No availability in a Copper Creek studio at 11 months

[Sandisw]

If DVC designed the point charts at CC with the cabins allowing them to sell more points, and then knowingly sold a large number of small contracts, fully aware that it would create an inventory problem, could that be considered fraudulent? Are there any requirements that they balance the structure of the contracts they sell with what they can reasonably accommodate?

I do not know about CCV, but according to my RIV POS it discusses it and says that depending on contract size, you may or may not be able to get certain minimums.

So, I believe they have covered themselves if one is buying less than what it takes, if all things were equal...there is a chart in the back that gives what that would be..to reserve more than 1 day.

I dont have the exact language handy, but they can sell X points and with the first come, first serve aspect, they simply can’t have more points sold than what is available,

While, yes, guides tend to discuss studios and the point charts, what they are saying is accurate. Of course, while many may not, you are given time to read through everything before signing that covers it.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I do not know about CCV, but according to my RIV POS it discusses it and says that depending on contract size, you may or may not be able to get certain minimums.

So, I believe they have covered themselves if one is buying less than what it takes, if all things were equal...there is a chart in the back that gives what that would be..to reserve more than 1 day.

I dont have the exact language handy, but they can sell X points and with the first come, first serve aspect, they simply can’t have more points sold than what is available,

I also tend to think that it being a point system that they outline is first come first served and no room type or date is guaranteed (except for guaranteed weeks of course) covers them. The guides would never put in writing that it's easy to book something even though they might state it or use other tactics to imply it. And everyone signs that they've received the POS and Home resort rules and regulations so if they don't read it it's upon them.

 

[Philsfan77]

29th/30th/31st already gone...walkers might be a part of it, but it also doesn't appear that the dates are being released back, like they normally would be if walkers were walking by.

 

[EM Lawrence]

I only make this as a general statement, not a statement specific to whether DVC did anything fraudulent in inflating the points charts with points from the cabins and then selling a disproportionate number of small contracts. But generally speaking, just because a buyer signed a contract that stated rooms may not be available does not necessarily give the seller a complete pass. You can’t commit fraud, have the buyer sign a statement saying they are aware of the conditions of that fraud, and then use that as a defense in court. Well, I suppose you could, but if a judge disagrees with you it won’t get you anywhere. Illegal things are still illegal even if both sides agree to them.

 

[Sandisw]

I only make this as a general statement, not a statement specific to whether DVC did anything fraudulent in inflating the points charts with points from the cabins and then selling a disproportionate number of small contracts. But generally speaking, just because a buyer signed a contract that stated rooms may not be available does not necessarily give the seller a complete pass. You can’t commit fraud, have the buyer sign a statement saying they are aware of the conditions of that fraud, and then use that as a defense in court. Well, I suppose you could, but if a judge disagrees with you it won’t get you anywhere. Illegal things are still illegal even if both sides agree to them.

I agree that they can not commit fraud, but the POS seems to be clear that buying small point contracts May not get you more than 1 night in any of the rooms,

I believe that some of the older resorts...someone can correct me..did have a minimum number of nights a purchase would get you If there were no seasons, but that was when the minimum was much higher,

Now, guides for sure seem to share possibilities of what can be booked, but I would venture most use the term..your 90 points could get you 6 nights at X resorts in January. Not will Get you...

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I'm not certain that there would be much of an argument that DVC was attempting fraud by building Cabins and selling corresponding points to them. They've been doing the point system since DVC started and with a point system there is no room guarantee. Even if any such claim went further they had claimed in the past that the Bungalows booked up and one could suppose they have some records to prove that. IF they overestimated the appeal of the Cabins it would be chalked up to a mistake in their plans but buyers still always take on a risk in a point system that the exact room they want won't be available. And the ultimate fall back - SSR is almost always available as an option so an owner couldn't claim they couldn't get a room.

I agree that they can not commit fraud, but the POS seems to be clear that buying small point contracts May not get you more than 1 night in any of the rooms,

I believe that some of the older resorts...someone can correct me..did have a minimum number of nights a purchase would get you If there were no seasons, but that was when the minimum was much higher,

Now, guides for sure seem to share possibilities of what can be booked, but I would venture most use the term..your 90 points could get you 6 nights at X resorts in January. Not will Get you...

They also state that they can implement a minimum stay and that you might not have enough points. I don't see that they ever will because there's probably too many they sold the minimum 50 pts to in the most recent years. But it's there and they could.

 

[SL6827]

I'm not certain that there would be much of an argument that DVC was attempting fraud by building Cabins and selling corresponding points to them. They've been doing the point system since DVC started and with a point system there is no room guarantee. Even if any such claim went further they had claimed in the past that the Bungalows booked up and one could suppose they have some records to prove that. IF they overestimated the appeal of the Cabins it would be chalked up to a mistake in their plans but buyers still always take on a risk in a point system that the exact room they want won't be available. And the ultimate fall back - SSR is almost always available as an option so an owner couldn't claim they couldn't get a room.



They also state that they can implement a minimum stay and that you might not have enough points. I don't see that they ever will because there's probably too many they sold the minimum 50 pts to in the most recent years. But it's there and they could.

Never say never with Disney now.

 

[EM Lawrence]

I think it gets even more interesting if they develop a property this way again in the future with the new resale restrictions in place. If they disproportionately sell small point contracts and then those contracts can only book at their home resort upon being resold, and there is a known availability issue in the lowest point room category.... it raises some intriguing questions. I wonder if it is a coincidence that RIV does not have a point hog category similar to the cabins or the bungalows?

 

[heapmaster]

This has been the traditional/historical experience:

Predicted DVC booking patterns - Studios, 1-BD & 2-BD charts (September 2019 2-BD added!)

But 2020 & the pandemic has impacted everything - it may take some time for the effects to return to some semblance of "normal". All you can do is book, check back often, and waitlist as needed. Good luck!

Those dont cover CCV...

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Those dont cover CCV...

Honestly, you can assume studios are gone at 11 months or very near for all of Fall Frenzy. 1BRs also have patchy availability through home resort at this time, although there is sometimes some flipping at 7 months.

Rest of year, studios are still starting to run into weird availability even at 11 months.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it gets even more interesting if they develop a property this way again in the future with the new resale restrictions in place. If they disproportionately sell small point contracts and then those contracts can only book at their home resort upon being resold, and there is a known availability issue in the lowest point room category.... it raises some intriguing questions. I wonder if it is a coincidence that RIV does not have a point hog category similar to the cabins or the bungalows?

I think the location of RIV would not lend itself to those. Poly and WL really did.

Again, for me, it goes back to the POS, and buyers knowing what they are buying.

But it does seem that with CCV and RIV they did put minimums of 100 for new buyers...although they have let them break up too.

 

[Pyotr]

Studios are available again starting September 1, 2021. Why was August booked solid and September open? I have no idea.

 

[zavandor]

There is a lurking issue in the law called "fraudulent concealment." If you sell property knowing there is significant problem affecting use or value of the property that is not known to the buyer, the buyer may be able to later void the sale and get his money back or seek damages because of your failure to reveal the problem during the process of doing the sale. There are defenses, including that the buyer, by minimal investigation, may have discovered the problem, but that is not a certain defense particularly if the buyer is told anything like the points being transferred can easily get studios at 11-months out. But an existing owner (and any broker acting as the sales agent), to assure in the sale that he avoids a future lawsuit seeking to void the sale, needs to consider taking the safe course of telling a potential buyer that there is an 11-month issue with CCV studios.

Wow, this is really scary for someone owning a small contract. Wouldn't the same apply to Disney selling small addons to existing owners at other resorts?

To successfully walk you only need enough points to cover the two highest point-cost nights that will exist during your walk, i.e., typically two weekend nights.

What walking does at 11-months out is prevent anyone from reserving the room you have for the nights you already have and any future nights. Thus with enough points for two nights, you can begin a walk and succeed as long as you modify your reservation daily to drop a night and add a night. The only thing that having enough points for 7 nights adds to the equation is that the owner with that many points needs to modify only every 6 days.

In other words, if for example, I started a walk today, Sep 25, 2020, by reserving both Aug 25 and 26, 2021, I could successfully complete a walk to any period just as well as someone with enough points for 7 nights who started a walk today reserving Aug 25-Sep 2, 2021.

This is less true for resorts who have fixed weeks. For example, if for the first week of December they've sold a lot of FW for studios, if multiple people start walking in mid November to get those, then not everyone may be able to get them. People able to book a full week will be able to get to 12/1 before someone able to book just two or three nights, securing the walk. There are a lot of assumptions in this example*, so not likely, but in theory it's possible.

* that over 65% reservations in November are walked toward December if 35% studios in December are sold as FW.

 

[M:SpilotISTC12]

Studios are available again starting September 1, 2021. Why was August booked solid and September open? I have no idea.

I checked this morning. I was blown away that all days, so far, in September 21 are open. So weird.

 

[Lorana]

Studios are available again starting September 1, 2021. Why was August booked solid and September open? I have no idea.

While it seems unlikely, maybe there are a lot of people planning to visit before school starts? And hoping that they'll continue the early starting trends and thus both the Halloween Party and Food & Wine will be running in late August?

If it were BRV, I'd hazard that maybe they've moved the renovations out till then, but it's CCV, so I just don't know.