Not educating child

[ccgirl]

I have an issue with one of my wife's former friends, who also used to be our nanny. I say "former", as my wife has little contact with her now. She had brought such drama and poor influence into our household, we decided our family was better off without her.

However, I still have a major concern with her. She took her (then) 13 year old daughter out of school last year to "home school" her. Normally, this wouldn't be an issue -- I respect the decisions of families that are doing what they feel is best for the education of their children. The concern I have is that she doesn't educate her daughter at all. Instead, she uses her as a babysitter for their one-year old.

We had utilized the mom as a nanny over the summer, but let her go when she told us that she would not be putting her daughter in school again. In fact, she wanted to be able to leave her nanny responsibilities in the early afternoon, and have her daughter finish up watching our kids each day. We told her that we couldn't do that, didn't feel that what she was doing to her child was right, and that we'd need to find a new nanny.

We recently found out from the daughter that no home schooling has taken place this fall, and that she is primarily responsible for taking care of her younger brother. My wife has had multiple discussions with the mother in the past, trying to advocate for the daughter, to no use. We have been essentially told to "butt out".

After a great deal of thought and prayer, my wife contacted Child Protective Services and filed a complaint. Do you think we overstepped our bounds?

Reminds me of the thread of people that would call the police if they saw a child in a car even if the mom just ran in for milk. Amazing how some of them think you overstepped your bounds here.

Let CPS decide.

 

[tlbwriter]

You have a far different understanding of CPS than I do. If she is suffering from PPD and it hasn't been picked up on by her doctors (who should be very much attuned to it) and her family, i have a hard time believing an overworked CPS agent is going to recognize it, diagnose it, and ensure she's treated appropriately. If I thought she had PPD, I'd probably talk to her family.

You're assuming she's actually seeing doctors and that her family knows and cares that something is wrong. Many women hide their PPD, and others are expected to "snap out of it" because those close to them don't get it. Obviously a CPS agent can't diagnose it or ensure she's treated, but just having one person say "Are you sure you're okay? Have you seen a doctor about this?" when something seems "off" can make a difference.

 

[Coconut36]

First one would have to have a clear definition of educational neglect. To me that means a 13 year old not being able to read, write, do basic math problems etc. Are we to judge this "neglect" on he/she not learning exactly what her peers in public school are learning?

That is what gets me about this..reading homeschooling laws there isn't always wording in them that indicates a parent has to follow any sort of specific curriculum or teach them X concept by Y age or anything of that nature..so how can one claim neglect if there is no law that indicates she has to be doing X Y or Z (and maybe she can already do things well above her age/grade level as it is) at a given time so how can you claim the Mom isn't doing anything when there is nothing that legally spells out what she has to be doing in the first place!

 

[tlbwriter]

Well the OP has fired this person, the OP has stated their "suggestions" for what this parent needed to do with her child's education was met with a "butt out"..the OP obviously feels they know what this parent needs to do regardless of being told to get out of their personal business..being rebuffed by someone could make someone angry..if she didn't comply it could easily lead to them being angry with her and going farther than they should regarding this.

"Hey, I'm going to start saying home in the afternoons and my 13 yr old is going to do the job you're paying me for."

"Um, no, sorry, not comfortable with that. Also, why isn't your 13 yr old in school?"

"Mind your own business."

"Okay, don't need your services any more, thanks. And seriously, that kid should be in school."

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a vendetta firing to me.

 

[luvmy3]

It always interests me to see how people start assuming points not addressed in posts. Maybe they're right, maybe they're not, but unless I have a reason to do otherwise, I take the poster at face value.

I homeschooled and am a firm believer in a parent's right to do so, but it's not right that the mother is using her child as labor rather than educating her. I'm not sure what I would have done, but I can certainly understand why the OP chose to contact CPS.

Interesting, because I would see that 13 year old caring for children as education, and a valuable one at that. They do offer classes on doing just that in HS, why couldn't this real world experience be counted as education and counted towards homeschooling?
(I'm not so sure I believe she is just using her child for labor, but I don't see an issue with a mom using her dd for help with a yonger sibling. I do it with my own, and if you ask her (she's 13 BTW) she'd have an issue with having to do it)
I'm asking because I'm truly wondering just what constitutes education in a State who doesn't monitor or have testing and standards for homeschool students?

 

[Mama Who]

Reminds me of the thread of people that would call the police if they saw a child in a car even if the mom just ran in for milk. Amazing how some of them think you overstepped your bounds here.

Let CPS decide.

Apples and bricks. A small child alone in a car is direct evidence of the violation of a law forbidding such behavior. (At least, it is here.) Unless the OP has visible proof that this child is uneducated to a reasonable standard for her age, no such evidence is present here. Even if no active steps are being taken by her mother we STILL don't know she's suffering a lack of education. To prove educational neglect you'd have to demonstrate that she was significantly behind her peers. Even if the OP is 100% correct in his assertion that the child is currently undergoing NO form of education whatsoever, it still doesn't prove she's behind. There was a point in time where I could have removed my son from school for a full year and let him do nothing but play tiddlywinks and he'd still have tested at grade level in all subjects.

FWIW, around here we have truancy officers. They are empowered to check on homeschoolers. CPS is like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. If the sole concern is education, the educational authorities would have been a more appropriate fit.

 

[princessmom29]

As I stated..CPS is extremely serious business IMO and you better be 1000% certain what is going on before you send them after a parent(s). A 13-14 year old's word on what goes on at home regarding schooling and watching a younger sibling is simply not enough IMO to warrant a call to CPS based on what she said. Isn't it possible she lied or exaggerated? Isn't it possible she could be pissed at Mom for watching the brother 1 day or certain afternoons and wanted to complain? Again..I view CPS to be pretty serious and if some kid said "all I do all day is take care of my little brother" you bet I would be looking into things before calling in agencies over it.



.

When you are a mndatory reporter, you don't have this luxury. If you have reason to SUSPECT abuse, and don't report it, even if you are nto sure, you are subject to prosecuation for it. Even if youare NOT 1000% sure yuo had BETTER report it! That would apply in this case as well. A mandatory reporter would be subject to prosecution for not reporting what the child told them.

 

[Coconut36]

When you are a mndatory reporter, you don't have this luxury. If you have reason to SUSPECT abuse, and don't report it, even if you are nto sure, you are subject to prosecuation for it. Even if youare NOT 1000% sure yuo had BETTER report it! That would apply in this case as well. A mandatory reporter would be subject to prosecution for not reporting what the child told them.

This isn't a mandatory reporter is it? I am not talking about someone like that...I am talking about other parents/friends/family who make accusations/calls without getting any details. I also don't view this as abuse either..a kid saying they are being hit/beaten is not on par with a kid saying "my Mom makes me take care of my brother all day" in regards to involving CPS based only on the word of the kid.

 

[Coconut36]

Apples and bricks. A small child alone in a car is direct evidence of the violation of a law forbidding such behavior. (At least, it is here.) Unless the OP has visible proof that this child is uneducated to a reasonable standard for her age, no such evidence is present here. Even if no active steps are being taken by her mother we STILL don't know she's suffering a lack of education. To prove educational neglect you'd have to demonstrate that she was significantly behind her peers. Even if the OP is 100% correct in his assertion that the child is currently undergoing NO form of education whatsoever, it still doesn't prove she's behind. There was a point in time where I could have removed my son from school for a full year and let him do nothing but play tiddlywinks and he'd still have tested at grade level in all subjects.

FWIW, around here we have truancy officers. They are empowered to check on homeschoolers. CPS is like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. If the sole concern is education, the educational authorities would have been a more appropriate fit.

Totally agree with all of this..very well said!

 

[DopeyDame]

just having one person say "Are you sure you're okay? Have you seen a doctor about this?" when something seems "off" can make a difference.

Yup. Absolutely. Someone should say that. Maybe even the OP. Calling CPS is not the way to make sure someone says that to this woman. And even if someone from CPS did say that, I would guess that most people would say "Yup, I'm great. I had a doctors apt. last week. Thanks for asking!" to someone from CPS. No way would they risk continued investigation by saying things were bad in any way shape or form. (Assuming that PPD is anywhere on the radar in this situation, which is purely hypothetical seeing as the OP hasn't mentioned it at all.)

 

[jodifla]

This isn't a mandatory reporter is it? I am not talking about someone like that...I am talking about other parents/friends/family who make accusations/calls without getting any details. I also don't view this as abuse either..a kid saying they are being hit/beaten is not on par with a kid saying "my Mom makes me take care of my brother all day" in regards to involving CPS based only on the word of the kid.

But you keep ignoring the fact the daughter said it, the mother confirmed it, and the OP was actually tried to assist the mom in finding educational choices when they were told she wasn't going to do anything about her daughter's education.

It's not a passing comment.....

It's unfathomable that someone would think that not providing an education for your child AND basically looking at them as a way to bring in cash isn't a problem when the child is 13. Don't know of ANY state that lets a kid drop out at 13.

 

[C.Ann]

I don't think it is so much that anybody thinks it is okay, it is just that CPS - at least here and from what I can tell about Nebraska there too - has no authority to do anything about it.

So, a call to CPS isn't going to do a thing. If anybody was interested in solving this they'd have to start by lobbying their State legislature to monitor and regulate home school curriculum. That is a whole new can of worms and I don't know that it would solve much. I mean, we have some Chicago Public Schools (which our Secretary of Education used to run) that only have about 10 to 20% of their students meeting minimum education standards. Is this 13 year old any worse off than those students? If educational neglect is a crime, maybe we should start calling CPS on some of our schools too.

I agree completely. CPS is not always a benign insitution. A cursory newspaper search will turn up countless cases of people having their children removed from them over nothing, sometimes for a very long time. CPS workers have very large caseloads and there is often high turnover and inadequate training. A call to CPS is nothing to take lightly.

I'm very familiar with the CPS system in NY.. Between DD & I we have 4 close friends who work for CPS.. A 13 yr. old not attending school would be considered a ridiculous reason for calling - and when they made a home visit (as mandated once a "neglect" call comes in) should the nanny whip out something, anything - that indicated the child was receiving even a minimal education at home - the OP (if they identified themselves when the report was made) could be charged with filing a false report..

They just don't have the time or the resources - when they are dealing with serious life and death situations - to handle educational issues - for which there are other avenues that can be approached to monitor the situation..

I'm really surprised that people don't understand that.. Are you from states where the number of serious child abuse cases are so low your CPS workers have the time and resources to run around checking up on whether or not a 13 year old is being home schooled?

Do you realize how many cases of serious - life or death - child abuse allegations need to be investigated just in New York City alone?? That's not even counting the rest of the state!

Maybe you don't agree, but they just don't have the time or the manpower to spend on calls such as this..

 

[tlbwriter]

Interesting, because I would see that 13 year old caring for children as education, and a valuable one at that. They do offer classes on doing just that in HS, why couldn't this real world experience be counted as education and counted towards homeschooling?

For the same reason that having your child work at McDonalds doesn't count as education. This girl isn't getting an education, she's getting on-the-job training, and it's not the same thing.

 

[horseshowmom]

Interesting, because I would see that 13 year old caring for children as education, and a valuable one at that. They do offer classes on doing just that in HS, why couldn't this real world experience be counted as education and counted towards homeschooling?

(I'm not so sure I believe she is just using her child for labor, but I don't see an issue with a mom using her dd for help with a yonger sibling. I do it with my own, and if you ask her (she's 13 BTW) she'd have an issue with having to do it)
I'm asking because I'm truly wondering just what constitutes education in a State who doesn't monitor or have testing and standards for homeschool students?

My issue would be that childcare isn't the ONLY class they take in school. Of course, I don't have a problem with the girl helping care for her sibling (or helping out around the house). That's part of being part of a family. HOWEVER, that's not what the mother said. She said that she isn't educating the girl. Taking care of her sibling cannot take the place of an education.

 

[ccgirl]

Apples and bricks. A small child alone in a car is direct evidence of the violation of a law forbidding such behavior. (At least, it is here.) Unless the OP has visible proof that this child is uneducated to a reasonable standard for her age, no such evidence is present here. Even if no active steps are being taken by her mother we STILL don't know she's suffering a lack of education. To prove educational neglect you'd have to demonstrate that she was significantly behind her peers. Even if the OP is 100% correct in his assertion that the child is currently undergoing NO form of education whatsoever, it still doesn't prove she's behind. There was a point in time where I could have removed my son from school for a full year and let him do nothing but play tiddlywinks and he'd still have tested at grade level in all subjects.

FWIW, around here we have truancy officers. They are empowered to check on homeschoolers. CPS is like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. If the sole concern is education, the educational authorities would have been a more appropriate fit.

The OP does not need to prove anything. Just as in those examples of people calling the police and letting the "law" decide, the OP is calling CPS and letting them "decide". And, what if the CPS goes to the door and finds not only is the mom not educating the child but some of the other forms of hideous abuse is happening too. Sounds like this child called out for help and the OP answered the call. Again, it's amazing to me that those that think a 6 year old can't be left in the car for 5 minutes and would call the police but this is none of the OP's business. Guess what, the police are busy with "serious" offenses just like CPS. They are the first to get called for rape, burglary, murder, robbery etc. The same argument could hold true that they shouldn't be called for a child perfectly okay in the car because they are too busy too.

 

[knitster]

I think a better option would have been to call the school district. They are the ones in charge of homeschooling.

No, they're not.

 

[luvmy3]

For the same reason that having your child work at McDonalds doesn't count as education. This girl isn't getting an education, she's getting on-the-job training, and it's not the same thing.

Thats a leap, she isn't working at McD, she is helping out at home. Interestingly enough my dd had to do laundry and cook us meals for a week last year for one of her classes. Seems like if she could be "graded" on that, the 13 year old cou;d be "graded" on her babysitting skills.
FTR, when I was in HS the kids at the public school could leave early to go to work, and they actually recieved credit towards it. I didn't go to public school, my school did not allow that.
I believe they do that here in the HS my kids will go to. So, even working at McD's would count towards education.

My issue would be that childcare isn't the ONLY class they take in school. Of course, I don't have a problem with the girl helping care for her sibling (or helping out around the house). That's part of being part of a family. HOWEVER, that's not what the mother said. She said that she isn't educating the girl. Taking care of her sibling cannot take the place of an education.

Again, what is meant by not educating? Is it because the mother is not following a curriculum? Does the OPs State require that she does? What are their requirements for homeschooling? Does anyone know, I don't recall the OP sharing.

ETA I didn't mean that since she is taking care of her sibling she is being completely educated, however it is "education" and could be used as credit towards fulfilling requirements for being homeschooled if you compare it to some of the Life classes that public schools offer. So essentially she is being educated but maybe not the way the OP would like.

 

[tw1nsmom]

I'm very familiar with the CPS system in NY.. Between DD & I we have 4 close friends who work for CPS.. A 13 yr. old not attending school would be considered a ridiculous reason for calling - and when they made a home visit (as mandated once a "neglect" call comes in) should the nanny whip out something, anything - that indicated the child was receiving even a minimal education at home - the OP (if they identified themselves when the report was made) could be charged with filing a false report..

They just don't have the time or the resources - when they are dealing with serious life and death situations - to handle educational issues - for which there are other avenues that can be approached to monitor the situation..

I'm really surprised that people don't understand that.. Are you from states where the number of serious child abuse cases are so low your CPS workers have the time and resources to run around checking up on whether or not a 13 year old is being home schooled?

Do you realize how many cases of serious - life or death - child abuse allegations need to be investigated just in New York City alone?? That's not even counting the rest of the state!

Maybe you don't agree, but they just don't have the time or the manpower to spend on calls such as this..

I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. I was a mandated reporter and SUSPECTED educational neglect is a category of child abuse that would be under the jurisdiction of CPS and one that I would have been required to report. In NY state you cannot just choose to home school. You must notify the resident school district and submit curriculum plans. You must also keep running records, records of testing, portfolio and attendance records. The enforcement of this depends on the school district and the local authorities. There was a case last year in our area where home schooling parents were arrested because they hadn't registered their children with the district as home schoolers. They had plenty of documentation that they were working with their children but because they hadn't registered they were in trouble.

 

[luvsJack]

Not an excuse for what? Of course someone with depression needs adult care and to go to the doctor - do you know that's not happening? (Obviously, you don't just as I don't know if she has depression or not.) As for playing catchup - nope, I wouldn't have ANY concern about a kid missing a few months of structured schooling and catching up on that later. In fact, if finances permit it, we're planning on doing that with our son when he's older so we can do some extensive traveling.

My point wasn't that this particular child will or will not meet high school minimums (how in the world would I know what this kid is capable of), but that it's not the position of one parent to define what's necessary for another kid's education.

Its not an excuse for not making sure her child gets an education. If she has enough presence of mind to make sure her one year old is taken care of, she should have enough to do the same for her 13 year old. A 13 year old certainly should not have to stay home all day and take care of a baby and make sure mom is ok too!

Its not fair to make a choice like that for your child. They shouldn't have to be playing catch up or put in a class with kids a lot younger just because the parent makes a choice like that. This parent isn't doing something that could be seen as educational. She is using the child for free babysitting.

 

[luvsJack]

Thats a leap, she isn't working at McD, she is helping out at home. Interestingly enough my dd had to do laundry and cook us meals for a week last year for one of her classes. Seems like if she could be "graded" on that, the 13 year old cou;d be "graded" on her babysitting skills.
FTR, when I was in HS the kids at the public school could leave early to go to work, and they actually recieved credit towards it. I didn't go to public school, my school did not allow that.
I believe they do that here in the HS my kids will go to. So, even working at McD's would count towards education.




Again, what is meant by not educating? Is it because the mother is not following a curriculum? Does the OPs State require that she does? What are their requirements for homeschooling? Does anyone know, I don't recall the OP sharing.

Was your child doing anything else while she did these things for this class? Was she still going to a math class, science class, etc. or was her entire school day taken up with doing laundry and fixing meals? If not, then that is not a reasonable comparison.

There is nothing wrong with this girl helping out at home. Taking her out of school to take care of a younger sibling is not "helping out", its doing the work the mother should be doing.