No more Prince or Princesses

[Moliphino]

Exactly, and everyone seems to only want it their own way, which is why a hard-and-fast rule isn't very productive. It's a conversation, and it doesn't have to be an adversarial one unless we make it such.



I actually dislike, "dreamers of all ages" because it presumes that everyone present is a "dreamer." It's kind of trite. I don't really think of myself as such. I am all for a more inclusive greeting, but it could be worded better. They could just say "Good evening, everyone."

"Good evening. On behalf of Walt Disney World — the place where dreams come true — we welcome all of you to Epcot, and World Showcase. We’re gathered here tonight, around the fire — as people of all lands have gathered for thousands and thousands of years before us — to share the light, and to share a story. An amazing story as old as time itself, but still being written. And though each of us has our own individual stories to tell, a true adventure emerges when we bring them all together as one. We hope you enjoy our story tonight: Reflections of Earth."

Perfection.

 

[starlite_]

I actually dislike, "dreamers of all ages" because it presumes that everyone present is a "dreamer." It's kind of trite. I don't really think of myself as such. I am all for a more inclusive greeting, but it could be worded better. They could just say "Good evening, everyone."

If you don't like being called something as innocent as "dreamer" then why do you want kids to laugh off being misgendered?? Do you really not see the issue??

Well, that isn't at all what I am "insisting" - in fact I am not insisting on anything, but as the originator of the "laugh it off" quote, I feel that it is being extremely reductively interpreted. I do understand that for some people it is very hurtful to be misgendered, but my question is why does it have to be? I posit that it is a far greater form of empowerment to refuse to yeild power to words - to not let everything be a slight, especially when it is not intended as such - and when it is to not care what the small-minded people think. I do also understand that this approach doesn't work for anyone, but I do think it's a perfectly valid tactic.

And again, I do ask WHY does it hurt so much? I believe that the importance we place on such things and our reactions are learned. I am offering a different way to think about it. I also absolutely agree that being more inclusive and erring on the side of caution when unsure is great, but I also think that in most cases a reasonanble person can figure it out and we don't need across-the-board rules to govern interactions.

You answered your first question there. Why do you want the most vulnerable of our population to laugh it off because a lot of us can?

And I'm not a trans child or gender non-conforming person, I cannot answer the second one from experience nor do I want to try. Everything I've said comes from what I've read and accounts of ppl who do get hurt by being misgendered, for many dif reasons. If you are truly interested in why it hurts ppl then I suggest you research their points of view and read their own words about it. Do the work instead of hoping someone can give you a happy simple neutral answer. It is neither a neutral issue or a simple one.

 

[SkipperDave]

I’m not even remotely politically correct. I just don’t dig the idea of purposely calling someone something they don’t wish to be called.

That's literally all political correctness is!

Kudos to you for respecting people.

But it sucks that the culture is so toxic that people scream about "hating political correctness!!!!" when all it boils down to is the simple respect and courtesy that you just summarized.

 

[BrianL]

"Good evening. On behalf of Walt Disney World — the place where dreams come true — we welcome all of you to Epcot, and World Showcase. We’re gathered here tonight, around the fire — as people of all lands have gathered for thousands and thousands of years before us — to share the light, and to share a story. An amazing story as old as time itself, but still being written. And though each of us has our own individual stories to tell, a true adventure emerges when we bring them all together as one. We hope you enjoy our story tonight: Reflections of Earth."

Perfection.

Yup - that I totally dig! But...I'm sure that someone somewhere isn't happy with it either, which is kinda proven in this thread.

 

[szabl]

That's literally all political correctness is!

Kudos to you for respecting people.

But it sucks that the culture is so toxic that people scream about "hating political correctness!!!!" when all it boils down to is the simple respect and courtesy that you just summarized.

There was a great chrome extension a few years back that replaced the phrase “political correctness” with “treating people with respect” and sheesh it really got the point across well.

 

[BrianL]

If you don't like being called something as innocent as "dreamer" then why do you want kids to laugh off being misgendered?? Do you really not see the issue??


You answered your first question there. Why do you want the most vulnerable of our population to laugh it off because a lot of us can?

And I'm not a trans child or gender non-conforming person, I cannot answer the second one from experience nor do I want to try. Everything I've said comes from what I've read and accounts of ppl who do get hurt by being misgendered, for many dif reasons. If you are truly interested in why it hurts ppl then I suggest you research their points of view and read their own words about it. Do the work instead of hoping someone can give you a happy simple neutral answer. It is neither a neutral issue or a simple one.

Well,, to the "dreamer" thing I don't really care. It doesn't "hurt" me - I just think it sounds silly. I am NOT rallying a movement to change it or anything. My point was that while some think that it is something that "everyone" should like, even that isn't. NOTHING will be something that everyone will like.

Which is my point. NOTHING will ever be 100% perfect for everyone. Every decision they make about it will be offputting to someone. It never ends and there is no "winning" here. But I do think that reasonable people can be reasonble about it. The vast majority of people aren't looking to offend - they want to be kind and sensitive to others and they will be if given a chance. I'm not saying that everyone "has to" laugh it off - I am saying that that is one way to diffuse the power of the offending words. It is a suggestion, not a proscription. Some can't or don't want to do that? That's totally fair. But some of the ways the people do react to such is counter-productive. I'm just saying it is something that can be handled by well-meaning people if they are just allowed to do so.

 

[SkipperDave]

Speaking from a CMs point of view:

It is actually a bit of a hassle/burden/stressor to try to easily and quickly address a large group of people in a friendly, inclusive and acceptable catch-all term.

One of the things CMs are required to do is be efficient. Move lines along. Usher people from place to place. Give instructions quickly and clearly.

And using "friends" is an easy, convenient, can't-miss term that not only expresses Disney's trademark friendliness but is also versatile enough to use in literally any and every interaction.

So for adults who are bristling at the term:

Dear god, stop.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

I just wasn’t aware that something so trival

Speaking from a CMs point of view:

It is actually a bit of a hassle/burden/stressor to try to easily and quickly address a large group of people in a friendly, inclusive and acceptable catch-all term.

One of the things CMs are required to do is be efficient. Move lines along. Usher people from place to place. Give instructions quickly and clearly.

And using "friends" is an easy, convenient, can't-miss term that not only expresses Disney's trademark friendliness but is also versatile enough to use in literally any and every interaction.

So for adults who are bristling at the term:

Dear god, stop.

Never before have I ever seen normal people get upset over being called friend, it’s disturbing.

 

[Her Dotness]

And using "friends" is an easy, convenient, can't-miss term that not only expresses Disney's trademark friendliness but is also versatile enough to use in literally any and every interaction.

Putting another spin on the face character self-ID, "I'm a friend of <character>.": I rather like "friend of Disney."

In that sense, we actually are all friends.

 

[SkipperDave]

Putting another spin on the face character self-ID, "I'm a friend of <character>.": I rather like "friend of Disney."

In that sense, we actually are all friends.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking that cast members call you that?

 

[Her Dotness]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking that cast members call you that?

Not that specifically necessarily, but if they did, I'd certainly not mind. "Friend" would do.

I meant it more in terms of thinking of myself as "A friend of Disney."

The world might be a nicer place if we thought of other people as potential friends, though we may not consider everyone we encounter a personal friend.

 

[lotsohugginbear]

I'm a public school teacher. We did professional development a few years back on the use of non gender-specifc terminology. Instead of saying "boys and girls", we might use "class, students, group" etc.
Pure and simple: this is about respect.
My child is non binary. While in WDW in June, we were ma'amed
and ladied constantly. I wrote to guest relations about using non gender-specific greetings.

 

[szabl]

I'm a public school teacher. We did professional development a few years back on the use of non gender-specifc terminology. Instead of saying "boys and girls", we might use "class, students, group" etc.
Pure and simple: this is about respect.
My child is non binary. While in WDW in June, we were ma'amed
and ladied constantly. I wrote to guest relations about using non gender-specific greetings.

My sons school does this with referring to the kid’s grown ups instead of their parents and I LOVE it. So many of them live with grandparents, other relatives, foster families, etc. when I heard the switch I thought it was great.

 

[Her Dotness]

My sons school does this with referring to the kid’s grown ups instead of their parents and I LOVE it. So many of them live with grandparents, other relatives, foster families, etc. when I heard the switch I thought it was great.

Hmmm, what's used for middle school and high school students' "adults-at-home"? Do you know?

"Grownups" seems a bit too little-kid for older students, a number of whom likely consider themselves grownups already and some legally are.

 

[leebee]

It's annoying when a total stranger calls me "friend." We aren't friends, I don't even KNOW you.

 

[SkipperDave]

It's annoying when a total stranger calls me "friend." We aren't friends, I don't even KNOW you.

Well, you won't be making any friends with that attitude.

 

[szabl]

Hmmm, what's used for middle school and high school students' "adults-at-home"? Do you know?

"Grownups" seems a bit too little-kid for older students, a number of whom likely consider themselves grownups already and some legally are.

I’ve heard it interchangeably with “your adult” so I’m assuming they use that for the older kids!

 

[midwestdee]

I don't know. It feels vaguely "Soviet" for strangers to call each other "friend." It is a term that implies both parties are equal, which was the point of folks addressing each other as "comrade."

while prince or princess elevates the recipient. Calling someone a guest also elevates them. Even "sir" or "madam" is an inherently respectful way to address someone.

Changing the words we are allowed to use is somewhat Orwelean. It's Newspeak. I hope we are not all too far gone to at least acknowledge that there are elements of 1984 in all of this. George Orwell intended it to be a cautionary tale, and here we are. Sorry, but I'm not going to pretend I cannot see the obvious.

When I hear someone calling another “friend”, I think of Quakers! I can’t imagine your mindset that makes you think of Soviets, but whatever.

 

[whiteness]

When I hear someone calling another “friend”, I think of Quakers! I can’t imagine your mindset that makes you think of Soviets, but whatever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comrade

In the early years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks used Tovarisch when addressing or referring to people assumed sympathetic to the revolution and to the Soviet state, such as members of the Communist party (and originally of other pro-revolution leftist formations such as the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries) and people from the "working masses". The more neutral republican form of address would translate as Citizen. Accordingly, supporters of the White movement in the Russian Civil War would use Tovarisch mockingly as a derogatory term for their enemies – although at the same time, the various socialist anti-Bolshevik forces such as the Socialist Revolutionary Party and the Mensheviks also used Tovarisch among themselves.[citation needed]

By the mid-1920s, the form of address Tovarisch became so commonplace in the Soviet Union that it was used indiscriminately in essentially the same way as terms like "Mister" and "Sir" are employed in English. That use persisted until the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Still, the original meaning partly re-surfaced in some contexts: criminals and suspects were only addressed as "citizens" and not as tovarischi, and expressly refusing to address someone as tovarisch would generally be perceived as a hostile act or, in Stalinist times, even as an accusation of being "Anti-Soviet".[9]

 

[midwestdee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comrade

Just for future reference Wikipedia is not the best source of information. People literally go in and “edit” history. I am NOT saying this is the case in your post, just be aware of this.