No the Magic isn’t gone but it’s at 25%

[mercuryvenus]

You're confusing the argument. It's not the IP part it's how it was done in the beginning and even as late at 10+ years or so. What people feel now (and this is me having read enough comments on it) is it feels lazy. It's not the IP, it's what they've done with it.

Take Frozen, yes it's an IP, but Maelstrom was already themed to Norway area, they rethemed it with an IP they had, sure Frozen is great and all but it can easily feel like they took a route of "hey this made a ton of money let's just put it in the park" whereas before long ago you might have felt differently.

You focus on technology but there's a lot more to a ride than just that and that usually is not what people mean when they say it's doesn't feel original, they mean original stories. Avatar is a working relationship with James Cameron so it's not original stories. Star Wars is not an IP they came up with, they purchased it, Kylo Ren may be new but it's not what started the franchise, even Toy Story is from Pixar as part of a collab with Disney and Disney didn't even own Pixar until mid-2000s. These aren't poor attractions by any means but they are not the same as taking Sleeping Beauty from Grimm tales, creating your own story and building a castle from your story and then making a movie off of that. Or having Pirates, creating a ride then an entire franchise off of that years and years later I might add (although to be fair people were torn on the additions of the movie franchise though I think they kept it to a minimum such that it was not off putting).

I'm just repeating what I've seen, and it was in response to your critique of Universal. WDW did use to be all about originality and imagination and for some fans they feel like that's slipping away in favor of what feels to them more cheap moves.

I think you’re really stretching when you say that Disney did a lot more with Sleeping Beauty than they‘ve done with Star Wars. Walt Disney basically just lifted Sleeping Beauty from Grimm and removed some of the scarier parts from it to make it more palatable for kids. He did the same thing with virtually every single feature film he was involved with. Let’s take a look at the feature films he oversaw:

Snow White — adapted from Grimm
Pinocchio — lifted from a story by Carlo Collodi
Fantasia — a story by Goethe
Dumbo — a story by Helen Aberson
Bambi -- a story by Felix Salten
Ichabod and Mr. Toad — Wind in the Willows & Legend of Sleepy Hollow
Cinderella — story by Charles Perrault
Alice in Wonderland — Lewis Carroll
Peter Pan — JM Barrie
Lady and the Tramp — Ward Greene
Sleeping Beauty — Charles Perrault story and Grimm
101 Dalmatians — Dodie Smith
Sword and the Stone — TH White
Jungle Book — Rudyard Kipling

Walt Disney purchased existing stories and lightly adapted them.

Moana was essentially original, with elements of mythology. Same thing with Encanto and Raya and the Last Dragon.

So if the argument is around original stories, one could say that Disney has had MORE original stories lately than Walt Disney ever did.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think you’re really stretching when you say that Disney did a lot more with Sleeping Beauty than they‘ve done with Star Wars. Walt Disney basically just lifted Sleeping Beauty from Grimm and removed some of the scarier parts from it to make it more palatable for kids. He did the same thing with virtually every single feature film he was involved with.

The Frozen ride was a revamp of Maelstrom, but it’s essentially an original story (with elements of mythology in it). Moana was essentially original, with elements of mythology. Same thing with Encanto.

So if the argument is around original stories, one could say that Disney has had MORE original stories lately than Walt Disney ever did.

I'm not sure this is a debate I wish to continue. I'm repeating what I'm hearing from many people across a few forums and understanding at least how people might feel this way.

As far as Moana..yes we're getting a water walk through..something people question is a dumb move or not because it's a walk through only. I'm sure it will look great but then again the jab there would be did Disney do this only because it's Moana (a successful enough film).

The topic of discussion is what they do with IP nowadays at the parks vs how it felt in the past. If that's how people feel that's how people feel. And the conversation only got started because you felt Universal was hodgepodged. I just pointed out people feel this way and lack of cohesion and originality for Disney too. YMMV.

 

[mercuryvenus]

I'm not sure this is a debate I wish to continue. I'm repeating what I'm hearing from many people across a few forums and understanding at least how people might feel this way.

As far as Moana..yes we're getting a water walk through..something people question is a dumb move or not because it's a walk through only. I'm sure it will look great but then again the jab there would be did Disney do this only because it's Moana (a successful enough film).

The topic of discussion is what they do with IP nowadays at the parks vs how it felt in the past. If that's how people feel that's how people feel. And the conversation only got started because you felt Universal was hodgepodged. I just pointed out people feel this way and lack of cohesion and originality for Disney too. YMMV.

Couldn’t you easily have said that Walt Disney only made Mad Tea Party because Alice in Wonderland was a popular film? Or Peter Pan’s Flight for the exact same reason? Same argument could be made for Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride. 95% of Disneyland’s original attractions were based on Disney feature films that had been popular. I just don’t get how that’s any different than Disney making a Frozen ride.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I do think DHS has a good number of shows that take people away from rides: Beauty and the Beast, Frozen singalong, Indiana Jones, MuppetVision …

Indy does eat up people true, muppet vision not enough, I didn't see people doing Beauty and the Beast when I was there. Frozen singalong was really funny when we saw in 2017 but I've heard repeated complaints about not feeling like the humor is there as much as it was in the past, feeling like they took some parts out. Indy when we saw it was fully full so I'm sure that helped some of the other attractions out but the others if people were going to them they sure weren't in enough numbers to make much of a dent on Rise, Minnie and Mickey's although I know with ToT they only have one side running you can't really fairly compare that. On the other hand Star Tours was normally 5-15mins. We did watch Lightning McQueen but that was only 1/4th filled on a busy day in the middle of the day when you'd assume people were seeking cool place to sit.

Fantasmic! is still not running and that would be great for nighttime

 

[mercuryvenus]

Indy does eat up people true, muppet vision not enough, I didn't see people doing Beauty and the Beast when I was there. Frozen singalong was really funny when we saw in 2017 but I've heard repeated complaints about not feeling like the humor is there as much as it was in the past, feeling like they took some parts out. Indy when we saw it was fully full so I'm sure that helped some of the other attractions out but the others if people were going to them they sure weren't in enough numbers to make much of a dent on Rise, Minnie and Mickey's although I know with ToT they only have one side running you can't really fairly compare that. On the other hand Star Tours was normally 5-15mins. We did watch Lightning McQueen but that was only 1/4th filled on a busy day in the middle of the day when you'd assume people were seeking cool place to sit.

Fantasmic! is still not running and that would be great for nighttime

I’ve never been to a WDW show that wasn’t full. That includes Beauty and the Beast and MuppetVision. Lightning McQueen might be the exception, as we‘ve been to DHS easily 5-6 times in the last couple of years and haven’t gone to it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Couldn’t you easily have said that Walt Disney only made Mad Tea Party because Alice in Wonderland was a popular film? Or Peter Pan’s Flight for the exact same reason? Same argument could be made for Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride. 95% of Disneyland’s original attractions were based on Disney feature films that had been popular. I just don’t get how that’s any different than Disney making a Frozen ride.

I'm sorry I just don't know how else to explain it, you're very focused on something that is not what I'm talking about. It's not the IP itself, for the 3rd or 4th time, it's what they do with it. So bowing out of that debate.

 

[mercuryvenus]

I'm sorry I just don't know how else to explain it, you're very focused on something that is not what I'm talking about. It's not the IP itself, for the 3rd or 4th time, it's what they do with it. So bowing out of that debate.

I’m specifically addressing what they do with the IP in the parks. Not sure where the disconnect is.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I’ve never been to a WDW show that wasn’t full. That includes Beauty and the Beast and MuppetVision.

Well they weren't when we were there and the crowds were there enough. I suspect they weren't getting the draw, they weren't absorbing the crowds, Indy was though.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Indy does eat up people true, muppet vision not enough, I didn't see people doing Beauty and the Beast when I was there. Frozen singalong was really funny when we saw in 2017 but I've heard repeated complaints about not feeling like the humor is there as much as it was in the past, feeling like they took some parts out. Indy when we saw it was fully full so I'm sure that helped some of the other attractions out but the others if people were going to them they sure weren't in enough numbers to make much of a dent on Rise, Minnie and Mickey's although I know with ToT they only have one side running you can't really fairly compare that. On the other hand Star Tours was normally 5-15mins. We did watch Lightning McQueen but that was only 1/4th filled on a busy day in the middle of the day when you'd assume people were seeking cool place to sit.

Fantasmic! is still not running and that would be great for nighttime

I also think that for a lot of people, they don't care about shows and only want to experience attractions. On my trip in May, my friend that was with us did not care about any of the Hollywood Studios shows and exclusively wanted to go on rides. She is also not a frequent visitor and her last trip was in 2016. I bet there are a decent amount of people that feel the same way as my friend does. I think it doesn't help that some of these shows are super old and IMO could use a refresh (looking at Beauty and the Beast specifically, not so much Indy. That show is fine).

I still think even with shows Hollywood needs more...stuff. Doesn't have to be an E-ticket. I'll take a new ride that's smaller in scale but not a carnival style ride like the ones they have at Pixar Pier in California Adventure. Totally agree that Fantasmic! returning would help with the crowds.

 

[mercuryvenus]

I also think that for a lot of people, they don't care about shows and only want to experience attractions. On my trip in May, my friend that was with us did not care about any of the Hollywood Studios shows and exclusively wanted to go on rides. She is also not a frequent visitor and her last trip was in 2016. I bet there are a decent amount of people that feel the same way as my friend does. I think it doesn't help that some of these shows are super old and IMO could use a refresh (looking at Beauty and the Beast specifically, not so much Indy. That show is fine).

I still think even with shows Hollywood needs more...stuff. Doesn't have to be an E-ticket. I'll take a new ride that's smaller in scale but not a carnival style ride like the ones they have at Pixar Pier in California Adventure. Totally agree that Fantasmic! returning would help with the crowds.

I mean, Fantasmic is going to return this year. Disney has invested a huge amount of money in DHS in the last few years. I’m not sure you’re going to see substantially more investment in the near future.

 

[Mango7100]

This is what seems so perplexing to me. We were there during Spring Break and were able to stack so many rides at DHS and MK it was crazy. I have looked at thrill data almost every day since we got back and I don't understand what people are doing that they can only ride a few rides at MK or DHS. Looking at Memorial Day weekend for example, the data shows that RotR, SDD and ToT all sold out of capacity in the first couple of hours. RotR looks like it sold out first but still had availability for about an hour after park open so you could either try to RD it or just buy the $ILL. SDD and ToT showed availability to around 10 or 10:30 so yo may have to make a choice on those two. Most of the other rides showed available capacity will into the day with the rest of the big attractions showing availability all the way into the evening hours.

Again - just doesn't make a lot of sense how some people are experiencing such wildly different scenarios especially when you look at the data.

I agree. We went over Spring Break (which was also the week of Orange and Osceola Spring Break so very crowded) and Easter. We would get 7-9 LL at MK and did this 3-4 times as well as stacked HS 2-3 evenings with 4 LLs ready before we entered the park. And I wasn’t sitting on the phone all day—maybe 5 minutes for each selection max if I didn’t see anything good at first. It’s just so odd how widely different peoples experiences are.

 

[lugnut33]

As well as capping sales will mean that not everyone will be able to buy it anymore thus making no different then every other park out there.

I don't think there's any way they "cap sales". That's not how Disney operates and Bob Chapek would likely pass out if the heard that's what they were going to do. The goal might just be to make it so difficult more people get forced out of the system. However, if you're a family trying to get the most bank for the buck on a 4 day vacation, you gotta play the Genie game.

 

[Smugpugmug]

I mean, Fantasmic is going to return this year. Disney has invested a huge amount of money in DHS in the last few years. I’m not sure you’re going to see substantially more investment in the near future.

I'm aware they're not. I just think they need to as Hollywood Studios suffers greatly with how little rides it has at the moment. Same with Animal Kingdom.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I bet there are a decent amount of people that feel the same way as my friend does. I think it doesn't help that some of these shows are super old and IMO could use a refresh (looking at Beauty and the Beast specifically, not so much Indy. That show is fine).

I agree on both things, they seemed to have split the park into rides and then shows so unless you're a mixture of both people you're either going to be more for the shows and less the rides (except nowadays maybe Toy Story) or you're going to be less of the shows and more of the rides. I think Indy updated their show recently enough.

I'll also mention I think that Indy gets people because of what type of show it is, it appeals enough to more ages although the franchise is not current explosions always get people lol. Which brings me to missing Lights, Motor, Action! It was a show but it was a high octane (pun intended) show that had fast cars, crazy stunts, and explosions and people loved it. Backlot tour also took more older crowd and now that's gone

I think right now for the most part it's hard to get those old enough to want to watch some of the other shows. They skew a bit young for the general audience.

DHS just has this weird identity crisis with wanting to be stuck in the old with the old shows not appealing to more current audiences and then these rides that just can't handle enough people on their own. I love the theming of old hollywood and stuff so it's not that I want DHS to just turn away from that past but what they have now with what they removed in the past it's just gotten worse with what they've built in its place on this unbalanced scale, it's why it receives this criticism of "not enough to do" time and time again.

 

[john7994]

I agree. We went over Spring Break (which was also the week of Orange and Osceola Spring Break so very crowded) and Easter. We would get 7-9 LL at MK and did this 3-4 times as well as stacked HS 2-3 evenings with 4 LLs ready before we entered the park. And I wasn’t sitting on the phone all day—maybe 5 minutes for each selection max if I didn’t see anything good at first. It’s just so odd how widely different peoples experiences are.

Was talking to a friend of mine and they haven't even been to WDW since it reopened but they were convinced that Genie+ was a disaster and hadn't even used it yet ...

 

[john7994]

I'm aware they're not. I just think they need to as Hollywood Studios suffers greatly with how little rides it has at the moment. Same with Animal Kingdom.

Suffering in what way? - Animal Kingdom actually retains much of it's charm precisely because it is not ride oriented. I think this is part of the problem - if one is expecting every park to have a bunch of rides - you could be disappointed. But, I dont think it suffers as a result of it. I think Hollywood Studios is a whole other discussion, which I have already commented on.

 

[Smugpugmug]

I agree on both things, they seemed to have split the park into rides and then shows so unless you're a mixture of both people you're either going to be more for the shows and less the rides (except nowadays maybe Toy Story) or you're going to be less of the shows and more of the rides. I think Indy updated their show recently enough.

I'll also mention I think that Indy gets people because of what type of show it is, it appeals enough to more ages although the franchise is not current explosions always get people lol. Which brings me to missing Lights, Motor, Action! It was a show but it was a high octane (pun intended) show that had fast cars, crazy stunts, and explosions and people loved it. Backlot tour also took more older crowd and now that's gone

I think right now for the most part it's hard to get those old enough to want to watch some of the other shows. They skew a bit young for the general audience.

DHS just has this weird identity crisis with wanting to be stuck in the old with the old shows not appealing to more current audiences and then these rides that just can't handle enough people on their own. I love the theming of old hollywood and stuff so it's not that I want DHS to just turn away from that past but what they have now with what they removed in the past it's just gotten worse with what they've built in its place on this unbalanced scale, it's why it receives this criticism of "not enough to do" time and time again.

I agree overall. I haven't watched the Beauty and the Beast show in years because I'm not a big fan of it and it feels outdated. I think out of all the shows, this one could use an update or even a new show altogether.

I remember loving the Backlot Tour as a kid. It was a fun and unique experience that I do miss. I remember Lights Motor Action being SO dreadfully hot. Whoever thought it was a good idea to have those seats in the direct Florida sun should be fired LOL I'm kidding.

I hate admitting that even after all these new additions, there's still not enough to do but that's how I feel. The rides they have built having low capacity doesn't help IMO.

Suffering in what way? - Animal Kingdom actually retains much of it's charm precisely because it is not ride oriented. I think this is part of the problem - if one is expecting every park to have a bunch of rides - you could be disappointed. But, I dont think it suffers as a result of it. I think Hollywood Studios is a whole other discussion, which I have already commented on.

Okay so in general I agree. Animal Kingdom has a way less hectic atmosphere that I really love. It makes the park unique and I love visiting. However, I still think the lack of rides is what is holding it back. Especially since instead of adding a ride, Disney actually got rid of one (Primeval Whirl). I think AK straight up needs more to do. Dinoland in particular could use a major retheme or something new added to it. I did see rumors that Disney is going to announce something new to Animal Kingdom, so I'm hoping that ends up being true. Pandora brought new life to the park in a good way and I would be up for another new attraction.

 

[john7994]

Okay so in general I agree. Animal Kingdom has a way less hectic atmosphere that I really love. It makes the park unique and I love visiting. However, I still think the lack of rides is what is holding it back. Especially since instead of adding a ride, Disney actually got rid of one (Primeval Whirl). I think AK straight up needs more to do. Dinoland in particular could use a major retheme or something new added to it. I did see rumors that Disney is going to announce something new to Animal Kingdom, so I'm hoping that ends up being true. Pandora brought new life to the park in a good way and I would be up for another new attraction.

I have no good answer now nor have I ever had one on Dinoland - personally and this may be unpopular - but it needs to be "reimagined" lol.

Does AK need more to do or rides, only if the problem your solving is crowd spread - a compelling argument to be sure - but I actually like the way it is (aside from Dinoland). For what it is, and I think it's heavily underrated, it has a good mix of the right things rides, conservational education, entertainment, food, and even a petting zoo for goodness sake.

More of a good thing seems logical - but my hope is they keep a good balance here. And, I get where people may not be jazzed to spend big bucks at a high-end "zoo". Again, probably a compelling argument to be had. We'll see what the announcement brings.

 

[mercuryvenus]

I'm aware they're not. I just think they need to as Hollywood Studios suffers greatly with how little rides it has at the moment. Same with Animal Kingdom.

I mean, I see what you’re saying. I think DHS suffers at the moment because it’s a small park. They can only fit so much into it. And they put a lot of really popular rides into it. Right now, by my count, there are only 9 rides. There are 6 shows that theoretically have decent capacity, but they’re not updated.

I think the solution is not necessarily more rides, but newer shows. I know they closed the Ariel show, so maybe something new there? I also think redoing Launch Bay is an obvious one.

Bringing back Fantasmic will help hugely with the nighttime crowds. But ultimately, I think the solution for capacity management at DHS is to revamp the older shows.

And as for AK: I think they need something new to draw crowds away from the other parks and into AK. Redoing Dinoland is the obvious play, although I don’t know what they’d put there. Maybe something around Antonio‘s room in Encanto, since it’s animal-centric, but that’s not enough to support an entire section of a park.

 

[john7994]

I mean, I see what you’re saying. I think DHS suffers at the moment because it’s a small park. They can only fit so much into it. And they put a lot of really popular rides into it. Right now, by my count, there are only 9 rides. There are 6 shows that theoretically have decent capacity, but they’re not updated.

I think the solution is not necessarily more rides, but newer shows. I know they closed the Ariel show, so maybe something new there? I also think redoing Launch Bay is an obvious one.

Bringing back Fantasmic will help hugely with the nighttime crowds. But ultimately, I think the solution for capacity management at DHS is to revamp the older shows.

And as for AK: I think they need something new to draw crowds away from the other parks and into AK. Redoing Dinoland is the obvious play, although I don’t know what they’d put there. Maybe something around Antonio‘s room in Encanto, since it’s animal-centric, but that’s not enough to support an entire section of a park.

IP Related - Tarzan or Jungle Book perhaps?