New rule enforcement on points

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If anyone feels the need to "correct" another poster, feel free to use PM or email - but such personal comments are not welcome on the boards themselves.

Thanks.
 
Sorry, but I still stand by my original statement. Needing to constantly make transfers into or out of an account sounds like nothing more than poor planning to me. If you don't share that opinion fine, but then don't ask others to discuss it if you don't want to hear that opinion.
 
Okay, now for the real shocker! I DO agree that members should be able to transfer from one contract to the other if they own more than one. The enforcement of the transfer as it stands now does not make that possible.

And another point....I don't really see how the curtailing of multiple transfers should prevent anyone from filling out a reservation for that "one time big family gathering" either. You still have the option of renting points from another member and getting your increase in points that way by having the other member make the extra ressies and linking them to yours.

Besides, in my POS, it says that no money is to change hands for transfers. I always looked at that when we first purchased and asked myself HOW or WHY I would want to do that. I guess I can ask the rest of you that too. WHY would you want to transfer out without remuneration and HOW would you transfer in without it?
 
dianeschlicht said:
Sorry, but I still stand by my original statement. Needing to constantly make transfers into or out of an account sounds like nothing more than poor planning to me. If you don't share that opinion fine, but then don't ask others to discuss it if you don't want to hear that opinion.

Count me with you on this one, Diane. It is hard to think of any scenario that would require TRANSFERRING that can't be handled by better planning. I also agree with your following post that transfers across multiple contracts of a single member are a different story and should probably be treated differently. Yes, the risks go up, but with banking, borrowing, and the remaining ability to rent reservations, I think most scenarios can still be handled with the new enforcement provisions. Is it always as easy or seamless? Probably not, but no one has ever claimed that DVC doesn't work better with advance planning and active point management. BTW, if I remember the POS correctly, the other thing that should be noted is that you can't ever have more than three years amount of points at your disposal, so the transferring enforcement lessens the possibility or need to enforce that little thought about provision (which I am pretty sure I remember reading in the POS).
 

For the past few weeks I’ve read about DVC’s decision to enforce the points transfer provisions of our contracts. Clearly, DVC’s decision is causing problems.

It’s always unfortunate when the actions of some (e.g., the commercial renters) ruin things for the rest of us. Yet, this type of thing happens regularly in our lives. Yes, the majority sometimes suffers at the hands of the minority. Regarding the “commercial renters”, to some, the “commercial renters” are entrepreneurs just taking advantage of an opportunity, to others the “commercial renters” are rule breakers, and others may not care one way or the other because we aren’t personally affected (or so we thought). I am clearly in the “we aren’t affected by this” camp. I have never transferred or rented points and I am unlikely to do so in the future. Therefore, at first blush DVC’s decision to enforce the transfer provisions of our contract has not affected us. But wait, perhaps we were affected by the “commercial renters” we just didn’t know it.

Yes, I can see because DVC failed to enforce the point transfer policy it enabled the e permitted the entrepreneurial “commercial renters” to take advantage of the situation in an effort to make some money. Clearly, this isn’t something that DVC wittingly encouraged and clearly our contracts prohibit this type of thing but some people see rules, laws, and contract provisions differently than others. Some found the door open and they decided to go for it. Now, we are all dealing with the results of their actions and DVC’s failure to enforce the rules.

So I have a few questions (in no particular order):

Are there any specifics on the extent of the problem? (e.g., are there any facts)

Why did DVC wait until now to enforce the points transfer provisions of the contract?

Did DVC just recently become aware of the problem or have they known for a long time?

What reason (s) did DVC give for enforcing the policy? (I didn’t get the email notice stating DVC’s intention to enforce the transfer policy.)

What is the root cause of the problem? (1) DVC’s failure to enforce the provisions of our contract? (2) DVC’s inability to keep track of points in a manner that would disclose abuse of the policy by one or more individuals? (3) User abuse of DVC’s leniency? (4) All of the above?

Frankly, it’s unclear to me how to attack this issue. It could be that for now, the only way is to attack it is to do exactly what DVC has done. In the long term, DVC could enhance its system to keep points tied directly to their original DVC property. But in the short term it’s possible that they make the best decision they could given the nature of the problem.

Clearly, people are being affected by DVC’s decision to enforce the points transfer policy but what is the solution (absent a better points tracking system)? DVC put itself in the position of being damned if they didn’t enforce the transfer policy and damned if they did. DVC could have maintained the status quo and allow a few (“commercial renters” to control the prime vacation times or it could enforce the transfer policy to put the “commercial renters” out of business and potentially freeing up prime time for the rest of us while also negatively affecting innocent bystanders who aren’t “commercial renters” but do transfer points a few times a year, or every few years.
 
the other thing that should be noted is that you can't ever have more than three years amount of points at your disposal, so the transferring enforcement lessens the possibility or need to enforce that little thought about provision (which I am pretty sure I remember reading in the POS).

Aha, good one, Doctor P! I forgot about that one too! I guess I don't think about it much since we have never used 3 years of points at any given time. That might change next year when our DS gets married in WDW though!
 
dianeschlicht said:
Okay, now for the real shocker! I DO agree that members should be able to transfer from one contract to the other if they own more than one. The enforcement of the transfer as it stands now does not make that possible.

And another point....I don't really see how the curtailing of multiple transfers should prevent anyone from filling out a reservation for that "one time big family gathering" either. You still have the option of renting points from another member and getting your increase in points that way by having the other member make the extra ressies and linking them to yours.

Besides, in my POS, it says that no money is to change hands for transfers. I always looked at that when we first purchased and asked myself HOW or WHY I would want to do that. I guess I can ask the rest of you that too. WHY would you want to transfer out without remuneration and HOW would you transfer in without it?

Hi guys! Just back from 2+ wonderful weeks at OKW-US-OKW-VB :love:

Far out of the loop, but once again Diane (and WMD) has squarely hit the nail on the head, in *ALL* versions of the POS, transferring for renumeration is expressly prohibited. It seems self-serving to complain about changes caused by the point morphers (who took advantage of a flaw in the system), and your/our desire for multiple transfers a year, usually for compensation.

Yes the nice DVCers who donated a point here and there are now limited to only once, but everyone (of us) who ever 'purchased' transferred points, for personal or professional use, clearly violated a provision of our POS, and I'm not sure which is 'morally worse', taking advantage of an undocumented, but oft discussed flaw in the DVC point system, or deliberately violating POS rules RE: Transfers for profit, which has been unchanged in every POS that I am aware of (unlike the number of transfers per year issue).

The bottom line as I see this. Disney is protecting the DVC-II VAKL & CRV, by preventing massive point morphing. Instead of using finesse and programming, by correcting the DVC point software, they have use a sledge hammer on point transfers.

And please allow me to give you a personal insight to how *GREAT* Disney IT is:

WDW Computers went down *SYSTEMWIDE* on 08/14. CORRECTION the date was 08/15/2006, I'm tired from the drive home!
No KTTW cutting, no BIOMETRIC data at the turnstyles, Arcade game Money cards all failed, no KTTW charging. Check-in and Check-out were affected, I was told, but can not personally confirm, the ADR system was also affected.

How much did this 'computer error' cost Disney?

JMHO, YMMV,

-Tony
 
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Deb & Bill said:
Well, you did come off harsh. I thought the intent of this thread was to discuss the pros and cons of the enforcement of the policy? Diane was just stating that she had no problems with them enforcing it as it was written. Same for me.



I don't agree with this statement. I think that until just recently most members started out with the minimum required by Disney until some found out they could just get a small contract and still be a member.

Maybe that's the much-touted "secret":rolleyes1 hurry, change the locks, the barbarians are @ the gate.

Obviously, a small resale contract is enough to get you in the door...but, to be able to enjoy a few stays each year, banking & borrowing or add-ons are necessary.

I'm an ala carte sort of girl, no offense to any mega-owners but, if I'm going to buy 150 - 200 points why would I elect to have DVC direct me to whatever the current offering is & only have the 11 month advantage @ 1 resort, when I can own @ 3 & bank & borrow to fulfill my point requirements? Of course, we're still waiting for the next DVC offering for the 3rd (& hopefully final) add-on.

The transfer enforcement will just force those of us with either smaller contracts to re-evaluate our holdings & perhaps add on sooner rather than later.

Telling someone they're a "poor planner" reeks of elitism, rather harsh IMO. One person's idea of poor planning may just be another's attempt to live within their means.

As difficult as it may be for some to realize, a 25 point owner is just as much a member of the "club" as one who owns 1,000 points - they just get to visit more often.
wink.gif
 
As a rule there are few reasons to do transfers between accounts of a single owner. The only reasons I can see are to complete that individual night of the reservation and for those transfer options where ALL points must be in a SINGLE contract such as a DCL points exchange. And MS has always been flexible about these situations including transferring banked and borrowed points and I doubt any of the other issues will change that. Otherwise you just make separate reservations from different contracts and link them. I guess I could envision a couple of special circumstances where one might need to do wholesale transfers otherwise but I'm having trouble coming up with one right now.

I've owned for 12 years with as many as 4 contracts over 3 use years and I've never transferred points. Contrary to many people's impression, I've found it easier to rent out the points rather than do a transfer. But I have recommended many look for transfers either to dispose of unneeded points OR to get enough points for a given vacation option. Or even to buy a smaller points package and transfer in when needing extra.

But I'll remind everyone that there is a downside to this. Many who wanted to do that one time rental, rather than the low return exchange, felt more comfortable with a transfer. And those who would have transferred out who people would put in the commercial category, will now look to book all their points as high demand weeks. Plus those who would have transferred distressed points will likely have less options and likely lose a significant portion of those points.

And besides, while this is a popular move by DVC, it does remind us that the next change may be as negative to all of us as this is for some. Though I don't think it's nearly as negative for most who are getting blasted as the members here think it is.
 
WDW Computers went down *SYSTEMWIDE* on 08/14.

That was the day we went to all four parks and had no problem getting in or out. We even used our room charge card all day with no problem.

hmmm... i was wondering on the day we checked out, there was no bill hanging on our door, especially when we paid cash for the room & not staying on points. I better go check our cc to see if the charges went thru yet..... :bitelip:
 
from Kieshashadow:The transfer enforcement will just force those of us with either smaller contracts to re-evaluate our holdings & perhaps add on sooner rather than later.

Telling someone they're a "poor planner" reeks of elitism, rather harsh IMO. One person's idea of poor planning may just be another's attempt to live within their means.
You make this sound like we have to have mega points to keep from "planning", but that is not true. We only have a total of 380, and that certainly isn't a lot in the large scheme of DVC, yet we don't need to do all the transfering in or out to plan and be flexible. The system really does work even if the computer software is outdated.

WOW, Greenban, sounds like that computer glitch must have been a nightmare! :badpc:
 
Mike said:
I'm not trying to be harsh and I apologize if I came acreoss that way. I realize Diane has a lot of positive contributions to these boards and I understand that you guys want to defend her.

And I am all for allowing others to express their opinions. But I just do not see how these continuous statements add value to the discussion at hand. Peopla ARE affected by this and are discussing possible alternative solutions. The above statement, along with other similar responses such as this



are not, in my opinion, helpful.

I do not open a thread titled "Help -My lending institution has new strict lending guidelines" and state that I am debt free and haven't borrowed money in 9 years so I guess people have to manage their money better.

This is obviously affecting many members. I understand that Diane is not affected but I don't understand why she needs to keep stating that on all of these threads.

Just my opinion. No disrespect intended. :sunny:

I think it is affecting the vocal members on this forum, I like Diane do not transfer either.

I am curious though why so many have complained about the change yet few have a realistic opinion on how to stop the problem of Commercial Renting and still allow the transfers or if they do have not communicated it to DVC.

And Yes we allow Diane to state in these discussions she does not transfer and does not see the concern just as we allow Dean to say over and over that: this will likely hurt the average member more than anyone else ;)
 
Dean said:
And besides, while this is a popular move by DVC, it does remind us that the next change may be as negative to all of us as this is for some. Though I don't think it's nearly as negative for most who are getting blasted as the members here think it is.

I think this is one of the most important statements I have read on this thread!!!
 
Greenban, we did not have any problems with our cards or charging on the 14th, but we did on the 15th in the afternoon. On that day everyone was down. Nothing worked that involved a computer.

Not only did they go down completely at WDW, they went out due to the fact that there was a power outage in California. I am sorry, I am not a computer expert but would you not think they would have different systems for Florida and California. :confused3

I think they are definitely IT challenged. :rolleyes:
 
Just wanted to add my .02 to the discussion...enforcement of the rule doesn't bother me either. It's the same thing as anything else that DVC allows, if they allow it I don't complain. If they don't allow it then I don't have a problem with that either.

I do think that an individual owner should be able to transfer between their contracts but have a hard time understanding why they would need to.
 
simpilotswife said:
Just wanted to add my .02 to the discussion...enforcement of the rule doesn't bother me either. It's the same thing as anything else that DVC allows, if they allow it I don't complain. If they don't allow it then I don't have a problem with that either.

I do think that an individual owner should be able to transfer between their contracts but have a hard time understanding why they would need to.
Just wanted to say, I LOVE your ticker!

And besides, while this is a popular move by DVC, it does remind us that the next change may be as negative to all of us as this is for some. Though I don't think it's nearly as negative for most who are getting blasted as the members here think it is.
Dean is absolutely right about this too. I keep thinking the occupancy limits are going to be the next thing strictly enforced. Really, why not? I guess I have a hard time understanding why a "rule" should be in place if it is allowed to be broken anyway. By the way, Dean has every right to keep repeating his opinion as well. Why not? We keep getting all these threads with virtually the same topic, so repetition is going to happen.
 
dianeschlicht said:
You make this sound like we have to have mega points to keep from "planning", but that is not true. We only have a total of 380, and that certainly isn't a lot in the large scheme of DVC, yet we don't need to do all the transfering in or out to plan and be flexible. The system really does work even if the computer software is outdated.

WOW, Greenban, sounds like that computer glitch must have been a nightmare! :badpc:

Diane, my intent is not to single you out...I assume everyone has their reasons for purchasing whatever number of points they own. Certainly, no member can dictate what amount of points is the right amount for another. Even with the enforcement, I cannot see the merit of paying more dues each month when we can transfer points into our account (as long as the 1 transfer per member/year is still permitted)...call it part of my "plan" if you will.

JMHO, I've no poll stats to post to support my theory but, think that 380 points is a larger contract, @ the very least, more than double the min. that DVC presents to potential members. Hope I don't develop point envy
wink.gif
.

All comes down to enjoying individual memberships to their fullest within DVC permitted usage of plan...one of the wonderful percs of DVC that the sales rep tout: the flexibility. Including the ability to adjust sub-contracts as needs dictate in the future (more or less).

On another issue, human nature to equate a change to status quo as being "unimportant" when it doesn't directly effect you. Agree that many more surprises may be forthcoming to membership. Certainly don't lump tranferring a few points in to complete a ressie (or the need to scrounge up points for family member's special requests) in the same pot as deliberately exceeding occupancy levels, which are based in part on safety issues/fire codes, etc.
 
keishashadow said:
.
JMHO, I've no poll stats to post to support my theory but, think that 380 points is a larger contract, @ the very least, more than double the min. that DVC presents to potential members..
We started with 150 points and discovered that wasn't enough for our needs of getting a studio several times a year. Last year we discovered the joys of a one bedroom,and couldn't believe that we had been depriving ourselves of premium prepaid accomodations that dovetailed into our lifestyle for the rest of our lives. Now at 290 points we are seriously thinking of another add on, to ensure ourselves a one bedroom for every trip, for any time of the year.
We only desire what we can reasonably afford, and plan accordingly. It galls us to no end to think that someone would take profit from, and as a result preclude us from taking a vacation during our holidays.
380 points would be too many for us, but not outside the realistic number needed for larger families wanting comfortable, uncrowded accomodations. A DVC is really a second home, and should be purchased as such.
 
keishashadow said:
*SNIP*
JMHO, I've no poll stats to post to support my theory but, think that 380 points is a larger contract, @ the very least, more than double the min. that DVC presents to potential members. Hope I don't develop point envy
wink.gif
.

All comes down to enjoying individual memberships to their fullest within DVC permitted usage of plan...one of the wonderful percs of DVC that the sales rep tout: the flexibility. Including the ability to adjust sub-contracts as needs dictate in the future (more or less).

*SNIP*
Our 380 is actually 2 contracts...an original of 230 (which I believe used to be the minimum buy in), and an add-on of 150 because 230 wasn't enough for what we were using. Back when they changed the minimum buyin to 150, lots of folks speculated that it would cause all kinds of problems for DVC. Perhaps we are seeing some of that now.

The second part of your quote above is one I'm not sure I understand. What is meant by "adjusting sub-contracts"? I know our guide never mentioned anything like that to us back in '94 when we first toured, and I don't recall him ever saying anything like that since that time either.
 
mello said:
Doesn't it seem incongrouous that it's actually okay to use your points to make a reservation and rent it out to anyone at all at an inflated rate, but it's not okay to transfer them to another member to complete their reservation and be compensated for just enough to cover dues?

Transferred points can be reassigned to another year, and that potentially screws up point allotment for each year. Ie. A year could theoretically accumulate more points than rooms to accomodate them and, based on what I've read here, DVC has no way to track those accumulating points.

Rented points however, don't have that problem. And DVC can evidently keep track of banked/borrowed points. I recall that they reserve the right to put a hold on banking/borrowing -- I assume to prevent too many points from accumulating in one year.

Assigning resort and use year to points as someone mentioned above would take care of that problem by allowing tracking. Then maybe limits to transfers could be set similar to the ones for banking and borrowing.
 















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