitors like us regarding such. We were on the verge on joining, but nixed that idea after this very charismatic minister (who is so much a part of the church that he might as well BE the church...sound familiar?) pulled that stunt. The handwriting was on the wall that he was ready and willing to use his position as the minister to influence church members. No thanks. I let him know why we would not be attending again. He didn't use hateful words, but he took a political position and worse yet IMHO, made a legally flawed argument rotfl2: ) and we want no part of such as church. There are better ones out there.

I don't want to have to do "damage control" with my child after church services. I want to be able to support what my minister says. There's mild disagreement, strong disagreement and words/beliefs that are so abhorrent that they do require me to stand up, take my child's hand and walk down the aisle and out the door. That is the example I want to set for her. If someone....especially someone in authority...says something as offensive as Rev. Wright did, I would teach her that it is our duty to stand up for what WE believe in and walk out. If we were absent one week and the grapevine let me know that such things had been said, I'd get confirmation and then I wouldn't go back. Why? I'd be afraid it would happen again, and THIS time my child would hear it. And I'd never want her to think we agreed with those words.

It is not in my nature to give tacit approval and just sit there. In school, I didn't sign petitions....I started them. My parents taught me to stand up for what you believe in, even when it is not popular. Hey, it's not fun being one of the 10% of Democrats in this town, but I'm sticking to it.

From reading these posts, it seems that there are quite a number of people who truly would not walk out, let alone quit a church over these things. But that group needs to understand that for those of us who cannot fathom how a person could continue to stay, our position is not a false one meant for effect. It is what we would really do and several of us (on various threads) have given instances of doing exactly that. And that for us, it is hard to imagine a person who wants our vote for POTUS not being the kind of person who would also stand up, walk out and not go back....whether he heard it in person or found out about it through the grapevine. Perhaps we envision a POTUS made of the stuff that would take an uncomfortable stand ASAP, even against a longtime friend, over something so disturbing as the sermons he delivered. Because doing the right thing is HARD. And I want a POTUS who can and will do the right thing, and do it before his back is up against a wall. .

 

[kribit]

The church we have attended for 10 years has never once gotten anywhere remotely close to any of the topics you're discussing. The most controversial thing the minister has said was that it would be wise to focus less on making money and acquiring things and spend more time with our familes. He's soooooo outrageous, that one!

Every week, he says a prayer for our political leaders....a generic prayer. I pay attention carefully because I'm a Democrat living in a 90% Republican town and if I started hearing "Republican" prayers, I'd be gone. But it has never happened. The closest we ever came was an elder who clearly had a bias and alluded to favoritism, but you would have had to have been paying very close attention to have noticed it. And he only did it once, because he was never given the chance to say the prayer again. I'm pretty sure the minister shut him down and told him we weren't going to play that game at this church. Every week, we say a prayer for some other church in town, that their ministry will thrive and that they will be able to help the community and do God's work. Only rarely are they of the same denomination as we are, so we spread it around.

This is the church we chose to attend just after we bolted from the church where the minister took a position on President Clinton's impeachment and sent a letter to all members and regular visitors like us regarding such. We were on the verge on joining, but nixed that idea after this very charismatic minister (who is so much a part of the church that he might as well BE the church...sound familiar?) pulled that stunt. The handwriting was on the wall that he was ready and willing to use his position as the minister to influence church members. No thanks. I let him know why we would not be attending again. He didn't use hateful words, but he took a political position and worse yet IMHO, made a legally flawed argument rotfl2: ) and we want no part of such as church. There are better ones out there.

I don't want to have to do "damage control" with my child after church services. I want to be able to support what my minister says. There's mild disagreement, strong disagreement and words/beliefs that are so abhorrent that they do require me to stand up, take my child's hand and walk down the aisle and out the door. That is the example I want to set for her. If someone....especially someone in authority...says something as offensive as Rev. Wright did, I would teach her that it is our duty to stand up for what WE believe in and walk out. If we were absent one week and the grapevine let me know that such things had been said, I'd get confirmation and then I wouldn't go back. Why? I'd be afraid it would happen again, and THIS time my child would hear it. And I'd never want her to think we agreed with those words.

It is not in my nature to give tacit approval and just sit there. In school, I didn't sign petitions....I started them. My parents taught me to stand up for what you believe in, even when it is not popular. Hey, it's not fun being one of the 10% of Democrats in this town, but I'm sticking to it.

From reading these posts, it seems that there are quite a number of people who truly would not walk out, let alone quit a church over these things. But that group needs to understand that for those of us who cannot fathom how a person could continue to stay, our position is not a false one meant for effect. It is what we would really do and several of us (on various threads) have given instances of doing exactly that. And that for us, it is hard to imagine a person who wants our vote for POTUS not being the kind of person who would also stand up, walk out and not go back....whether he heard it in person or found out about it through the grapevine. Perhaps we envision a POTUS made of the stuff that would take an uncomfortable stand ASAP, even against a longtime friend, over something so disturbing as the sermons he delivered. Because doing the right thing is HARD. And I want a POTUS who can and will do the right thing, and do it before his back is up against a wall. .

What a great post.