No Debates About The Illegal Immigrants Issue?

[LakeAriel]

Well, it seems, at least here on the DIS, that the debate over illegal immigration has reached a stalemate. I'm just glad that the members of Congress have decided to take an honest look at our immigration policy, which works for no one right now, and make the proper reforms to the law. I, for one, am on the side of the Kennedy-McCain Bill that just passed the Senate Judiciary Committee, and hope that after some serious wrangling, America can come up with a compassionate policy that also secures our borders.

Well said!

 

[LakeAriel]

You do know that the earlier Americans came from Europe originally, don't you?

http://www.mnc.net/norway/ericson.htm

 

[disneyaggie]

First of all you are not the OP I responded to. Read her post. It was rascist. I am not saying illegal immigration is not a problem. It is a huge problem especially for those in border states. I grew up the the Bronx NY. Do you think we didn't have huge immigration problems in the 60's and 70's? And still going strong? I agree the borders need to be closed and should have been a long time ago. I also think if you are here illegally you need to go back and try to enter legally. I just think that Holy Rollers quoting the Bible out of one side of their mouth and saying Hispanics are all here for handouts sullies the argument. The Jesus I believe in had dark skin and loves all children not just those that look like me.

I take it back. Your post was rascist also. Leeches?

Until you learn how to fully comprehend what you read, I don't think you will fully grasp what myself and others are trying to say. Oh well.

Oh, and racist, no. Leeches (again many, not all), yes!

 

[bsnyder]

[/B]
Well said!

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[bsnyder]

03/28 : Student protest

Whittier area students from Pioneer, California and Whittier high schools walked out of classes to protest the proposed federal immigration bill March 27, 2006. The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High. (Leo Jarzomb/Staff photo)

 

[In a hurry]

http://www.mnc.net/norway/ericson.htm

OK, think back before Erickson. The original, first people on this continent came across from Siberia to Alaska. The did not spontaneously evolve here in the Americas.

 

[CheshireVal]

First of all you are not the OP I responded to. Read her post. It was rascist. I am not saying illegal immigration is not a problem. It is a huge problem especially for those in border states. I grew up the the Bronx NY. Do you think we didn't have huge immigration problems in the 60's and 70's? And still going strong? I agree the borders need to be closed and should have been a long time ago. I also think if you are here illegally you need to go back and try to enter legally. I just think that Holy Rollers quoting the Bible out of one side of their mouth and saying Hispanics are all here for handouts sullies the argument. The Jesus I believe in had dark skin and loves all children not just those that look like me.

I take it back. Your post was rascist also. Leeches?

You really shouldn't be throwing that racist word around so impulsively. It's actually pretty insulting, and you're adding nothing to this argument.

If you can show me one person on this thread who said that all mexicans are looking for handouts, then you might have a point. However, I think you'll find that the majority of people are saying that "illegal immigrants" are looking for handouts. Which, depending on how you define handouts, is true. They're here taking advantage of our tax dollars and giving nothing back. That's a handout.

 

[Robinrs]

When you paint all hispanics with the same brush (handouts, food stamps, SUV's) thats rascism.

Is being hispanic a race???

Painting with the same brush is PREJUDICE, not racism.

I've experienced racism from Hispanics and others but the racism I experience from them leaves me with a HUGE "***"????!!!

 

[disneyaggie]

03/28 : Student protest

Whittier area students from Pioneer, California and Whittier high schools walked out of classes to protest the proposed federal immigration bill March 27, 2006. The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High. (Leo Jarzomb/Staff photo)

I think the issue (besides the law) is respect. This picture totally nausiated me. After seeing this picture I can only fantasize about who I would like to see hanging from that flagpole. Our laws are not respected, our dollars are not respected, our flag is not respected and our property is not respected. And they are trying to make a point by ticking people off?

 

[LakeAriel]

You really shouldn't be throwing that racist word around so impulsively. It's actually pretty insulting, and you're adding nothing to this argument.

If you can show me one person on this thread who said that all mexicans are looking for handouts, then you might have a point. However, I think you'll find that the majority of people are saying that "illegal immigrants" are looking for handouts. Which, depending on how you define handouts, is true. They're here taking advantage of our tax dollars and giving nothing back. That's a handout.

Do you prefer the word bigot?

 

[bsnyder]

Laugh O Grams and LakeAriel (or anyone else who wants to defend it), I'd love to know what exactly it is you like about the Judiciary Committee's reform bill.

What I'm taking away from it is that it's a virtual bonanza of amensty and attempts to legalize every illegal alien who is in the country or is even thinking about entering the country.

Am I missing something?

 

[CheshireVal]

Do you preferr the word bigot?

I prefer that words be used correctly. (And spelled correctly too, when possible. )

 

[Teejay32]

Laugh O Grams and LakeAriel (or anyone else who wants to defend it), I'd love to know what exactly it is you like about the Judiciary Committee's reform bill.

What I'm taking away from it is that it's a virtual bonanza of amensty and attempts to legalize every illegal alien who is in the country or is even thinking about entering the country.

Am I missing something?

I don't see the amnesty being granted. OTOH I think the prevailing mood is that anything not resulting in the immediate deportation of 12 million people is some kind of amnesty. I've just looked at it briefly, and it looks like Congress is attempting to reshape immigration policies to reflect the reality on the ground, and to stem the flow of illegals by securing the border, but it is definitely not the big hammer blow that a lot of people want. Again, on the other hand, Congress doesn't seem to hold the belief that all of the jobs illegals hold will translate into American jobs at better wages either, so what the public demands and expects might be just wishful thinking.

 

[momof2inPA]

Laugh O Grams and LakeAriel (or anyone else who wants to defend it), I'd love to know what exactly it is you like about the Judiciary Committee's reform bill.

What I'm taking away from it is that it's a virtual bonanza of amensty and attempts to legalize every illegal alien who is in the country or is even thinking about entering the country.

Am I missing something?

No kidding! I'm disgusted by our politicians, who backed down from what the voters wanted because a bunch of people who can't even vote marched around in L.A. and Miami. I'll never vote for Arlen Specter again.

 

[brerrabbit]

(Sorry for the long post, but I am just to near to all this and when I was through writing I couldn't believe how much I wrote)


Thought I would add my two cents to the whole debate since I feel like I live in the middle of the situation here in Texas. First, I do not and I don't think anyone should generalize "Mexicans". I live and work in the middle of one the if not the largest concentration of Hispanics in the US. There are those who are second, third, and fourth generation Americans who hold jobs, pay taxes, and are responsible citizens. Interestingly enough they are also the group of Hispanics who for the most part agree that we should close our border and crack down on illeagal immigration. Then there is a second group of Hispanics in our area, and believe me they are not hard to find at all, even though the US government says they are. Every morning I pass two Home Depots on the way to Downtown Houston. In front of each are 20 to 30 Hispanic males hanging out waiting for a contractor to come by and pick them up for a days work. The going rate is around $8.00 and hour, paid in cash at the end of the day, plus lunch, usually a hamburger and fries. They are probably 90% undocumented and in this country illeagally. In addition to Home Depot there are probably 50 to 60 spots around the greater Houston area where the same thing goes on every day. Contractors know where every one of the spots are. The next place to find illeagals are the emergency room of any Hospital in the Greater Houston area starting at about 5:00 on Friday afternoon. Federal guidelines say that any hospital that accepts payment from the US Government (Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) must see any patient who shows up in their emergengy room needing care regardless of ability to pay. The illeagals wait till 5:00 on Friday because they know they will not be told to go see a regular Doctor because they are not open again till Monday morning.

Now I know your probably thinking, how does this guy know this? Well I have been in an emergency room in Houston of a Friday night more times than I care to think about and have seen it happen. Additionally I know sever ER nurses and they teel me the horror stories about working weekends. And mind you these people are not there for true emergencies, they are there because they or their children have the flu, allergies, and normal everyday ailments. The strain that this puts on our medical resources in and around Houston are huge.

My wife works in a middle school and has undocument kids checking in all the time. They ask for previous schools attended and records for the child. They never have them, but they cannot deny the child attendence to the school on that basis. They can only bar the child from attending until they can produce their immunization record and if they don't have that she is required to direct them to the county health clinic to receive the proper immunizations. The next day they are back and have what they need to get into school.

Now I know my observations are a microcosim of the whole US but I can assure you this is going on all over the southern US. Some will argue that the impact to our economy of deporting these people would increase prices for a lot of goods and services because no one else would do the work that they do. That may be true but weigh that savings agaisnt the cost I pay as a taxpayer in the area. They create costs by going to emergency rooms for free health care, sendind kids to school while not contrubuting to the cost of their education and work in under the table arrangement s where no payroll taxes are collected. For people in Texas the cost far outweights any perceived benifits.

Now given the reasons I have stated economically for the holding the line on immigration I have to also share the rest of the story. I have participated in Mission trips to Mexico for the past two years in the town of Los Carbonares. It is a small fishing village of about a thousand residents on the Gulf Coast about 85 miles south of Brownsville. The poverty and living conditions of this town are shocking. Houses are made of wood and tarpaper, and have no bathrooms only outhouses. They have no running water for drinking. The only running water is pumped untreated from a lake nearby and usually only on every third day. No amount of boiling or treating can make it consumable. Therfore they must buy all their drinking water. The average wage in this town is $10 US a day and about the only job available is that of fisherman. However most are to poor to own their own boats so they lease them from the local co-op. Co-op is really a misleading term because it is owned by one wealthy man who leases them their boats, and nets and buys their catches at set rates each day. He also sells them gas and groceries. Typical company store scenario. On our trips we take clothes, sewing machines and material for the families. We in conjunction with Builders without Borders have built numerous houses for residents as well as a building at the local elementary school to house a library and computer lab. Ladies from our church give sewing lessons and we hold vacation bible studies for the children every afternoon.

So the moral to all this? We have a huge problem that cannot be fixed overnight. I am all for closing the border to stem the flow of illeagal immigrants, but at the same time can understand 100% why if you lived in that condition in Mexico you would make every attempt you could to get to the Us to better you and your families living conditions.

 

[ecr110]

Actually illegal immigrants are helping to support the Social Security and Medicare system. Most employers require a SSN for book purposes- the SSN for the worker doens't have to be valid, but it is more of a CYA for the employer. As a result, the employer pays taxes on the income earned. Even though they pay taxes that go to Social Security, illegal immigrants are not eligible to receive it. Most of the surplus is being unclaimed since the illegal immigrants are either working with bogus SSNs or with their valid ITIN. It's estimated by SSA that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002. The Social Security Administration stashes these earnings in the 'earnings suspense file'- in the 90s, this file was worth $189 billion, twice what it was in the 80s. In the current decade, the file is generating, by year, over $6 billion in Social Security tax revenue. It is estimated that this contribution is about 10% of the surplus accrued yearly by Social Security taxes.
So there are a couple of things to take from this: Social Security is already in trouble, and from all accounts, the SSA is counting on the earnings of immigrants to help keep the SS afloat; the government, through the unclaimed SSNs, knows who employs the illegal immigrants and where the areas are that are benefitting and could crack down if necessary.
I think that the illegal immigration is a more complex issue than perhaps what is presented. While immigration is a drain on community resources such as education/health care, it is also a huge boon to SS, medicare and business.
*All stats are from the April 5th, 2005 article in NY Times.

 

[brerrabbit]

Given that I have serious doubts that I will ever see any benifit from SS and the fact that I pay outrageous taxes and fees where I live, the so called benifit to the Social Security system and Medicare is of no consiquince to me at all. Additionally, I would venture to say that the number of illeagals working in the US far exceeds the 3.8 million households quoted in the article. As I stated earlier the vast majority of thes workers are paid cash daily. Those employed for longer periods of time are treated as contract workers and are paid with no taxes deducted and are supposedly responsible for paying their taxes quarterly, which they never do. The employer files his paperwork and gives the worker a 990 form and thats the end of it. No offence meant but I do not see the extra money in SS as any form of benifit.

 

[Teejay32]

no, it wouldn't benefit anyone personally, but collectively it supports SS. I'm not condoning it, but I too think that has something to do with the country's schitzophrenic policies toward illegals. We have similar problems in our ERs, up here, and the groups outside Home Depot too...though years ago they were outside of the unemployment office, so that people collecting their checks or looking for jobs could at least be picked up for a day's work.

 

[bsnyder]

Actually illegal immigrants are helping to support the Social Security and Medicare system. Most employers require a SSN for book purposes- the SSN for the worker doens't have to be valid, but it is more of a CYA for the employer. As a result, the employer pays taxes on the income earned. Even though they pay taxes that go to Social Security, illegal immigrants are not eligible to receive it. Most of the surplus is being unclaimed since the illegal immigrants are either working with bogus SSNs or with their valid ITIN. It's estimated by SSA that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002. The Social Security Administration stashes these earnings in the 'earnings suspense file'- in the 90s, this file was worth $189 billion, twice what it was in the 80s. In the current decade, the file is generating, by year, over $6 billion in Social Security tax revenue. It is estimated that this contribution is about 10% of the surplus accrued yearly by Social Security taxes.
So there are a couple of things to take from this: Social Security is already in trouble, and from all accounts, the SSA is counting on the earnings of immigrants to help keep the SS afloat; the government, through the unclaimed SSNs, knows who employs the illegal immigrants and where the areas are that are benefitting and could crack down if necessary.
I think that the illegal immigration is a more complex issue than perhaps what is presented. While immigration is a drain on community resources such as education/health care, it is also a huge boon to SS, medicare and business.
*All stats are from the April 5th, 2005 article in NY Times.

I'd be very interested to see if you can find a credible source that makes the argument that the current influx of illegal immigrants are a NET positive - that is, they pay more into the system (SS and other revenues) than they take out in services like medicare, medicaid, food stamps, school systems, etc. The facts are that they are a huge drain.

And it's not because these are lazy people who want something for nothing. The majority are hardworking and just want a chance at a better life than what they can have at home. But when they get here, they generally don't go home. And as fast as these folks move up the ladder, they're being replenished by others. Since 1980, the number of Hispanics with incomes below the government's poverty line (about $19,300 in 2004 for a family of four) has risen 162 percent.

We are systematically relieving Mexico of some portion of that country's poverty and importing it here. Year after year after year. Great for Mexico. Not so great for us.

If that's what the American people want and intend to do, let's have the politicians state that as a policy goal and vote it into action. I dare 'em!

 

[Teejay32]

I'd be very interested to see if you can find a credible source that makes the argument that the current influx of illegal immigrants are a NET positive - that is, they pay more into the system (SS and other revenues) than they take out in services like medicare, medicaid, food stamps, school systems, etc.

no one has suggested that they are. They are a drain, because the cost of schooling and emergency room visits are sky-high, and the wages they're making dollar contributions on are beneath the floor. But for SS and Medicare specifically, it's a gain.