Not educating child

[C.Ann]

Yes you probably overstepped. You are not this child's parent and you might not be getting the full picture from the kid.

There was nothing CPS could have or would have done and I will be surprised if they do anything in your case either..to me CPS honestly has far more serious matters to focus on than this..I would rather they help the kid being beaten or starved personally but I get that your heart was the in the right place.

Does your state have a program like this? http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/JuvenileProbation/Probation/CUTS.asp

My biggest issue is that you called CPS..something very serious IMO based on the word of a 13ish year old? Yeah that is a big concern to me..kids lie, exaggerate and manipulate the facts to try to suit their needs and purposes..I don't believe it is good or appropriate to call in serious authorities over some statements from a kid. I would need more details and actual verification of what is going on before I considered calling the police.

I get that you are trying to help the child but you don't have the right to police everyone else and what they do or how they do it.

CPS IMO is very much the wrong place to go to..that is for serious serious stuff..school district or local truancy program for your city/state/county would be more appropriate but I do ask..what are the ages regarding education and homeschooling in your state? Before you called did you review them to find out if the mother is even doing something that would be illegal or go against the laws for homeschooling in your state?

I don't know about other states, but the CPS in NY are so overwhelmed with cases of severe abuse that require investigating (beatings; sexual abuse; starving; etc.) the last thing they need is a call to investigate a child not going to school.. While they're at the home investigating your former nanny, some other child could be in the position of being repeatedly sexually abused or beaten to death.. Every year additional CPS workers are being laid off - while the number of calls for severe abuse is rising.. To call about a teen not going to school is mind boggling to me..

Your avenue of intervention - if you truly believe this is happening as you are stating - should have been the state board of education..

This is not the type of neglect that should be tossed in the laps of the already overworked CPS employees who are trying to save childrens lives or remove them from a home where they are being sexually abused and/or are going without food..

I suppose they're mandated to investigate it now (they would be in NY - within 48 hours) and I find that very upsetting.. They will be checking on your former nanny while another child is in extreme danger - and could possibly die..

Bad call - in my opinion..

 

[jodifla]

Sorry, "he." Too much time on boards where everyone is female has given me the bad habit of using the feminine as the default.

While you know how you have interpreted what you've been told, you are not present, you have not witnessed the situation, you are on the outside, looking in.

Not all education looks the same. Traditional schoolers often don't even recognize some homeschooling methods as being education at all... which doesn't mean they aren't. Heck, half the time the reason the oddball approaches work is that the kid doesn't even notice. Sometimes the right approach for a kid involves some time off. Some experts recommend a "deschooling" period when a kid leaves a particularly toxic school experience.

You are misunderstanding what I asked, so let me be clear. Even if you are the best parent ever and your choices are without flaw, you would almost certainly find it intrusive for another parent to call you on them (notice how defensive you got about your nanny) to the extent of calling CPS. Do you really think that this issue was so severe and so clear cut that the child should potentially spend the next 5 years in a group home? That her mother is unfit and should be declared so by a court? Or is it possible that CPS was overkill for the situation? If someone thinks your child's education is substandard, do you want them to do the same?

And if someone told you, repeatedly, that they were doing NO schooling for their child, that the child was used as a baby sitter, you'd let that go?

 

[Coconut36]

Of course, the daughter is telling them the same thing.

Can't believe people think it's OK for a child not to have any schooling at all, and just be used to work.

And you think the mother is unaware of what was said by the kid? She could easily have said "no I don't do anything at all..I want her to watch my youngest child so I can be lazy all day long" while doing this in her head: Because really..that is what the OP is saying the mother has said although in the OP it was only the daughter that said it and when the mother was told by them what she had to do they were told to butt out. You don't think the mother might not find them annoying/pushy/overbearing and just said "yep..that's it..that's what I'm doing" hoping they would go away?

 

[kamik86]

I don't know about other states, but the CPS in NY are so overwhelmed with cases of severe abuse that require investigating (beatings; sexual abuse; starving; etc.) the last thing they need is a call to investigate a child not going to school.. While they're at the home investigating your former nanny, some other child could be in the position of being repeatedly sexually abused or beaten to death.. Every year additional CPS workers are being laid off - while the number of calls for severe abuse is rising.. To call about a teen not going to school is mind boggling to me..

Your avenue of intervention - if you truly believe this is happening as you are stating - should have been the state board of education..

This is not the type of neglect that should be tossed in the laps of the already overworked CPS employees who are trying to save childrens lives or remove them from a home where they are being sexually abused and/or are going without food..

I suppose they're mandated to investigate it now (they would be in NY - within 48 hours) and I find that very upsetting.. They will be checking on your former nanny while another child is in extreme danger - and could possibly die..

Bad call - in my opinion..

So should people not report anything because it might not be severe enough? Besides you just said they are mandated to show up within 48 hours. The case of severe abuse they would also be mandated to show up in 48 hours. How much time they spend investigating and which one they get to in 12 and which one ins 47 hours is up to them.

 

[tlbwriter]

And you think the mother is unaware of what was said by the kid? She could easily have said "no I don't do anything at all..I want her to watch my youngest child so I can be lazy all day long" while doing this in her head: Because really..that is what the OP is saying the mother has said although in the OP it was only the daughter that said it and when the mother was told by them what she had to do they were told to butt out. You don't think the mother might not find them annoying/pushy/overbearing and just said "yep..that's it..that's what I'm doing" hoping they would go away?

Well, if you're going to assume every story someone tells here is a lie, the DIS is going to get awfully quiet.

 

[Mama Who]

And if someone told you, repeatedly, that they were doing NO schooling for their child, that the child was used as a baby sitter, you'd let that go?

Someone I had vetted and had enough faith in to leave my own child in their care? I'd assume she was unschooling, deschooling, alternative accessing... I mean, lets not forget that not that long ago this woman was trustworthy enough to be in charge of the OP's kids.

 

[DopeyDame]

I'm fascinated by people who call CPS. If I truly believe a child is in danger, I'd call the police - either 911 if there is something actually happening right then and there that could be stopped or the regular police number during business hours if it was a more systemic, ongoing situation. If it was an issue not worthy of the police, than it falls into the category of allowing others to parent as they see fit. It would never cross my mind to call CPS.

Philosophically, I think all kids need an education (duh) but I'm definitely uncomfortable with one parent deciding for another what an education should be for their kid. I'm guessing a reasonably educated 13 year old already can meet the bare minimums required of most high school students (the standards really aren't that hard), so if she passes some standardized tests for 12th graders, then is it OK for her to babysit her brother? If she meets a certain SAT score? What if the kids go to a Sudbury school? Montessori? Waldorf?

Honestly, in this situation post partem depression is the first thing that came to mind. Maybe the mom really needs the daughter's help right now, and intends to do some serious catch-up education in a few months when the baby is older and the mom feels better. Who knows???

Like I said, if I ever saw a kid I suspected of being abused, I'd call the cops. If it was an issue the cops wouldn't care about, I wouldn't call anyone.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

So should people not report anything because it might not be severe enough? Besides you just said they are mandated to show up within 48 hours. The case of severe abuse they would also be mandated to show up in 48 hours. How much time they spend investigating and which one they get to in 12 and which one ins 47 hours is up to them.

No....She said a different avenue should have been taken.

 

[Coconut36]

I don't know about other states, but the CPS in NY are so overwhelmed with cases of severe abuse that require investigating (beatings; sexual abuse; starving; etc.) the last thing they need is a call to investigate a child not going to school.. While they're at the home investigating your former nanny, some other child could be in the position of being repeatedly sexually abused or beaten to death.. Every year additional CPS workers are being laid off - while the number of calls for severe abuse is rising.. To call about a teen not going to school is mind boggling to me..

Your avenue of intervention - if you truly believe this is happening as you are stating - should have been the state board of education..

This is not the type of neglect that should be tossed in the laps of the already overworked CPS employees who are trying to save childrens lives or remove them from a home where they are being sexually abused and/or are going without food..

I suppose they're mandated to investigate it now (they would be in NY - within 48 hours) and I find that very upsetting.. They will be checking on your former nanny while another child is in extreme danger - and could possibly die..

Bad call - in my opinion..

Exactly!

I ask again though..did the OP do any investigating at all regarding homeschooling in their state? Did they find out what age a parent could legally pull a child from school as a "drop out" if they choose? Did they look into the appropriate agencies to handle education related issues? Nope..they called CPS of all places!

I have to wonder what is going in with a child who doesn't learn anything when simply taken out of school. Either something MUCH bigger was going on at home, or there were other reasons that she was taken out (like she was never going to read well anyway).

How exactly were they going to learn anything? This was the 1980s..they didn't have a computer or video games, books were minimal to non existent. They had toys..lots and lots of toys but Barbie and a swing set doesn't teach you reading or counting or basic math does it? Barbie isn't going to give you the ability to write a letter or spell a word. A bicycle doesn't each these things either. Now many parents could make those into learning activities.."hey Susie..can you count how many Barbies you have?" but not this parent. She never did anything like that. She wouldn't say "oh look at the apples..what color are they" or "how many are there" or "can you read the recipe for me"..nope. So how exactly does one learn if nobody does that? If books are non existent to them (I can't even remember more than a couple that were her 5 year old brothers) and there are no other resources?

I guess I struggle to understand what you think they are going to learn or how they could be at grade level/age level when nothing is done. I do mean nothing. This person was a friend from the time I was 4 until we lost touch in our teens. Nothing was done..maybe you have to see it to understand it but it is not shocking that a child would have no education in such a situation.

As for "something much bigger" going on at home..meaning what? Mom was a weirdo....she was not harmful or a safety risk but she was considered quite radical in her beliefs back then..homebirth, extended breastfeeding, homeschooling, only natural homemade foods (nothing processed in their home..not even bread..unfortunately Mom was a horrid cook and while edible was not flavorful or tasty)..etc. (by the way..those aren't necessarily the reasons she was wacky..all perfectly reasonable..but many years later for example she was trying to use the sun for food..she felt that by staring at it for hours it would nourish the body and solve world hunger issues or some such craziness!).

I found out later that the parents went on Wife Swap (only the youngest child lived at home at that point) and ummm..I used to think they exaggerated the nature of the people on those shows..not so sure now as the summaries are read are spot on for the people I knew.

So by "much bigger issues" I am not sure what you mean..abuse? No..neglectful of their education? Yep.

 

[luvsJack]

And you think the mother is unaware of what was said by the kid? She could easily have said "no I don't do anything at all..I want her to watch my youngest child so I can be lazy all day long" while doing this in her head: Because really..that is what the OP is saying the mother has said although in the OP it was only the daughter that said it and when the mother was told by them what she had to do they were told to butt out. You don't think the mother might not find them annoying/pushy/overbearing and just said "yep..that's it..that's what I'm doing" hoping they would go away?

How about we take the OP at his word and assume he know a bit more about the situation than we do?

The mom SAID she wants the child to keep her younger sibling. She SAID she is not educating the child. That is neglect.

If she was stupid enough to say that and not clearly let someone understand she was being sarcastic--that would be her problem. The kid comes first.

I don't get why so many people thing not allowing your child to get an education is ok??

 

[tlbwriter]

Someone I had vetted and had enough faith in to leave my own child in their care? I'd assume she was unschooling, deschooling, alternative accessing... I mean, lets not forget that not that long ago this woman was trustworthy enough to be in charge of the OP's kids.

Yes, and then they decided she wasn't trustworthy after all. Are we not allowed to change our minds as we learn more about people?

 

[jodifla]

And you think the mother is unaware of what was said by the kid? She could easily have said "no I don't do anything at all..I want her to watch my youngest child so I can be lazy all day long" while doing this in her head: Because really..that is what the OP is saying the mother has said although in the OP it was only the daughter that said it and when the mother was told by them what she had to do they were told to butt out. You don't think the mother might not find them annoying/pushy/overbearing and just said "yep..that's it..that's what I'm doing" hoping they would go away?

I guess it's possible....and then if I were her I'd certainly expect someone from CPS to be at my door lickety-split, because NOT educating your child is NEGLECT.

Maybe she'll wise up after that. Saying you are "homeschooling" isn't a pass to neglect your children, and if enough cases like this are found, homeschooling laws are going to get a lot more strict.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I'm fascinated by people who call CPS. If I truly believe a child is in danger, I'd call the police - either 911 if there is something actually happening right then and there that could be stopped or the regular police number during business hours if it was a more systemic, ongoing situation. If it was an issue not worthy of the police, than it falls into the category of allowing others to parent as they see fit. It would never cross my mind to call CPS.

Philosophically, I think all kids need an education (duh) but I'm definitely uncomfortable with one parent deciding for another what an education should be for their kid. I'm guessing a reasonably educated 13 year old already can meet the bare minimums required of most high school students (the standards really aren't that hard), so if she passes some standardized tests for 12th graders, then is it OK for her to babysit her brother? If she meets a certain SAT score? What if the kids go to a Sudbury school? Montessori? Waldorf?

Honestly, in this situation post partem depression is the first thing that came to mind. Maybe the mom really needs the daughter's help right now, and intends to do some serious catch-up education in a few months when the baby is older and the mom feels better. Who knows???

Like I said, if I ever saw a kid I suspected of being abused, I'd call the cops. If it was an issue the cops wouldn't care about, I wouldn't call anyone.

 

[luvsJack]

I'm fascinated by people who call CPS. If I truly believe a child is in danger, I'd call the police - either 911 if there is something actually happening right then and there that could be stopped or the regular police number during business hours if it was a more systemic, ongoing situation. If it was an issue not worthy of the police, than it falls into the category of allowing others to parent as they see fit. It would never cross my mind to call CPS.

Philosophically, I think all kids need an education (duh) but I'm definitely uncomfortable with one parent deciding for another what an education should be for their kid. I'm guessing a reasonably educated 13 year old already can meet the bare minimums required of most high school students (the standards really aren't that hard), so if she passes some standardized tests for 12th graders, then is it OK for her to babysit her brother? If she meets a certain SAT score? What if the kids go to a Sudbury school? Montessori? Waldorf?

Honestly, in this situation post partem depression is the first thing that came to mind. Maybe the mom really needs the daughter's help right now, and intends to do some serious catch-up education in a few months when the baby is older and the mom feels better. Who knows???

Like I said, if I ever saw a kid I suspected of being abused, I'd call the cops. If it was an issue the cops wouldn't care about, I wouldn't call anyone.

Post partum depression is not an excuse. If that is the case, she needs help that a 13 year old child cannot provide. She needs to find ADULT care for the baby and go to the doctor.

Do you really think its fair for this child to end up MAYBE being able to pass a bare minimum exam and playing "catch up" later in her education?

 

[Coconut36]

I guess it's possible....and then if I were her I'd certainly expect someone from CPS to be at my door lickety-split, because NOT educating your child is NEGLECT.

Maybe she'll wise up after that. Saying you are "homeschooling" isn't a pass to neglect your children, and if enough cases like this are found, homeschooling laws are going to get a lot more strict.

Seriously? I wouldn't anticipate someone would call CPS on me for that but people do feel perfectly entitled to police and parent for others all the time so it shouldn't surprise me.

It seems to me the OP and wife were told to MYOB by the mother..I would anticipate that being the end of it if it was me..not CPS knocking on my door.

 

[Coconut36]

Yes, and then they decided she wasn't trustworthy after all. Are we not allowed to change our minds as we learn more about people?

Or is this simply a vendetta against her for some reason we are not being told?

 

[luvsJack]

Seriously? I wouldn't anticipate someone would call CPS on me for that but people do feel perfectly entitled to police and parent for others all the time so it shouldn't surprise me.

It seems to me the OP and wife were told to MYOB by the mother..I would anticipate that being the end of it if it was me..not CPS knocking on my door.

How does it "seem to you" that anyone was told to MYOB? Because you are assuming that is what the woman meant??

 

[jodifla]

Seriously? I wouldn't anticipate someone would call CPS on me for that but people do feel perfectly entitled to police and parent for others all the time so it shouldn't surprise me.

It seems to me the OP and wife were told to MYOB by the mother..I would anticipate that being the end of it if it was me..not CPS knocking on my door.

COMPLETELY and TOTALLY seriously. And again, I'm somebody who gives thinks most "free-range" parenting styles are OK.

But not educating your 13-year-old child because you want a babysitter? I can't believe anyone thinks this is ok! All lazy mom has to do is sign up for some sort of online curriculum.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

After a great deal of thought and prayer, my wife contacted Child Protective Services and filed a complaint. Do you think we overstepped our bounds?

I am a HUGE advocate of homeschooling.

You probably could have called the county instead of CPS. CPS isn't always aware of what homeschool laws are and could be creating unnecessary headaches for this family.

But after all the crap that went down at Penn State last week--I'm not going to begrudge your concern and say you overstepped. Especially with what has been said to you by the family. This isn't 1856 or 1926 where we pull kids out because they have to help the family. "Homeschooling" isn't meant to be a blanket term to cover those types of circumstances.

The good news is--if she is actually homeschooling and compliant, then she really has nothing to worry about.

 

[bigredbill]

And this is a woman you trusted as your nanny? Sorry, I think there is much more to your story and I'm a little suspicious of your motives in calling CPS. Ad yes, I think you overstepped regardless if I'm right or wrong about why you did.

Understand your comment. We employ two PT nannies -- one works three days a week and the other two. They both brought their children into our home. At the beginning of summer, one of the individuals moved with her family out of state. We started to look for a replacement.

The mother of the daughter in question goes to our church and asked if she could take the two days. We knew her family was struggling financially and agreed. She brought her older daughter and young son into our home for a couple of months. She was very open about pulling her daughter out of school the previous year and why she did it. She had carpal tunnel (sp?) surgery that spring and stated she could not have taken care of her young son without the assistance of her older daughter.

We were under the impression that she would be sending her back to school in the fall. She wasn't sure if she was going to send her back to school this year or homeschool her. My wife assisted her in finding curriculum and on-line courses through some of the universities.

Around late July, she informed us that she wouldn't be sending her daughter to school, nor would she be using any sort of curriculum for home schooling. She also asked at that time that her daughter take over her duties in the afternoon so she could go home and clean / rest. She would also leave her young son at our home during the afternoons for her daughter to also watch. At that point my wife told her this was unacceptable and that we couldn't move forward with her as our nanny.

So, long story short, we knew her before. We both work out of the home so we can keep a close eye on things. Didn't realize what she had planned. Were uncomfortable supporting it through employment, and made a change.
In late July, she info