News Round Up

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I'm just gently telling you the value placed on 1. Average stay
2. Average spending per guest.

I guess I have to admit that you are correct that this is their current philosophy, and as such, their current approach matches that philosophy. I probably also have to admit that the stats bear out this philosophy as being reasonable.

I just don't agree with their current philosophy. Maybe that's why I'm not the Disney CEO.
 
I'm not sure that your argument is valid. Annual attendance for HS was 10.1M people with a nighttime show. Annual attendance for AK was 10.2M people without a nighttime show... HS has the fewest ATTRACTIONS of any park in the WDW portfolio. Again, this does nothing but further my argument that ATTRACTIONS bring people to the parks. Not restaurants, not shows. Attractions. Everything else is peripheral.

The issue here, and what has always been seen has false #s, is that "attendance" is determined by the park people go to first. Disney doesn't count attendance twice, so if you start in AK and finish in DHS, that doesn't count for DHS. It's generally known that people go to AK early, and as others have pointed out, then leave for other parks. How many people are drawn to DHS in the evenings for Fantasmic!, but don't get counted in the park attendance for that day? Certainly no-one on this board knows.

A nighttime show could possibly keep people in the park for the full day. OR, maybe it will lead to less people coming early and more people coming late.

Overall though - there is more chance that this expansion does more to self cannibalize than it does to bring new people through the gates. Slow growth is inevitable when you are the size of WDW. Even had they bought and built Harry Potter, they would not have seen the % growth that Universal did. Disney would've been lucky to see a 3-5 % bump, and the fact is, they probably got almost that large a bump when Universal built HP.

And that's Disney's greatest problem, and why it's more or less "built out". The question is will DAK draw people from MK, which is what they want, or will it be from Epcot and DHS. Because that's there biggest problem now, to boost the other parks or more specifically to pull some of the crowds from MK.


I guess I have to admit that I'm not being very clear in my point, or not articulating it well. I do not mean at all that these need to be ongoing upgrades, nor that they need enough to keep me busy for my 2-3 week vacation. I simply mean they need one big expansion (probably tiered in over a several years) at the three secondary parks so that they start to become a near equal draw to MK. In the process, they will create a resort that will take more than 7 days to "do it all" which will entice their average visitor to want to come back each year.

No, I think I got what you are saying. It's just not realistic, regardless of what I just said above.

1) They don't want all four parks to be equal to Magic Kingdom. They never did. However, they WOULD like to draw some people away from this park.
2) They don't NEED to convince people to come back. For every person that stops coming back, there's a new one to take his place.

The facts are the facts: they are continuing to increase the # of visitors every year, even with near-stupid year-over-year price increase.

Now, if they were forward thinking then I would agree that they would want improvements in the 3 lesser parks. Generally corporations aren't that forward thinking but again, in this case, they ARE looking at major expansions in TWO of their parks. You (and others) may choose to not call the DAK expansion a MAJOR expansion but it is. They are sinking $500 million into the park - which almost twice what they put into NFL (what I would consider a minor expansion). They are increasing the #of rides in the park by 25%, increasing dining options by about 40%, increasing shows by 25%.

There is also discussion/evidence of a major DHS expansion. Without full details, we can criticize rumors, but that is all prattle until an announcement is made. If the rumored $1 billion overhaul occurs, that is without doubt MAJOR.
 
The issue here, and what has always been seen has false #s, is that "attendance" is determined by the park people go to first. Disney doesn't count attendance twice, so if you start in AK and finish in DHS, that doesn't count for DHS. It's generally known that people go to AK early, and as others have pointed out, then leave for other parks. How many people are drawn to DHS in the evenings for Fantasmic!, but don't get counted in the park attendance for that day? Certainly no-one on this board knows.

A nighttime show could possibly keep people in the park for the full day. OR, maybe it will lead to less people coming early and more people coming late.

Overall though - there is more chance that this expansion does more to self cannibalize than it does to bring new people through the gates. Slow growth is inevitable when you are the size of WDW. Even had they bought and built Harry Potter, they would not have seen the % growth that Universal did. Disney would've been lucky to see a 3-5 % bump, and the fact is, they probably got almost that large a bump when Universal built HP.

And that's Disney's greatest problem, and why it's more or less "built out". The question is will DAK draw people from MK, which is what they want, or will it be from Epcot and DHS. Because that's there biggest problem now, to boost the other parks or more specifically to pull some of the crowds from MK.




No, I think I got what you are saying. It's just not realistic, regardless of what I just said above.

1) They don't want all four parks to be equal to Magic Kingdom. They never did. However, they WOULD like to draw some people away from this park.
2) They don't NEED to convince people to come back. For every person that stops coming back, there's a new one to take his place.

The facts are the facts: they are continuing to increase the # of visitors every year, even with near-stupid year-over-year price increase.

Now, if they were forward thinking then I would agree that they would want improvements in the 3 lesser parks. Generally corporations aren't that forward thinking but again, in this case, they ARE looking at major expansions in TWO of their parks. You (and others) may choose to not call the DAK expansion a MAJOR expansion but it is. They are sinking $500 million into the park - which almost twice what they put into NFL (what I would consider a minor expansion). They are increasing the #of rides in the park by 25%, increasing dining options by about 40%, increasing shows by 25%.

There is also discussion/evidence of a major DHS expansion. Without full details, we can criticize rumors, but that is all prattle until an announcement is made. If the rumored $1 billion overhaul occurs, that is without doubt MAJOR.
Great summary..i would add from Jason Garcia at the Sentinel this expansion at DAK is about 800 million with 500 going to Avatar and the rest going to the other parts of the expansion (New Harambe, ROL, new dining etc..)
 
The issue here, and what has always been seen has false #s, is that "attendance" is determined by the park people go to first. Disney doesn't count attendance twice, so if you start in AK and finish in DHS, that doesn't count for DHS. It's generally known that people go to AK early, and as others have pointed out, then leave for other parks. How many people are drawn to DHS in the evenings for Fantasmic!, but don't get counted in the park attendance for that day? Certainly no-one on this board knows.

I understand and agree with the park attendance calculations issue, but the logic that you outlined above actually makes your argument worse. What we do know is that on average, 26,900 people visit HS daily. As you suggested, this figure does not count the "hoppers" coming from other parks, so in actuality, the number of people entering the HS gates, on average, for any given day is higher than 26,900 people (for arguments sake, let's call it 35,000 people). As outlined in my above post, the Fantasmic theater has a fixed capacity of ~9,000 people per show. So now, the % of people who passed through the gates and are staying for the nighttime show - regardless of when they arrived - is even lower than 1/3 on a night with only one showing.
 

Funnily enough - I think AK is the park that needs the least. We currently spend two full days most trips at this park, or at least a day and a half. (Last time we had our 2nd day washed out.) If the park is open later, than I might only spend one (fuller) day there.

DHS is the severely lacking park in our family. If we spend 8 hours total in that park it's a lot.

Completely agree. We have only done 1 day at AK our past 2 trips and I didn't feel like I got to do everything I wanted to. It helps that I'm an animal lover and could probably spend all day watching some pigs play in mud. But I've always loved the overall design and feel of Animal Kingdom so this next trip we decided to spend 1.5-2 days there. HS however I feel doesn't have enough to do right now to warrant a full day, so we will be leaving HS early to go to DTD for dinner instead of eating at 50's Prime Time like we always have in the past. We'll have to miss Fantasmic, but I just can't see us waiting around in the park that long.

We don't have kids, but I feel it must be even worse for families with small children right now. We are only going to HS for ToT, TSMM, and Start Tours.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the changes they are making at HS, but it feels so far in the future, and patience is not my virtue! :-)
 
You know...this is the classic "people don't get it" argument...

And as I saw first hand...people didn't get it early...so I agreed.

But you know...17 years is along time to Keep up the misunderstanding. At some point it is what it is...

They built a roller coaster that didn't work and a puppet show with fish in the last 14 years...that's along time for any park...even a disney one.
I'm with Andy on this...I honestly don't think they're going nearly far enough. It's gonna still come up way short.

The show, avatar, and the restaurant overhaul shoulda been done instead of Chester and Hester...it was needed then...and then followed up with consistency every 3 years afterward...

But here we are...farther down a slippery slope.


Perhaps I should have been more careful with my words. I guess if people want to say AK is a 1/2 day park, that's fine as long as long they always include the qualifier that it is a 1/2 day park for them. But to try to apply their reality to everyone is wrong - and I understand that's a two-way street.

Similarly, though, my saying that I don't consider it a 1/2 day park, and that we always enjoy a full day there doesn't mean that I don't believe they could have and should have done more there. It's possible to still enjoy something even if you think it could have been even better.
 
I understand and agree with the park attendance calculations issue, but the logic that you outlined above actually makes your argument worse. What we do know is that on average, 26,900 people visit HS daily. As you suggested, this figure does not count the "hoppers" coming from other parks, so in actuality, the number of people entering the HS gates, on average, for any given day is higher than 26,900 people (for arguments sake, let's call it 35,000 people). As outlined in my above post, the Fantasmic theater has a fixed capacity of ~9,000 people per show. So now, the % of people who passed through the gates and are staying for the nighttime show - regardless of when they arrived - is even lower than 1/3 on a night with only one showing.
i said this last night and maybe it didnt get noticed but the for the week that i am there this summer Fantasmic runs twice a night...so double that number
theres got to be a reason why they have two shows
 
i said this last night and maybe it didnt get noticed but the for the week that i am there this summer Fantasmic runs twice a night...so double that number
theres got to be a reason why they have two shows

You are correct, but notice I said "with only one showing". I'm honestly not a big fan of Fantasmic, so I'm no expert, but I believe more times than not, there is only one showing. Regardless, the logic is still sound.

I don't dispute Pete's claim that a number of "hoppers" enter the park in the evening to catch the show. But what is also true (100% confirmed for single night showings, potentially debatable in "peak" seasons) is that an even larger number of guests leave the park prior to the show.

I stand by my claim that a nighttime show - unless absolutely spectacular - will not be a "draw" as compared to a greater number of attractions. Rather, it will shift when people visit the park.
 
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Good Morning America just announced the 24 Hr party on 5/22 at WDW.

Along with "Frozen Summer Fun LIVE" which "will bring together Princess Anna, Queen Elsa, Kristoff and Olaf with citizens of Arendelle, all appearing daily in shows and experiences at Disney's Hollywood Studios, June 17-Sept. 7. Guests will find cool thrills this summer including a royal processional, a sing-along show, Frozen-themed treats and merchandise, plus a Frozen fireworks display above Hollywood Blvd."

http://www.wspa.com/story/28386967/...olest-summer-ever-at-walt-disney-world-resort
 
Again,


You are correct, but notice I said "with only one showing". I'm honestly not a big fan of Fantasmic, so I'm no expert, but I believe more times than not, there is only one showing. Regardless, the logic is still sound.

I don't dispute Pete's claim that a number of "hoppers" enter the park in the evening to catch the show. But what is also true (100% confirmed for single night showings, potentially debatable in "peak" seasons) is that an even larger number of guests leave the park prior to the show.

I stand by my claim that a nighttime show - unless absolutely spectacular - will not be a "draw" as compared to a greater number of attractions. Rather, it will shift when people visit the park.
My nephew is a CM at DHS i may ask him what he thinks on this topic...good discussion though
 
I think Skier Pete touched on something. We often look at Universal as the competition, and they are, but to a certain extent they complement each other. Taking Orlando as a whole unit, I'd be curious to see flight booking numbers to MCO and how much growth there is in the area. Lodging and retail are where the money is to be made.
If you book 7-9 days in orlando, with 7 days at wdw, are you going to buy as many disney souvenirs as if you only visit 5 of those days. I'm sure that is the thought with DVC. Make WDW your home base for Orlando. Disney springs is a bit of loss leader for WDW, hoping to bring in non-disney Orlando visitors, giving them a taste of what can be had in the "world". The Orlando market is continuing to grow, and competition for tourist dollars continue to grow. I'm sure the realization has come to light that money is not made on admissions, and that at best they hope to break even. Keep the beds full, even if that means losing the guest during the day. They'll still buy the souvenirs.
The real threat is Universal packaged lodging.
There is less incentive to build new attractions on property, when your neighbor will do it and you don't have to spend a dime.
 
I view the nighttime shows like dessert. Few people go to a restaurant just for dessert. The main draw is dinner, but they may decide to indulge in dessert while they're there. No one is paying $100+ park admission to view a 20 minute firework show. They're going for the rides / attractions, and may decide to take in the nighttime show while they're there.
 
No disrespect intended but I watch the "News roundup" thread to stay in tune to "news", I was wondering if you would be willing to take this discussion of the business end of the parks to a different thread.
This has been discussed in the past that there really is no place here for general park discussion so it ends up here. I post the news here daily and yes it does get lost from time to time but the discussions don't last forever. This thread is just a draw for that unfortunately.
 
Perhaps I should have been more careful with my words. I guess if people want to say AK is a 1/2 day park, that's fine as long as long they always include the qualifier that it is a 1/2 day park for them. But to try to apply their reality to everyone is wrong - and I understand that's a two-way street.

Similarly, though, my saying that I don't consider it a 1/2 day park, and that we always enjoy a full day there doesn't mean that I don't believe they could have and should have done more there. It's possible to still enjoy something even if you think it could have been even better.

Understood...I get ya...

I think my point is the "1/2 day" crowd are not the outliers. The park just doesn't pack enough punch.
Even if you give the park a benefit of the doubt...what they absolutely should not have done was taken the hands off approach to save money...

And that's what they did.

They let crazy joe rhode burn through cash like candy...then opened it too early to trump IOA for no reason whatsoever...
 
Understood...I get ya...

I think my point is the "1/2 day" crowd are not the outliers. The park just doesn't pack enough punch.
Even if you give the park a benefit of the doubt...what they absolutely should not have done was taken the hands off approach to save money...

And that's what they did.

They let crazy joe rhode burn through cash like candy...then opened it too early to trump IOA for no reason whatsoever...
I know AK was well over budget and all but I am a big Joe Rohde fan he has done some great work. He in fact tweeted earlier today he's on his way to Orlando for work and of course he's staying at AKL.
 
This has been discussed in the past that there really is no place here for general park discussion so it ends up here. I post the news here daily and yes it does get lost from time to time but the discussions don't last forever. This thread is just a draw for that unfortunately.

The actual "news" is so few and far between that its not really worthy of a constant update spot. I always think of this as "general discussion for the thoughtful"...as it tends to not involve Pom poms or the stuff that can be gleaned with a copy of birnbaums or 14 keystrokes into google
 
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