No the Magic isn’t gone but it’s at 25%

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

So your take is that Disney was completely oblivious to the capacity of Genie? Just clarifying not prodding. I just can’t imagine they weren’t aware of some limitations on it, with that being said I also can’t imagine putting genie out there as a money grab, knowing it would fall on its face

I think I did make it sound confusing.

The often repeated issue from some with FP+ was too many people used it towards the end and so Disney had to do something about that, well they knew with MP the price point worked. They knew that a lot of people would purchase it, they already had data on it.

I agree that they didn't just put out a different product purposefully making it fail. However I don't think they were implementing Genie+/ILL out of the goodness of their hearts to course correct guest experience, there are years worth of data not only in what rides people want, what type of guests go, what they are willing to pay for a get ahead of the line system (MP), etc via MBs and MDE data to go off of. Plus they didn't have Genie+/ILL attached to the AP program either like MP was/was able to.

What I think they may not have thought about was how manipulating just how many people in the parks each day would impact day to day stuff with Genie+/ILL. As in I don't think they thought all the way through how having a cap on one end that they determine on a day to day basis and who is included in that cap (day guests, hotel guests and AP guests where your day and hotel guests logically are likely to have a way different Genie+/ILL purchasing pattern than an AP holder) would mesh with a get ahead of the line system with no cap and a price point they knew people would buy it.



__________
Sorry I thought I hit reply yesterday guess I didn't

 

[disneydentist]

Fastpass+ was definitely better until they fixed the loophole of using magic bands from previous trips as separate sources of Fastpasses. It was great being able to prebook three and then start using three or four sets of magic bands to rack up even more, one by one.

 

[NavyDad]

It was fairly easy to get 6,7, 8 ... or 20 FPs if you were willing to put some effort in, since the FP system was widely used and in constant flux.

From what I read (no first-hand experience), a big issue with Genie is that the flux isn't there.

It was easy to get up to 20 FP (meaning 17 additional FPs) even if you scheduled you first 3 FP's in the evening?

 

[NavyDad]

Not at all, I'm just saying you keep repeating that they are managing ride capacity and yet that's only a sliver of it. Each thing Disney has done has accomplished something different, they aren't stupid..well okay they don't necessarily know when to stop, but they are doing each of these different methods because they are trying to capture something different each time.

Consider that with all the other theme parks out there that have go to the front of the line systems they don't mess with them every few years, they aren't coming up with something new and changing it all up. They just have a system out there that truly is simplistic in both monetizing and wait time to spread out lines. Even with different levels you can buy that advise it will reduce your wait time by X percentage or like with Silver Dollar City it's up to 8 uses (with a restriction of once through on their newest ride previously Time Traveler but has been replaced with Mystic River Falls) or Universal where it's once through or Unlimited.

When you quote posters to dispute their experiences or their negative opinions on Genie+ your replies ignore the different nuisances in the different products but those nuisances are exactly what people are speaking to, that's why I was replying with what I said. If you truly feel that all Disney is doing is just managing ride capacity then I would say other parks are way more honest in their presentation of their products, I think Disney is trying to be a lot more like other parks but they can't quite pin down what they want especially as they didn't cap the sales of Genie+/ILL to begin with, I think they were just trying to monetize a system on a mass level without caring about ride capacity management. At least with MP you still had FP included in your ticket which is probably one of the reasons less people used MP compared to this free for all that was Genie+/ILL. They weren't really managing the rides very well when you have complaints of long long standbys or long long LLs or long LLs but no standby line, etc

Which brings up another thing, getting into the fact that for years they used as a marketing tool "included in your park admission" for FP and that it was "free for everyone" I remember even saying that Disney would have to tread carefully on monetizing since they spent so much time marketing their product as free, included and for everyone.

Like these little gems from my 2017 customized vacation booklet with my onsite stay
View attachment 679021
View attachment 679022





You can go perusing the past threads there were a lot of them. It did seem to be a pattern that later years had more difficulty (although still quite possible) depending on when you went because more people used them but people did get more rolling 4ths in the evening. I think when we went we started ours at about the 2-3pm range when crowds typically (back then at least) picked up.


____________
In fairness we probably are looking at it in different ways, although I wanted to speak to why posters say what they say.

Again - comparing a virtual queue system at WDW to a cut the line system that other parks may employ doesn't make any sense. They are two completely different systems that are trying to do completely different things. A virtual queue system like FP+ or Genie Plus is literally a way to manage demand for a ride / ride capacity so that customers can do other things (like shop or eat) while they wait for their turn to ride instead of standing in a physical queueing area. This isn't just a "sliver" of what they do - its the essence of what they are. All of the different changes don't actually change they inherent qualities of the system - which is the total ride capacity of the parks or the total demand for rides/attractions the park sees each day. It is impossible to make meaningful changes to the overall system of the virtual queue without either increasing capacity or reducing demand. All of the other changes are essentially window dressing.

The cut the line passes other parks employ are not a virtual queue and they are not designed to do the same thing. Those products allow you to just skip the queue altogether.

The best way to explain the difference is FP+ and Genie Plus are like when you call customer service of a mega corporation and you are asked if they can automatically call you back later. This way you can do other things instead of waiting with the phone up to your ear. The cut the line passes are essentially you calling the owner of a local company directly because you know them and they roll out the red carpet for you and take care of your issue right away without having to wait on hold.

Making the comparison of WDW virtual queue systems and cut the line products at say Cedar point is like saying:

"Well, when I have a problem with service at Bob's auto repair here in town, I just call Bob directly. He and I went to school together and he always takes care of me right away. If he can do that, I don't understand why when I have a problem with my iPhone, I have to call and be placed in a virtual queue. Why can't Tim Cook just take our calls and fix our problems directly. If Bob's auto repair can do that simply and easily, Apple should be able to do the same with me having to jump through hoops"

Serious question: have you watched the video our Red Panda friend posted in it's entirety?

 

[NavyDad]

Honestly I think Disney knew people would buy it no matter what price they would've set Genie+ at. $15, $25, $50 or even $100. People would've bought it regardless of the complaints. Just look at the Top of the World Lounge for example. The lounge perk was removed for resale DVC members and yet the new event for the lounge sold out in 45-ish minutes despite major pushback and complaints. This is clearly an incentive to get people to buy direct, plain and simple. Disney can do whatever they want and charge whatever they want and people will buy it anyway.

Now the amount of people buying it at $15 is another story. I think the price at the moment is a testing ground. It will absolutely be getting a price increase in the future. That's why you can't buy it in advance anymore. They don't care how many people complain about the price. They know people will suck it up and buy it.

You have laid out the problem perfectly: DEMAND

In a normal supply and demand environment Disney would just keep raising the price until demand pressure equalized. The problem is Disney has so much stinking demand, if they really did that it would be a PR nightmare.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Again - comparing a virtual queue system at WDW to a cut the line system that other parks may employ doesn't make any sense. They are two completely different systems that are trying to do completely different things. A virtual queue system like FP+ or Genie Plus is literally a way to manage demand for a ride / ride capacity so that customers can do other things (like shop or eat) while they wait for their turn to ride instead of standing in a physical queueing area. This isn't just a "sliver" of what they do - its the essence of what they are. All of the different changes don't actually change they inherent qualities of the system - which is the total ride capacity of the parks or the total demand for rides/attractions the park sees each day. It is impossible to make meaningful changes to the overall system of the virtual queue without either increasing capacity or reducing demand. All of the other changes are essentially window dressing.

The cut the line passes other parks employ are not a virtual queue and they are not designed to do the same thing. Those products allow you to just skip the queue altogether.

The best way to explain the difference is FP+ and Genie Plus are like when you call customer service of a mega corporation and you are asked if they can automatically call you back later. This way you can do other things instead of waiting with the phone up to your ear. The cut the line passes are essentially you calling the owner of a local company directly because you know them and they roll out the red carpet for you and take care of your issue right away without having to wait on hold.

Making the comparison of WDW virtual queue systems and cut the line products at say Cedar point is like saying:

"Well, when I have a problem with service at Bob's auto repair here in town, I just call Bob directly. He and I went to school together and he always takes care of me right away. If he can do that, I don't understand why when I have a problem with my iPhone, I have to call and be placed in a virtual queue. Why can't Tim Cook just take our calls and fix our problems directly. If Bob's auto repair can do that simply and easily, Apple should be able to do the same with me having to jump through hoops"

Serious question: have you watched the video our Red Panda friend posted in it's entirety?

100% agree, i would add on that other parks can offer a "cut the line" program because they do not have the demand that Disney has. If UO had the crowds that WDW has they would not be able to offer that program, it's all about ride turnover

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

comparing a virtual queue system at WDW to a cut the line system that other parks may employ doesn't make any sense. They are two completely different systems that are trying to do completely different things. A virtual queue system like FP+ or Genie Plus is literally a way to manage demand for a ride / ride capacity so that customers can do other things (like shop or eat) while they wait for their turn to ride instead of standing in a physical queueing area.

Uh I feel like you're going in circles here changing things around with what you're saying.

You think that Volcano Bay isn't doing what you're describing above?

For whatever reason you think Disney is some special place. Sorry it's not. None of their iterations of FP, MP, FP+, Genie+, ILL are somehow all that different than other parks. Sorry Disney isn't some global leader on this stuff. They are just all the same.

Besides your original comment was "manage limited ride capacity" like that is somehow unique to Disney.

Agree to disagree and move on

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

100% agree, i would add on that other parks can offer a "cut the line" program because they do not have the demand that Disney has. If UO had the crowds that WDW has they would not be able to offer that program, it's all about ride turnover

Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know

 

[Aesonclast]

I think I did make it sound confusing.

The often repeated issue from some with FP+ was too many people used it towards the end and so Disney had to do something about that, well they knew with MP the price point worked. They knew that a lot of people would purchase it, they already had data on it.

I agree that they didn't just put out a different product purposefully making it fail. However I don't think they were implementing Genie+/ILL out of the goodness of their hearts to course correct guest experience, there are years worth of data not only in what rides people want, what type of guests go, what they are willing to pay for a get ahead of the line system (MP), etc via MBs and MDE data to go off of. Plus they didn't have Genie+/ILL attached to the AP program either like MP was/was able to.

What I think they may not have thought about was how manipulating just how many people in the parks each day would impact day to day stuff with Genie+/ILL. As in I don't think they thought all the way through how having a cap on one end that they determine on a day to day basis and who is included in that cap (day guests, hotel guests and AP guests where your day and hotel guests logically are likely to have a way different Genie+/ILL purchasing pattern than an AP holder) would mesh with a get ahead of the line system with no cap and a price point they knew people would buy it.



__________
Sorry I thought I hit reply yesterday guess I didn't

If you have EVER tried to purchase something online from Disney... especially when there's one of those rare items available for a short time... it's PAINFULLY obvious that Disney does NOT know how to scale their servers to handle the amount of customers they have.

Genie getting overloaded doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Smugpugmug]

You have laid out the problem perfectly: DEMAND

In a normal supply and demand environment Disney would just keep raising the price until demand pressure equalized. The problem is Disney has so much stinking demand, if they really did that it would be a PR nightmare.

That's what I think too. Not related to a skip the line service but I've been reading that thread about the Top of the World Lounge and there are plenty of people that don't care about Disney's blatant attempt at getting people to spend more money and perfectly willing to cough up $160 for the special lounge events. More power to them - it's not my prerogative to tell people how to spend their money. I'm also not going to touch the direct vs. resale debate with a 10 foot poll. My takeaway from that discussion was that despite the people complaining, there are just as many or even more people willing to pay for it anyway, whether that be through the events or by buying direct DVC points.

Recently that $110,000 per person ABD tour to all of the Disney parks sold out before it went on sale to the general public. We can complain about the price all we want but there is a very specific market that is appealing to.

I think there is a market for a higher priced skip the line service. I've admitted that I would buy it but then I would come less often and do it for 1-2 days. People complain about the $15 Genie+ price and the ILLs every day but others still buy them and ILLs sell out every single day. There is an obvious demand for it.

Also....in your other post was I the Red Panda friend you were referring to lol and yes I think a lot of people need to watch the Defunctland video to really understand why Fastpass+ and Genie+ fundamentally don't work in the Disney parks. He shows straight up data rather than emotion which I found really interesting.

 

[NavyDad]

Uh I feel like you're going in circles here changing things around with what you're saying.

You think that Volcano Bay isn't doing what you're describing above?

For whatever reason you think Disney is some special place. Sorry it's not. None of their iterations of FP, MP, FP+, Genie+, ILL are somehow all that different than other parks. Sorry Disney isn't some global leader on this stuff. They are just all the same.

Besides your original comment was "manage limited ride capacity" like that is somehow unique to Disney.

Agree to disagree and move on

It's not really a matte of agreeing or disagreeing. I've tried to explain to you 5 different ways the differences between a virtual queue and a head of the line pass. They work completely different and they are trying to do completely different things. Comparing them just doesn't make any sense.

I'd suggest you watch the video our Red Panda friend has posted to get a better understanding.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

If you have EVER tried to purchase something online from Disney... especially when there's one of those rare items available for a short time... it's PAINFULLY obvious that Disney does NOT know how to scale their servers to handle the amount of customers they have.

Genie getting overloaded doesn't surprise me in the least.

Oh that was abundantly clear just using their normal website lol and has for years. Their IT is some of the worst in all honesty IME.

I've stayed away from purchasing a lot from Disney's website although I have a time or two. There's a lot of complaints over the years especially what you're talking about with special edition items.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

really understand why Fastpass+ and Genie+ fundamentally don't work in the Disney parks.

That's why we're saying they should have done something else instead. Only when the talks of which worked better do some discuss FP+ vs Genie+. I've been personally clear in many threads they shouldn't be using what they are using.

 

[Aesonclast]

Oh that was abundantly clear just using their normal website lol and has for years. Their IT is some of the worst in all honesty IME.

I've stayed away from purchasing a lot from Disney's website although I have a time or two. There's a lot of complaints over the years especially what you're talking about with special edition items.

I wanted to get the Star Wars "key" -- huge rush when it came out... website was borked... gave up. Wandering around a Disney store ... months later? There it was -- discounted to sell some shirts.

 

[NavyDad]

That's what I think too. Not related to a skip the line service but I've been reading that thread about the Top of the World Lounge and there are plenty of people that don't care about Disney's blatant attempt at getting people to spend more money and perfectly willing to cough up $160 for the special lounge events. More power to them - it's not my prerogative to tell people how to spend their money. I'm also not going to touch the direct vs. resale debate with a 10 foot poll. My takeaway from that discussion was that despite the people complaining, there are just as many or even more people willing to pay for it anyway, whether that be through the events or by buying direct DVC points.

Recently that $110,000 per person ABD tour to all of the Disney parks sold out before it went on sale to the general public. We can complain about the price all we want but there is a very specific market that is appealing to.

I think there is a market for a higher priced skip the line service. I've admitted that I would buy it but then I would come less often and do it for 1-2 days. People complain about the $15 Genie+ price and the ILLs every day but others still buy them and ILLs sell out every single day. There is an obvious demand for it.

Also....in your other post was I the Red Panda friend you were referring to lol and yes I think a lot of people need to watch the Defunctland video to really understand why Fastpass+ and Genie+ fundamentally don't work in the Disney parks. He shows straight up data rather than emotion which I found really interesting.

There should be two rules regarding every thread that talks about Genie Plus and FP+

1. The video should be posted on every page.
2. Each person should have to watch the video before they can post.

 

[Smugpugmug]

That's why we're saying they should have done something else instead. Only when the talks of which worked better do some discuss FP+ vs Genie+. I've been personally clear in many threads they shouldn't be using what they are using.

Oh yeah I agree with you. Genie+ is not working in it's current form (a lot of that has to do with the price) but the system itself is apart of why it's not working.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Just wanted to add something about demand and a higher skip the line service. My family and I are planning a Christmas trip in Orlando and we are doing a day at Universal. We bought our tickets and we wanted to add Express, but the one time use pass is $200 per person and the unlimited is $250. The unlimited is actually sold out on our day on Undercovertourist due to that many people buying it. It's not Disney but there is an obvious demand for a service like this at other parks especially around the holidays.

I think around Christmas and other busy holidays Disney could get away with selling a $200 skip the line pass. If people actually bought the unlimited one at Universal without doing the hotel trick (we looked into it and a room at Royal Pacific is more expensive than to buy the passes outright), then I think there is enough demand for Disney to do the same. They're not the same parks sure but still. People actually paid $250 per person for an unlimited pass on Undercovertourist.

 

[NavyDad]

That's why we're saying they should have done something else instead. Only when the talks of which worked better do some discuss FP+ vs Genie+. I've been personally clear in many threads they shouldn't be using what they are using.

It's like when we were all in school and they taught us to explore the who, what, when, where, why and how of every question.

You know you don't like the who, what, where and when but you don't have a full understanding of the how and they why those systems are not working or you just refuse to accept them. The suggestions you make would also not work for some of the same 'how" and "why" reasons and some completely different reasons.

There are only two possible ways to improve the overall fundamentals of the system

1. Build more capacity (a lot more capacity) as many have suggested here for years. (that could come with it's own problems)
2. Artificially lower demand either by making it expensive enough that demand equalizes with supply, or set hard daily use caps as some have suggested.

 

[0FF TO NEVERLAND]

Just wanted to add something about demand and a higher skip the line service. My family and I are planning a Christmas trip in Orlando and we are doing a day at Universal. We bought our tickets and we wanted to add Express, but the one time use pass is $200 per person and the unlimited is $250. The unlimited is actually sold out on our day on Undercovertourist due to that many people buying it. It's not Disney but there is an obvious demand for a service like this at other parks especially around the holidays.

I think around Christmas and other busy holidays Disney could get away with selling a $200 skip the line pass. If people actually bought the unlimited one at Universal without doing the hotel trick (we looked into it and a room at Royal Pacific is more expensive than to buy the passes outright), then I think there is enough demand for Disney to do the same. They're not the same parks sure but still. People actually paid $250 per person for an unlimited pass on Undercovertourist.

Not sure your date but unlimited is available every date in December at universals website

 

[Smugpugmug]

Not sure your date but unlimited is available every date in December at universals website

I saw that too. I was just shocked that it was sold out on Undercovertourist. We're still deciding what to do. Even with a hotel stay buying them on their own is cheaper so that won't work unfortunately.